Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES F SPORT

spwolf

So if you think ES is uninspiring vehicle, why do you think it competes with LS then at all? It does not.
Reasons that make LS cool are not there in ES.

For people buying cars per yard, ES is great value.

As to the F-Sport, It is certainly targeted to less than 67 crowd, but not much less... ES is by far the most conservative Lexus, and this is on purpose.
Then they can go crazy with cars like UX.

I'm not saying it competes with the LS. I'm saying why get the LS if the ES will be bigger than the LS, and cheaper than the LS, with roughly the same power as the LS500h. Reading through the clublexus forums, not a lot of LS owners are happy with the ES.

If they want to buy a car per yard, the Avalon is a better value.

emptystreets130

I'm not saying it competes with the LS. I'm saying why get the LS if the ES will be bigger than the LS, and cheaper than the LS, with roughly the same power as the LS500h. Reading through the clublexus forums, not a lot of LS owners are happy with the ES.

If they want to buy a car per yard, the Avalon is a better value.

if you read CL, then you know nobody there likes LS at all, and nobody is going to buy one... it is shifting demographics, they moved LS to be aspirational vehicle while ES is large affordable luxury sedan.

Just few posts above you have example while LS has less rear legroom, it is not a vehicle done by the numbers, unlike ES and RX for instance.

ES has roughly the power of S450 and similar 7 series and A8 too. So I guess it is same argument?
It is also more powerful than base engined 5/A6/E class that cost $10k more.

So by those arguments, there is no reason for S, 7, A8, etc to exist either.

emptystreets130

I'm not saying it competes with the LS. I'm saying why get the LS if the ES will be bigger than the LS, and cheaper than the LS, with roughly the same power as the LS500h. Reading through the clublexus forums, not a lot of LS owners are happy with the ES.

If they want to buy a car per yard, the Avalon is a better value.

Having bigger leg room doesn't mean it's bigger than the LS, the LS's rear seats still by fa more comfortable and nicer place to be in - the shoulders area certainly bigger-

For the power, the LS500h is by far more powerful, the materials inside the LS are coming truly from different world, to far from what you will get with the ES

There is no comparison at all, the leg room isn't everything.

emptystreets130

I'm sorry Lexus but what's your target audience for the ES F-Sport. Mid-40s?

Yes. Younger is relative to current ES owners.

The 20-30 crowd will get the IS/UX/NX instead.

Guys, I don't know how to say this but the ES vs LS talk is just not reality. No one that buys a LS seriously considers a ES it could have 50 more inches of leg room. People that want a LS want a LS or S class etc. If Legroom mattered that much they would buy a Avalon and save 60 grand.

I am not talking about the .000001% person who does. The price points and cars are completely different and it won't matter what the ES offers it won't hurt the LS.

mikeavelli

Guys, I don't know how to say this but the ES vs LS talk is just not reality. No one that buys a LS seriously considers a ES it could have 50 more inches of leg room. People that want a LS want a LS or S class etc. If Legroom mattered that much they would buy a Avalon and save 60 grand.

I am not talking about the .000001% person who does. The price points and cars are completely different and it won't matter what the ES offers it won't hurt the LS.

I don't understand how a technical question evolved into a ES vs LS nonsense. They are clearly not comparable cars. I was only asking how the ES has more legroom.

Was chatting about various models with my salesman this morning while my LS500 was detailed for delivery and he said that Lexus has promised dealers an AWD version of the 7ES, but they don't have a firm date yet other than "not this year".

ssun30

I don't understand how a technical question evolved into a ES vs LS nonsense. They are clearly not comparable cars. I was only asking how the ES has more legroom.

This is not in response to your tech question, but @emptystreets130 's post:

emptystreets130

This is coming from the recent article, Lexus ES F Sport Aimed at Younger Audience. Why are they advertising this? Do they really want to consumers to steer away from the LS? I don't know about the rest of you but Lexus marketing is taking a turn for the worse. If I was an LS owner, I don't want to see that my flagship vehicle has less rear leg room than the entry level luxury car that cost about 20-30k less. The ES has grown every generation and it's pretty damn scary. It doesn't feel like a midsize car.

Does Lexus/Toyota have any AWD hybrid sedan? I know the last LS600h was. But any other? I was quite interested in the CH-R, but it only available as FWD HEV or AWD ICE.

Madi

Look at 1:48 in the following video, is that a rear seat back adjuster?

yeah thats cool, I also see that the ES will have heads-up display.

Levi

Does Lexus/Toyota have any AWD hybrid sedan? I know the last LS600h was. But any other? I was quite interested in the CH-R, but it only available as FWD HEV or AWD ICE.

UX250h is coming with AWD, i think same powertrain will soon come to CHR as well, maybe even later this year.

I think some Japanese RWD hybrid Toyota's had e-awd system, based on 300h powertrain + front electric motors.

Levi

Does Lexus/Toyota have any AWD hybrid sedan? I know the last LS600h was. But any other? I was quite interested in the CH-R, but it only available as FWD HEV or AWD ICE.

I guess you mean any non-SUV AWD vehicle ?

Yes, the new prius is a hatchback and it has E-Four system in Japan and many other markets, so if there is any possibility for the ES to come with an AWD system, I think the ES300h is the only one which may get it not the ES350 or any gasoline model.

This one?

This one is a RWD platform, and its AWD is Full-Time AWD, basically RWD

I guess he asked about non-SUV transverse mounted engines with AWD :)

Madi

This one is a RWD platform, and its AWD is Full-Time AWD, basically RWD

I guess he asked about non-SUV transverse mounted engines with AWD :)

they dont seem to sell them outside Japan and few countries around it? Prius and Crown or whatever else had that 300h powertrain with RWD and e-awd

spwolf

UX250h is coming with AWD, i think same powertrain will soon come to CHR as well, maybe even later this year.

I think some Japanese RWD hybrid Toyota's had e-awd system, based on 300h powertrain + front electric motors.

The Crown Hybrid 4WD uses a conventional transaxle after the hybrid system output shaft and is a full-time AWD system. To me it's something they should do on next-gen high power (>150kW) transverse hybrids like the Highlander and RX. E-Four is just way too heavy and cumbersome.

ssun30

The Crown Hybrid 4WD uses a conventional transaxle after the hybrid system output shaft and is a full-time AWD system. To me it's something they should do on next-gen high power (>150kW) transverse hybrids like the Highlander and RX. E-Four is just way too much effort for very little gain.

Did they change the layout of the Crown engine ?



As I know the Crown has longitudinal mounted engine, and its Hybrid is basically the same as of the GS or LS

Its a RWD mid-size vehicle, or as I call it re-skinned GS o_O

ssun30

The Crown Hybrid 4WD uses a conventional transaxle after the hybrid system output shaft and is a full-time AWD system. To me it's something they should do on next-gen high power (>150kW) transverse hybrids like the Highlander and RX. E-Four is just way too much effort for very little gain.

well it is certainly only way to make it right, but i thought it is much heavier than e-four? Also it would ruin MPG, so it does depend on the vehicle I guess.

Madi

Did they change the layout of the Crown engine ?

No it's still longitudinal. If you don't read Japanese you can tell from the direction of the arrows. Also, the GS is a re-skinned Crown not the other way around.

spwolf

well it is certainly only way to make it right, but i thought it is much heavier than e-four? Also it would ruin MPG, so it does depend on the vehicle I guess.

Current E-Four does not save weight; it was lighter in theory but haven't materialized yet. Maybe with TNGA updates it can reach parity with traditional systems. Yes E-Four will have some MPG advantage since it's part-time, but it will be carrying a lot of dead weight as well. If they connect the hybrid system to DTV-AWD it will achieve the same goal while still leaving the possibility of locking the vehicle in AWD mode.

Madi

Did they change the layout of the Crown engine ?

No it's still longitudinal. If you don't read Japanese you can tell from the direction of the arrows. Also, the GS is a re-skinned Crown not the other way around.

spwolf

well it is certainly only way to make it right, but i thought it is much heavier than e-four? Also it would ruin MPG, so it does depend on the vehicle I guess.

Current E-Four does not save weight; it was lighter in theory but haven't materialized yet. Maybe with TNGA updates it can reach parity with traditional systems. Yes E-Four will have some MPG advantage since it's part-time, but it will be carrying a lot of dead weight as well. If they connect the hybrid system to DTV-AWD it will achieve the same goal while still leaving the possibility of locking the vehicle in AWD mode.

Thanks for all the replies. I have done some research and can now myself answer to my own question. It gets harder to find technical information in our times, because what sells are not technical specification, but marketing jargon. Anyway, I'll leave TMC terminology aside, because it is confusing and call everything as it is.

TMC has basically two AWD systems for ICE versions:
On-Demand AWD: front transverse engine with mechanical linkage to all wheels (F4-T)
Part/Full-Time AWD: front longitudinal engine with mechanical linkage to all wheels (F4-L)

TMC also has two AWD systems for HEV versions:
For FF-T layout: unlike the ICE versions, AWD HEVs have no mechanical linkage to rear wheels. Rear wheels are powered by an electric motor, in addition to the front electric motor. So AWD HEV with FF-T layout, just has an additional motor at the rear axle.
For FR-L layout: is uses the mechanical components of F4-L versions. It is just adds the electric motor between the engine and the transmission.

So to answer to my question: There are no TMC cars or sedans (with exception of the Prius that @Madi mentioned) with FF-T layout that use the AWD system of HEV CUVs/SUVs. But technically they could, and it is likely the ES will get it. It will also be a 'first' for TMC. However, (P)HEV versions of FF-T layout will never have any mechanical linkage to rear wheels. This is noticeable in the whole industry, recently announced by Infiniti, and quite probably also the future of Audi and Subaru even with FF-L layout.

But there are indeed TMC cars or sedans with FR-L layout that are HEV and have AWD. The first car of this kind was the LS 600h. Technically every Lexus (or Toyota) HEV that has an FR-L layout could have AWD. And it is indeed true that there are the IS 300h, is available, not only as RWD, but also as AWD in some markets. What is interesting, is that the Toyota Crown that is related to the Lexus GS, has an AWD version of the 4 cylinder hybrid, but the GS does not. A GS450h AWD could have been a technical possibility, but there was probably no business case for it.


Regarding TMCs 'new' AWD systems, there is nothing really new. The 'novelty', regardless if mechanical or electric power, is torque management, known as torque vectoring. But there are not enough details to know what type of torque vectoring. For reminder of the types of diffs:

• no torque distribution control (open/locked diff)
  
• passive torque distribution control (mechanical differential)
• passive torque distribution control (passive braking)
  
• braking control (active braking)
• torque vectoring control (active differential)

Levi

• passive torque distribution control (mechanical differential)
• passive torque distribution control (passive braking)
  
• braking control (active braking)
• torque vectoring control (active differential)

new system is likely more affordable than regular systems and fuel saving, but yeah it can distribute torque to each wheel individually.

I mean Toyota has owned Torsen for a long time now, 14 years or so, there is no reason for them to be able to adopt single, better system across the board.

Otherwise, they have previously used various different systems for various vehicles, for instance most of their Japanese vehicles, even cheap Yaris, have full time AWD system.

OK I agree an AWD will be nice with this.

bogglo

OK I agree an AWD will be nice with this.

car looks stunning for the price.

In regards to this whole issue, I initially thought Lexus was going to introduce a competitor AWD system to things like 4MATIC, xDrive, Quattro or SH-AWD? I wasn't fully following on this specific subject on the thread, because I didn't get anything surprising from this. I am a huge fan of technology, but nothing made me perk up.

So can someone clarify? Is Lexus going to actually introduce a system that rivals to competitors or is it simply an improved based of the traction control based AWD system that these things had?

F1 Silver Arrows

In regards to this whole issue, I initially thought Lexus was going to introduce a competitor AWD system to things like 4MATIC, xDrive, Quattro or SH-AWD? I wasn't fully following on this specific subject on the thread, because I didn't get anything surprising from this. I am a huge fan of technology, but nothing made me perk up.

So can someone clarify? Is Lexus going to actually introduce a system that rivals to competitors or is it simply an improved based of the traction control based AWD system that these things had?

They just introduced new torque vectoring system that mechanically sends power to each wheel individually:

The new Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system is used in gasoline engine vehicles. By adopting a torque vectoring mechanism, which independently distributes torque to the left and right rear wheels according to driving conditions, the Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system enables the driver to steer the vehicle exactly as intended. It achieves high off-road performance even on the toughest roads. It also incorporates a disconnect mechanism, which features the world's first ratchet-type dog clutches1 on both the front and rear wheel shafts. These clutches stop the drive system rotations, which transmit driving force to rear wheels when in 2WD mode, significantly reducing energy loss and improving fuel efficiency.

https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain2018/4wd/

It is optional on Rav4 - only for offroad edition, and featured on UX 2.0l
They also introduced new e-four that can send more power to the back.

They are also missing another model from the list, not sure what could that be? Base models Rav4 will have traction control based system but it is not listed below as "new".


LS500 and LS500h AWD are of course full time awd, as always with their RWD platforms.

pretty sure the video shows C-HR and UX, C-HR with standard electronic based awd and UX with new one:

Grill's not my cup of tea but looks promising performance-wise

bogglo

OK I agree an AWD will be nice with this.

As is tradition, real world pics/video looks much better than Toyota's press shots. I have to say though, wow that looks gorgeous! Exterior-wise, it looks as expensive as a GS.

The surfacing, the detailing, the total package...a total homerun for the price. I expect the interior in real life looks better than press shots as well.

F1 Silver Arrows

In regards to this whole issue, I initially thought Lexus was going to introduce a competitor AWD system to things like 4MATIC, xDrive, Quattro or SH-AWD? I wasn't fully following on this specific subject on the thread, because I didn't get anything surprising from this. I am a huge fan of technology, but nothing made me perk up.

So can someone clarify? Is Lexus going to actually introduce a system that rivals to competitors or is it simply an improved based of the traction control based AWD system that these things had?

Toyota doesn't do technology for technology's sake. That's not the Toyota (or Lexus) way.

Toyota is traditionally quite secretive about future product. Now in the Akio Toyoda era arguably more so than before. Will Lexus introduce such a system? We won't know until we know. The Dynamic Torque Vectoring system recently introduced by Toyota is arguably already very close to the competition you mentioned. Toyota's new Dynamic Torque Vectoring system is a mechanical AWD system that also has a mechanical disconnect. So it's a part-time mechanical torque vectoring AWD system. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since torque vectoring AWD systems by their very nature only send power where it is needed.

CIF

Toyota doesn't do technology for technology's sake. That's not the Toyota (or Lexus) way.

Toyota is traditionally quite secretive about future product. Now in the Akio Toyoda era arguably more so than before. Will Lexus introduce such a system? We won't know until we know. The Dynamic Torque Vectoring system recently introduced by Toyota is arguably already very close to the competition you mentioned. Toyota's new Dynamic Torque Vectoring system is a mechanical AWD system that also has a mechanical disconnect. So it's a part-time mechanical torque vectoring AWD system. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since torque vectoring AWD systems by their very nature only send power where it is needed.

I am aware about the mechanical disconnect. The very important question for me is that once it does disconnect, in basic form, are only the rear wheels powered (indicating this RWD based) or to the front wheels (indicating this is FWD based) or it can go both ways depending on the model? If it only goes to front wheels for the cars that this system is introduced in, I'm thinking that Lexus is moving towards Audi in terms of drivetrain layout, but in terms of sportiness and pure luxury, shifting towards Mercedes-Benz.