Internal Combustion Engines Remain Priority at Toyota

Posted by Kevin on April 24th, 2018

In an interview with Automotive News, new Toyota powertrain boss Hiohisa Kishi outlines the company’s strategy in keeping internal combustion engines competitive as the auto industry shifts towards electrification. Unsurprisingly, hybrid technology will play a major role, with Toyota developing engines that can work on their own or as a gas-electric powertrain:

Kishi believes EVs will still cost more, even in 2030. Gasoline-electric hybrids, by contrast, have already reached parity with gasoline-only engines, when fuel economy is taken into account, he said. While it is technically feasible to make a gasoline engine that delivers the same fuel economy as a hybrid, it would cost more, he said.

“An internal combustion engine, with things added to equal the fuel economy performance, can actually be more costly than a hybrid,” Kishi said. “Therefore, in terms of technology, it’s possible to make happen. But we don’t think it’s appealing from the marketing perspective.”

It’s expected that new engines and transmissions will power 80% of new Toyota vehicles by 2023, and that the overall number of engine types will be reduced by 40%.

Electrification remains a top priority, with more than 10 EVs planned for released by the early 2020s — even so, Kishi believes 90% of all Toyota vehicles will still have a gas or gas-electric powertrain by 2030.

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S
OK, now let's start from the bottom because we want to leave the best for the last. We can be confident that in the image above, the engines are ranked by their displacement. Note that Kei car engine (660cc) won't be in this lineup since it belongs to Daihatsu's DNGA. Also these engines will likely have exactly the same tech package, hence A25'A'/V35'A'. The 'B' versions that includes more exotic technologies such as HCCI and Variable Compression should be post-2021.

Below the A20A there are two engines that obviously need to be introduced for TMC's small cars to replace the KR/NR/ZR series. The first one is obviously a 1.0L Inline 3, it will basically an updated 1KR-FE, although it's unknown how much tech package it is going to receive. The KR already has ESTEC package built-in, but D-4S and Dual VVT-i (with VVT-iW on intake valves) are both somewhat expensive for a very low-end application. Expect the same 40% thermal efficiency and 50-60 kW of power.

The second one can either be a 1.0L turbocharged I3, or a 1.5L naturally aspirated I4, although I'm leaning towards the latter, since Toyota once said they won't make a turbocharged engine for the Prius until they can achieve 45+% thermal efficiency. Since this lineup includes engines that are already production-ready or are in production-engineering phase (i.e. no experimental concepts/lab prototypes), a 1.5L NA is much more likely. It will have the full Dynamic Force package since its competitors will be pretty advanced as well. Expect 75kW(100hp) for the hybrid variant and 90kW(120hp) for the gas-only variant.

The one between the A20A and A25A is almost certainly the A20A-FTS. I think in this lineup, turbocharging accounts for a separate model instead of a variant, since the application and design could be very different from the NA version. In this entire lineup, the A20A-FTS is THE MOST important engine for Lexus because a 2.0T is the golden standard for every compact-to-full size vehicle regardless of bodystyle. It's the winning formula in every market and used by every manufacturer in existence. The 8AR-FTS we have right now is neither powerful nor responsive, and the efficiency (36%) is mediocre at best. It needs at least 200kW(270hp) to be competitive against underrated German competitors but it would probably require premium fuel to reach that level of specific output (Nissan can do it on regular because it has variable compression). For Toyota models, 180kW(240hp) on regular is sufficient.

Between the naturally aspirated A25A and V35A-FTS there is one engine what this forum calls the 'main workhorse engine' (though it kind of isn't), a long overdue replacement for the now over-a-decade-old GR series. Two possibilities exist: the preferred solution is the six cylinder V30A-FTS while the less desirable (but financially more reasonable for Toyota) solution is the four cylinder A25A-FTS. Either design could fit perfectly in the 225-270kW(300-370hp) range, the former benefiting from a bigger displacement and the latter capable of using twin-scroll turbochargers. Regardless of the final choice, this engine is crucial for Lexus' performance models.

But the surprise here? Just as we spread doomsday arguments like Lexus doesn't want V8, we see not one, but two bigger engines sitting above the V35A-FTS! Two of them! This is entirely left to your imagination, guys, because two is a LOT of possibilities for a very small market! So we won't have a naturally aspirated V8 with all these talks about downsizing, or will we? Is Lexus listening to the enthusiasts and decides to keep the good old big V8 and update it with more tech? We certainly will have a V8TT after all, but at what displacement and what level of power?
S
Now onto the hybrids. Not a lot of needs to be said here.

The smallest one is obviously THS-II (1.5L). A 100kW 'low power' alternative to the 130kW/180hp class THS-II (2.0L). It will be used on all new small hybrid vehicles although the possibility of it replacing the 1.8L THS-II on the Prius is questionable. Toyota definitely wants a bigger upgrade for the Prius after 2021 (probably using it to introduce Mk.2 Dynamic Force 'B' engines).

The one between the 2.5L THS-II and multi-stage is a high-power transverse hybrid powertrain for the next-gen ES/RX. This will also possibly be TMC's first turbo hybrid, combining the A20A-FTS with a high-output Li-ion battery pack for about 240kW.

It's interesting, though, that their hybrid plans comes to a full stop after the 3.5L Multistage. Two things we know for sure, are that Toyota's GR department is working on a very high performance hybrid drivetrain, and that Lexus is working on a hybridized V35A-FTS. If this lineup is to remain this way, does this mean those higher end hybrid system will come after 2021?

Or Toyota has a different plan, namely EV only for high-end applications?
A
Very informative!
Good to hear they’ll have to models on top of V35A.
Any news about a pure EV power train yet?
krew
This is excellent, @ssun30 -- really enjoyed reading your breakdown, very informative!

amoschen7
Any news about a pure EV power train yet?
No details yet on an EV powertrain.
Gecko
@ssun30, thanks so much for this wonderful analysis. Great breakdown!

I do believe we will see another V8 because ToMoCo has enough use cases to justify it - we already know the next gen Tundra and Sequoia are in development, plus there is Land Cruiser, LX, and then the same block could be used for an F V8 for LC/LS/LF-1. Perhaps an updated/detuned version could also replace the 5.0L V8 in the LC 500.

A few questions...

What is the difference between the engine code starting with an "A" or a "V"? It seems to me that naturally aspirated engines start with A and turbocharged ones start with V, but we haven't seen enough models to know for sure. What do you think?

If that's true, I think it would be V20A-FTS for the 2.0T and potentially V25A-FTS for a 2.5L TT I4, right? And then V30A-FTS if they go with a bigger/different engine compared to the 2.5L TT I4.

The most interesting ones to me are the 2.0T and V30A-FTS or V25A-FTS

Toyota has a way of leapfrogging everyone with engines when they unveil an entirely new powertrain line (think about the GR V6 in 2005), so I am expecting these engines to be very powerful indeed. It would not surprise me to see a 420-450hp V8 for Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser and LX.
krew
krew

New 2.0 Liter Engine & Hybrid System Coming Soon to Lexus Vehicles
[​IMG]

Big tech news today!
View the original article post
S
Toyota announced a raft of new technologies, all of which will likely debut in Lexus UX and Toyota Corolla/Auris (Europe) this upcoming Geneva show (in 12 days or so).

What new at Toyota:
- New 2.0l petrol engine, downsized 2.5l. 169hp with all the tech like D4S, etc. Might come in new Corolla as well, since they are calling it new Toyota world engine.
The new engine realizes equal or greater power performance while realizing best-in-class fuel economy accomplished through the 2.5-liter Dynamic Force Engine and with Direct Shift-CVT. Dynamic Force Engine 2.0-liter developed as a core engine of Toyota.
- New 250h hybrid engine, again downsized from new Camry Hybrid. 178hp total power.
The new 2.0-liter system implements technologies that allow for a smaller, lighter, and more energy efficient structure. A 2.5-liter system was previously introduced in the redesigned Camry.
- New Direct Shift CVT - with starting planetary gear for better performance at lower speeds + higher ratio at higher. They claim shifts are now faster than competitor DCT.
https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain2018/cvt/

- New Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that can transfer power between left and right wheels, thus solving that issue with part time awds when one wheel is not touching the ground. They have a demo between old and new system, looks like old is C-HR AWD while new is new Lexus UX.


- New E-Four system with 30% more torque on rear wheels and better integration of all systems during regular driving, cornering.

- New 6sp MT with rev matching on both downshifts and upshifts.

https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain2018/feature/index.html
https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/corporate/21179861.html

A lot more new engines left to reveal by the end of the year as well as new AWD systems:



S
Will 2.0l actually come to Lexus in USA? I think dynamic torque AWD and e-four changes certainly will, but UX will likely get that 2.5l 208hp petrol and not 2.0l.
S
@ssun30 Toyota already updated 1.0l KR in upcoming Aygo facelift, and they also did another ESTEC engine in 1.5l NA category last year with Yaris so those two are not on these lists for this years changes. It seems they want only all new engines to show there for this year. They also have new 1.0l KR turbo in small cars in Japan since last year or two.

So those two small engines wont be 1.0l KR or 1.5l NR Estec engines. But something else less than 2.0l? Since new Auris is being announced there in Geneva, if there was something new there it would be announced now. So it is something else.

- As to the hybrid, it is certainly 1.5l, but it wont be more powerful than Prius hybrid of course... it is new version of Yaris Hybrid engine. Toyota also plans "simpler" hybrids likely for small suv and Aygo.

- Also look at how they have shown new 3.5l hybrid in LC/LS - as transmission not engine. Which means there will be a new 300h or 350h coming in there this year? They already announced that they will build new Highlander Hybrid 4cly engine in the US, so I would guess that it has to be stronger than 208hp from Camry. So maybe that will be their first turbo based hybrid that will be announced for upcoming Rav4 later this year? Dual-hybrid strategy for Europe, and all that.

As to the V8's @Gecko I assume one will be for Tundra and other trucks and one will be for Lexus F vehicles.
Ian Schmidt
Fascinating. So an LC F with a TTV8 + 6MT could be a thing? That would certainly put Ze Germans on notice, especially if it's priced right.
CIF
  • CIF
    CIF
  • February 26, 2018
Thanks for starting this topic ssun30.

So a few things to keep in mind:

- there won't be any updated previous-gen gas engines making the master TNGA diagram Toyota has shown. TNGA engines are all new engines. So whatever engines with displacement of less than 2.0L that will debut, will be all new. The exceptions here being the THS-II 1.8L and the multi-stage THS-II systems, which both use non-TNGA gas engines. However the good thing is that engines can easily be replaced/updated on Toyota's THS systems. I fully expect the multi-stage THS-II to get the V35A engine soon, along with the 1.8L THS-II either getting a Dynamic Force gas engine, or being replaced in usage by the 2.0L THS-II Dynamic Force system.

- the new torque vectoring AWD system is not some "eLSD" system or whatever else people may be thinking of. This is not some "open diff" rehashed system. This would be like saying Toyota's KDSS is some "e" system. This new torque vectoring AWD sysytem has two physical clutches on both the front and rear shafts, which are part of a disconnect mechanism. Toyota otherwise was very vague on details so far. It may have a mechanical lock ability. It is also paired to a new mysterious AWD Integrated Management system, which Toyota also did not detail. This likely hints at some sort of terrain management features. Also in the demonstration video, based on the Rav4 rims, the 'current model' is almost certainly a Rav4, while the 'new model' isn't really important, as it could be a number of vehicles. What's important is the capability of the system. The new E-Four 4WD system is indeed what some of you are thinking of, in that it is an "eLSD open-diff" type system, as the E-Four system does not have physical clutches and physical linkages.

- I feel a significant achievement that needs more emphasis is the overall fuel economy numbers (along with the power numbers) that Toyota is touting here. In real world driving, Toyota's 1.8L current THS-II in the 4th gen Prius is arguably the most efficient hybrid system in real-world driving. Toyota claims this new TNGA 2.0L THS-II system achieves 9% more fuel efficiency than the 1.8L THS-II. That is very impressive, considering this new 2.0L THS-II offers much more power than the 1.8L THS-II. Arguably, the 1.8L THS-II system shouldn't even be on Toyota's TNGA diagram, because it still uses the previous-gen 2ZR engine, which is not a TNGA engine.

Furthermore, the new 2.0L Dynamic Force gas engine (A20A-FKS?) with Direct Shift CVT achieves 18% improved fuel economy over the 2ZR-FE with CVT. The 2ZR-FE is already among the class leaders in fuel economy, and this Dynamic Force 2.0L is a HUGE step up in from the 2ZR. All this while achieving very impressive power figures. It achieves better power and torque figures than Honda's 2.0L naturally aspirated engine, while achieving better fuel economy. Furthermore, it achieves comparable HP to Honda's 1.5L turbocharged engine in regular Civic trim, while also achieving better fuel economy. This is impressive as turbo engines often achieve overrated government fuel economy figures, and tend to under-perform in real world fuel economy. In Civic Si trim, Honda's 1.5L turbo gets much better power numbers, but at the expense of greatly reduced fuel economy. This new Dynamic Force engine achieves better power and fuel economy than Ford's 2.0L 4 cylinder naturally aspirated engine. It even achieves better power and fuel economy than Mazda's praised 2.0L Skyactive-G engine. The Camry with the 2.5L A25A-FKS already achieves 2.0L/1.8L compact car fuel economy while being a 2.5L engine with plenty of power in a midsize sedan. The 1.5L turbo Accord achieves similar power and fuel economy levels, but the Accord 1.5L must resort to a CVT in order to do this, while the Camry has an 8-speed with the A25A-FKS. Also these are EPA numbers, and it's very possible the Camry beats the Accord 1.5L in real world fuel economy.

We can take the current Corolla as an example. In XLE trim, the Corolla with the 2ZR-FE and CVT gets 28/36 EPA mileage. If we apply Toyota's 18% fuel economy improvement that the new 2.0L Dynamic Force gets with Direct Shift CVT, we get about 33/42 or 33/43 EPA mileage. This would be class-leading, beating even the Civic sedan with the regular tune 1.5L turbo and CVT. It would beat the Civic's fuel economy while achieving comparable power figures. Also likely a better overall driving experience, as Toyota's new Direct Shift CVT is a superior design to Honda's CVT. Keep in mind these figures would simply be having the 2.0L Dynamic Force with Direct Shift CVT in the current Corolla. The coming next-gen Corolla may have better aerodynamics and other improvements, further helping fuel economy. These are near-hybrid fuel economy numbers when you think about it.

- I have a theory now that any TNGA engines with turbos might be limited mostly to Lexus models and select overseas Toyota models. Many of us have theorized that Toyota is jumping on the turbo bandwagon across the board, but so far there is little concrete evidence of this. Yes there is the 8AR-FTS, a non-TNGA design. It is featured in mostly Lexus models, and only a small select number of Toyota models in a few markets. Not on any Toyota models in North America. The V35A-FTS engine obviously is exclusive so far to the 5LS. So aside from Lexus, my theory is that any turbo TNGA engines will be offered only on a small select number of Toyota models in markets where engine displacement tax is very significant. Also given the disappointing real world performance of the 8AR-FTS, and even so far the mixed reactions the V35A-FTS is getting in the 5LS, Toyota may not be planning a significant turbo engine rollout. So I expect the rest of the TNGA engines yet to debut to be mostly naturally aspirated. Electric turbos would solve many of the current problems the 8AR-FTS and V35A-FTS have, but who knows if we will ever see electric turbos from Toyota at this point. So I theorize the TNGA workhorse replacement engines of the GR and UR will probably be naturally aspirated. When I say workhorse engines, I mean the base, core engines powering the majority of Toyota V6 and V8 models, along with some Lexus models. For example, the workhorse replacement of the GR series may be a V35A-FKS non-turbo engine. I could be wrong here, but I hope I'm not.

- On Toyota's 4WD master diagram, most of the 4WD and AWD systems are blanked-out, so they are yet to debut. I imagine then that we will be getting a number of new systems for Toyota's BOF vehicles, and possibly even a more hardcore specialized system for Toyota's top BOF off-roading vehicles. This is exciting to think about, as that 4WD master diagram holds a lot of mystery. This could be a long-shot, but just imagine if Toyota came out with a new hardcore 4WD system dedicated specifically to Toyota's TRD Pro lineup, or select Land Cruiser models? I'm sure that would keep the Jeep engineers up at night. Overall though that master 4WD diagram, along with the master powertrain diagram strongly hint at significant new TNGA technologies coming for Toyota's body-on-frame vehicles.

---

Overall I am happy to see more new TNGA engines debuting that are naturally aspirated. Also happy to see other exciting powertrain technologies debuting, from the new AWD systems, to the new CVT and manual transmissions, to the new hybrid system. As a long time Toyota fan, I'm beginning to feel some of the same excitement I had back in the mid 2000s when Toyota had a huge wave of new technologies, powertrains, and new and redesigned models that took the world markets by storm. Yes quality and durability did suffer somewhat as Toyota stretched itself too thin then, but it was fun to see Toyota dominating the competition so much.
S
Ian Schmidt
Fascinating. So an LC F with a TTV8 + 6MT could be a thing? That would certainly put Ze Germans on notice, especially if it's priced right.
nope... this is for up to 280nm applications, so 4cly engines.
Ian Schmidt
The two spots on the chart above the TTV6 are 4 cylinder? I must be horribly misunderstanding.
S
Ian Schmidt
The two spots on the chart above the TTV6 are 4 cylinder? I must be horribly misunderstanding.
No, most certainly V8... but this specific 6 speed is for vehicles under 280nm, so 2.0l, 2.5l NA and less.

You have to consider that MT is #1 transmission in many countries, like in Europe, so of course they are constantly developing new ones.
A
Gecko
@ssun30, thanks so much for this wonderful analysis. Great breakdown!

I do believe we will see another V8 because ToMoCo has enough use cases to justify it - we already know the next gen Tundra and Sequoia are in development, plus there is Land Cruiser, LX, and then the same block could be used for an F V8 for LC/LS/LF-1. Perhaps an updated/detuned version could also replace the 5.0L V8 in the LC 500.

A few questions...

What is the difference between the engine code starting with an "A" or a "V"? It seems to me that naturally aspirated engines start with A and turbocharged ones start with V, but we haven't seen enough models to know for sure. What do you think?

If that's true, I think it would be V20A-FTS for the 2.0T and potentially V25A-FTS for a 2.5L TT I4, right? And then V30A-FTS if they go with a bigger/different engine compared to the 2.5L TT I4.

The most interesting ones to me are the 2.0T and V30A-FTS or V25A-FTS

Toyota has a way of leapfrogging everyone with engines when they unveil an entirely new powertrain line (think about the GR V6 in 2005), so I am expecting these engines to be very powerful indeed. It would not surprise me to see a 420-450hp V8 for Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser and LX.
I’m guessing the first V and A in V35A and A25A is for differentiating V and L engine layout because you already had the T in FTS for turbo.
Ian Schmidt
spwolf
You have to consider that MT is #1 transmission in many countries, like in Europe, so of course they are constantly developing new ones.
True, I just didn't expect a 6-speed to be used with smaller engines.
S
Ian Schmidt
True, I just didn't expect a 6-speed to be used with smaller engines.
heh, i think since past 10 years or so, only Toyota in Europe with 5 speed is Aygo's 1.0 68hp 3cly engine.

Everything else got 6mt... from 1.33 99hp, to 1.2t 112hp and 1.5l 111hp.
S
Gecko
What is the difference between the engine code starting with an "A" or a "V"? It seems to me that naturally aspirated engines start with A and turbocharged ones start with V, but we haven't seen enough models to know for sure. What do you think?
I'm leaning towards A for inline engine and V for V-engine. Type of aspiration is encoded in the suffix F'T'S.

spwolf
Toyota already updated 1.0l KR in upcoming Aygo facelift, and they also did another ESTEC engine in 1.5l NA category last year with Yaris so those two are not on these lists for this years changes. It seems they want only all new engines to show there for this year. They also have new 1.0l KR turbo in small cars in Japan since last year or two.
I completely missed that part. The KR and NR updates are indeed somewhat new. But this could also mean their Dynamic Force update could come very late (2020-2021).
A senior engineer at TMEC said that they were not very happy with the 8NR-FTS design since it does not deliver the power density and fuel efficiency desired. It was just an interim solution for turbo-loving markets like EU and China. The problem is its very small displacement, or rather displacement per cylinder. 300cc is very little space to work with so they couldn't extract a lot of efficiency out of it. The general rule is you want as high displacement per cylinder as possible until you start losing reliability due to stroke length and vibrations. Each engine layout has a different 'sweet spot'. For I4 this is between 350 and 600 cc/cylinder. I3 rules in the sub-1.5L segment. At 330-430 cc/cylinder (1.0-1.3L), the efficiency is unbeatable by I4 but at 1.5L (the 500cc/cylinder 'magic number'), containing vibration becomes more challenging and some engineers may choose I4 for better NVH and scalability.
So I think TMC wants to try following the winning recipe and replace the 8NR-FTS with a 1.2 or 1.3T Inline-3. GM is using its new 1.3T unit to replace a lot of I4 (turbocharged included) engines.

spwolf
As to the hybrid, it is certainly 1.5l, but it wont be more powerful than Prius hybrid of course...
The Aqua/Yaris Hybrid already makes 75kW, so 90kW is not a significant bump considering the drivetrain could also be used on slightly bigger vehicles like Auris and Corolla.

spwolf
Also look at how they have shown new 3.5l hybrid in LC/LS - as transmission not engine.
It is labeled as a hybrid system, not a transmission, so it counts towards the 6 hybrids.

CIF
Overall I am happy to see more new TNGA engines debuting that are naturally aspirated.
One thing that plays in their favor is China cancelling road tax deduction for sub-1.6L engines and producing engines locally lets them completely bypass the displacement sales tax. The nation is moving towards a emission-based system so Japan will be the last place where displacement tax is a concern.
Still the GR replacement cannot be a V35A-FKS, because the GR series is designed for as high specific output as possible (80hp/L BoL and 90+hp/L EoL). Dynamic Force slightly sacrifices specific output for efficiency, so a V35A-FKS will be less powerful (~280hp) than the 2GR(301-318hp). Obviously nobody wants the IS/ES/RX to have even less power than right now.
Also this engine will find itself on a BoF truck, which could use way more torque low-down than what the naturally aspirated 3.5L offers.
F1 Silver Arrows
I don't know if this could be possible. But looking at the diagram with the powertrain models, it seems that there are only 3 engines that will have a V configuration. The rest being inline engines. Other than that, I believe the only engines above the V35A-FTS being the two purported V8's. I don't think we're having a 3.0L engine or a naturally aspirated version of the V35A-FTS. I think the 6 cylinder and the 8 cylinder cars are going all on out turbo.

This isn't bad. Since the 6 and 8 cylinder cars can really go take the competition to their competitors. The turbo/naturally aspirated 4 cylinders with hybrid motors in conjunction make sense. The global market and workhorse Toyota and smaller Lexus models would be having a share in this. I just don't think the naturally aspirated 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder cars will be able to push the envelope reliably, smoothly, sportively and still have that signature creaminess that these engines were known for.

In the case of the 6 cylinders, I highly doubt that they will be able to push further than the 340-350 horsepower barrier in a naturally aspirated form in the 3.5L unit. Same story for the 8 cylinder cars. I don't think they would be able to go higher than give or take 510 hp for the same reasons I mentioned above by simply staying at 5.7L/4.6L/5.0L. These things MUST go along with turbocharging. They will honestly be able to wipe their whole competition like this. Knowing Toyota, when an event like this occurs...... like the 90's or the mid 2000's. Going with what happened then, I seriously believe that competition will be crushed under Toyota/Lexus for a solid 5-6 years until other manufacturers are able to react.
S
F1 Silver Arrows
I don't know if this could be possible. But looking at the diagram with the powertrain models, it seems that there are only 3 engines that will have a V configuration. The rest being inline engines. Other than that, I believe the only engines above the V35A-FTS being the two purported V8's. I don't think we're having a 3.0L engine or a naturally aspirated version of the V35A-FTS. I think the 6 cylinder and the 8 cylinder cars are going all on out turbo.
Good call. The engine between the V35A-FTS and A25A-FKS looks like an inline engine (consistent with the smaller models). So A25A-FTS it is then.

Bad news: no mainstream V6 for the IS/ES/NX/RX.

Good news: the V6 ES F-Sport will be a damn powerful beast with V35A-FTS. 416hp+AWD=easily outruns GS-F on drag strips. Corners maybe not so much.

This is pretty much in line (no pun intended) with their strategy of charging premium for cylinders. Oh you want a smoother engine than the inline-4? How about 100 more horsepower and a torque vectoring AWD? And please take those fancy 20-inch wheels and a carbon fibre wing as well. Plus, you get all that V6 smoothness.

This is how everyone sell cars these days right?

F1 Silver Arrows
Going with what happened then, I seriously believe that competition will be crushed under Toyota/Lexus for a solid 5-6 years until other manufacturers are able to react.
This sounds hilarious, but the possibility of Lexus restarting a horsepower war is non-zero. They are the ones who started it since the original GS400. The horsepower war is only getting worse with electrification. In China we get 542hp hybrid family SUVs starting from $40,000 before incentives. And of course everyone gets the bull/stallion-slaying Model S.
F1 Silver Arrows
ssun30
Good call. The engine between the V35A-FTS and A25A-FKS looks like an inline engine (consistent with the smaller models). So A25A-FTS it is then.

Bad news: no 3.0 V6TT for the ES/NX/RX.

Good news: the AWD ES/RX will be a damn powerful beast with V35A-FTS.
Yeah! I share the same views as you. But I knew deep down that the 3.0L would never happen (at least not this time). So now that we have most of the engines confirmed. Assuming we know that there will be a turbo V8, I assume it would look like this. I will be leaving some blanks for us to make speculations. Some of these are what I wish to happen, but I still have issues with their lineup. I will explain after.

UX:
UX200 - Brand new 2.0L 4-cylinder engine
UX250 - 2.5L NA?
UX250h - 2.5L hybrid

IS:
IS300 - 2.0L turbo
IS350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
IS F - 4.0L TTV8

RC:
RC300 - 2.0L turbo
RC350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
RC F - 4.0L TTV8

NX:
NX300 - 2.0L turbo
NX300h - 2.5L hybrid
NX350/400 - 3.5L TTV6

ES:
ES300 - 2.0L turbo
ES300h - 2.5L hybrid
ES350/400 - 3.5L TTV6

RX:
RX350h -3.5L TTV6 hybrid
RX350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
RX F - 4.0 L TTV8

GX:
GX500 - 3.5L TTV6
GX550 - 4.0L TTV8
GX F - 4.0L TTV8

GS:
GS300 - 2.0L turbo
GS350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
GS350h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
GS F - 4.0L TTV8

This is what I think will end up for the LC......

LC:
LC500 - 3.5L TTV6
LC550 - 4.0L TTV8
LC500h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
LC F - 4.0 L TTV8

LS:
LS500 - 3.5L TTV6
LS550 - 4.0L TTV8
LS500h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
LS F - 4.0L TTV8

LX:
LX500 - 3.5L TTV6
LX550 - 4.0L TTV8
LX F - 4.0L TTV8

LF-1:
??? 500 -3.5L TTV6
??? 550 -4.0L TTV8
??? h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
??? F - 4.0L TTV8

Phew! Now that's done, I still have one major issue that pops out to me.

Why isn't the NX on the IS platform? This confuses me to no end. It shows that the bottom lineup has no lineage. My problem with Lexus is that they need to have a linear lineup. A SUV, sedan and a coupe for each tier. I will exclude UX because UX is a special global model to push for fuel efficient vehicles. I was so tempted to put an F model on the NX but it simply won't work because it will ruin the balance of the car. My problem is that it isn't RWD.

I am not sure here but I strongly believe that Lexus needs to take notes from Mercedes-Benz's playbook. They have a SUV, sedan and a coupe for each tier. The NX and IS do not share anything with any other car and serve as independent models. There are a lack of choices the lower you go. Other than the LF-1, Lexus needs to build a RWD crossover based on the IS platform and there should be a *sigh* FWD sedan that is based on the NX. Therefore, it gives Lexus customers more offerings and it shows that Lexus cars have a great bandwidth of models. I know sedans are not popular right now. But where it sits at, towards the bottom of the lineup, it just confuses me.

It should go like this:

Unique crossover - UX (single model like I explained above)
Subcompact - NX/sedan based on NX
Compact: IS/crossover based on IS/RC
Midsize: RX/ES
Higher midsize: GS/GX
Flagship: LX/LC/LS/LF-1

I believe markets like the GLC, Macan, X3 are dominating the market and there needs to be an entry from Lexus. As for subcompact sedans, the A-Class/CLA-Class/A3/2-Series are playing a huge role in the market. There needs to be another entry here.

Just my two cents. I am really proud on how Lexus is moving, but these two omissions always gets me.
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ssun30
I'm leaning towards A for inline engine and V for V-engine. Type of aspiration is encoded in the suffix F'T'S.

I completely missed that part. The KR and NR updates are indeed somewhat new. But this could also mean their Dynamic Force update could come very late (2020-2021).
A senior engineer at TMEC said that they were not very happy with the 8NR-FTS design since it does not deliver the power density and fuel efficiency desired. It was just an interim solution for turbo-loving markets like EU and China. The problem is its very small displacement, or rather displacement per cylinder. 300cc is very little space to work with so they couldn't extract a lot of efficiency out of it. The general rule is you want as high displacement per cylinder as possible until you start losing reliability due to stroke length and vibrations. Each engine layout has a different 'sweet spot'. For I4 this is between 350 and 600 cc/cylinder. I3 rules in the sub-1.5L segment. At 330-430 cc/cylinder (1.0-1.3L), the efficiency is unbeatable by I4 but at 1.5L (the 500cc/cylinder 'magic number'), containing vibration becomes more challenging and some engineers may choose I4 for better NVH and scalability.
So I think TMC wants to try following the winning recipe and replace the 8NR-FTS with a 1.2 or 1.3T Inline-3. GM is using its new 1.3T unit to replace a lot of I4 (turbocharged included) engines.


The Aqua/Yaris Hybrid already makes 75kW, so 90kW is not a significant bump considering the drivetrain could also be used on slightly bigger vehicles like Auris and Corolla.
- I dont think KR and NR will get "Dynamic Force" engines anytime soon... not with them updating it this spring (KR) and all new 1.5l ESTEC NR last year.
- As to the 4cly vs 3cly, unfortunately those were designed to satisfy old NEDC emissions/fuel consumption... in real tests by European mags, those 3cly turbos have poor efficiency. For instance Autobild tested BMW's new turbo 3cly and they got worse efficiency than their old engines.
- 8NR-FTS is also very new engine... maybe update with new transmissions and in new platforms will add 7-8% better efficiency as well as some internal changes or turbo changes. I read from owners posts that they are pretty happy with 1.2t's fuel consumption in C-HRs, numbers are pretty low and much better than what people used to get with small 1.8l Rav4's.
- So what are those two smaller engines? I have no idea. Maybe new small turbo for Auris? Since they did not put 1.0 KR update there or new 1.5l NR I have no idea. Are they going to do 1.5l turbo for Europe for C-HR? Kind of makes no sense if they claim 2.0l has better efficiency and power curve.

As to the hybrid, why would it get a power bump? This is their mass produced powertrain sold in their best selling vehicles. It has to be cost effective if it is to compete with 1.5l engine, price differential cant be too big. They need more power from lower point of the range, they need more battery output and much better nvh... of course they also need more efficiency. But cost is primary factory, just like with Prius 1.8l engine.
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[​IMG]


If we look at this chart again we are missing
- 2 smaller engines under 2.0l... we have no clue what they are. It seems they want to introduce new 2.0l as replacement for old 1.8l ZR engine that was probably their most sold engine in the world. They also just recently introduced updated 1.0l and 1.5l engines.
- Engine bwteen 2.5l and 2.0l? This has to be a turbo engine, maybe 1.5l turbo? But then why would UX get 2.0l in some markets? Maybe less expensive than 1.5l turbo while 2.5l might be overall superior? So who would get 1.5l turbo? Markets with fuel efficiency taxes, upgraded powertrain for small cars?
- 3.5l GR replacement it seems - between 2.5l and 3.5ltt. Will it have a turbo? If it has a turbo it might be a 3.0l. If not, it will be all new 3.5l NA engine. Why NA? Because it has to be cost effective. This will be a base engine for many Lexus vehicles. They cant have a very expensive twin turbo engine as base and most of Lexus buyers do not want 4cly turbo engine as we know by now.
- Larger than 3.5tt is obviously V8 engines for new Tundra and for new LC-F.
- Larger than 300h hybrid engine? Might it be based on 2.0t? I am not sure what can be less than latest 3.5l "500h" but more than 300h if it is not a 2.0l with turbo.
L
One thing you are missing is the a powerful diesel engine (V6 or V8). No way Toyota will sell any new Land Cruiser without diesel in the rest of the world, unless they have a Land Cruiser Hybrid.



ssun30
This sounds hilarious, but the possibility of Lexus restarting a horsepower war is non-zero. They are the ones who started it since the original GS400. The horsepower war is only getting worse with electrification. In China we get 542hp hybrid family SUVs starting from $40,000 before incentives. And of course everyone gets the bull/stallion-slaying Model S.
Yes, Volvo with T8 version, +400 Ps and BYD Tang PHEV with 505PS, 0-100km/h in 4.5 sec, among the many Chinese cars.

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spwolf
- As to the 4cly vs 3cly, unfortunately those were designed to satisfy old NEDC emissions/fuel consumption... in real tests by European mags, those 3cly turbos have poor efficiency. For instance Autobild tested BMW's new turbo 3cly and they got worse efficiency than their old engines.
- 8NR-FTS is also very new engine... maybe update with new transmissions and in new platforms will add 7-8% better efficiency as well as some internal changes or turbo changes. I read from owners posts that they are pretty happy with 1.2t's fuel consumption in C-HRs, numbers are pretty low and much better than what people used to get with small 1.8l Rav4's.
The 4 vs. 3 cylinder comparison was mirroring a TMEC engineer's comment. MPG does not equate efficiency nor is it the other way around. But in their internal evaluation, they determined a 3 cylinder would better suit the sub-1.5L segment. The Dynamic Force concept would be hard to apply (or not optimally) to only 300 cc/cylinder. How BMW B38 equipped Minis failed to match the MPG of the Prince 1.6 is a mystery, but it could be a very complicated matter.
I didn't say users are unhappy with the 1.2T; they are more annoyed by the two gearboxes it comes with. It was the engineer themselves who weren't too impressed by the 8NR-FTS. They hoped to work on a 1.4T unit because 350cc/cylinder is easier to optimize. That project got shelved for unknown reasons.

spwolf
As to the hybrid, why would it get a power bump?
For use on a bigger vehicle, like Asia-spec Corolla/Vios.

Levi
One thing you are missing is the a powerful diesel engine (V6 or V8). No way Toyota will sell any new Land Cruiser without diesel in the rest of the world, unless they have a Land Cruiser Hybrid.
A new diesel engine is the least of their concern. I don't think TMC is going to develop a diesel engine from scratch, ever. They are investing an enormous amount of resources on engineering TNGA 1.0 and R&D on TNGA 2.0 and EV. Plus all these rumors about diesel bans. The chance of an entirely new diesel is infinitesimal.
Not updating its current diesel engines means better serviceability and part availability which is the prime concern in those regions that use diesel utility vehicles extensively. They do not need more power, there is plenty already. They want the engine to operate into eternity and nothing else.
Oh, and this lineup is for TMC's 'major' markets only, i.e. NA, Japan, EU, and China. They will keep a separate plan for the developing world.
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ssun30
The 4 vs. 3 cylinder comparison was mirroring a TMEC engineer's comment. MPG does not equate efficiency nor is it the other way around. But in their internal evaluation, they determined a 3 cylinder would better suit the sub-1.5L segment. The Dynamic Force concept would be hard to apply (or not optimally) to only 300 cc/cylinder. How BMW B38 equipped Minis failed to match the MPG of the Prince 1.6 is a mystery, but it could be a very complicated matter.
I didn't say users are unhappy with the 1.2T; they are more annoyed by the two gearboxes it comes with. It was the engineer themselves who weren't too impressed by the 8NR-FTS. They hoped to work on a 1.4T unit because 350cc/cylinder is easier to optimize. That project got shelved for unknown reasons.


For use on a bigger vehicle, like Asia-spec Corolla/Vios.
Asia spec Vios gets old 1.5l which even older hybrid will be better than performance wise... dont expect major spec bump, just overall better package, exactly like 1.8l and 2.5l hybrid upgrades. In fact, expect one simpler hybrid powertrain that might go into those cheaper vehicles, not more complicated one... price is a big factor in that segment.

As to the 3cly vs 4cly, I think TMC made a choice already with both 1.2t and 1.5l Estec engine.

It is not just BMW, across the industry 3cly turbos are not proving as good efficiency wise. Maybe they have to be on boost too much since without it they are too anemic? So turbo is always working? FCA's 2cly turbo is even worse.
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Levi
One thing you are missing is the a powerful diesel engine (V6 or V8). No way Toyota will sell any new Land Cruiser without diesel in the rest of the world, unless they have a Land Cruiser Hybrid.
This chart was for last 18 months, ending with 2018 year if I remember correctly... so it is until indefinite period, it is for engines and tech revealed until end of 2018.

So diesels for Land Cruiser 200 are not going to be there. Even though they sell it only in few countries in the world, I wonder if there will be big diesel for Land Cruiser 200 coming ever, they might just get a BMW diesel for it since markets where LC 200 sells is not markets where diesel is big.
Gecko
Believe it or not, from what I heard last year, Toyota has a very rich diesel powertrain lineup in the works with a multi-model strategy. However, not sure if that was canned with the VW scandal.
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Gecko
Believe it or not, from what I heard last year, Toyota has a very rich diesel powertrain lineup in the works with a multi-model strategy. However, not sure if that was canned with the VW scandal.
Not so sure if that was ever the case really. They did introduce their 4cly truck diesels, which sell excellently in many countries around the world. But they dont have volume for V6 or V8 diesels, not without Lexus in EU, which wont be getting them anyway.

EU rules on emissions that are coming were always strict, and I am not sure that Toyota was ever ready to cheat like VW and now MB already did.

Now between Isuzu, Suzuki, Mazda and Toyota brands (all partially owned by Toyota these days), they really could have done something to integrate future diesel developments, but I think that just changed into future hybrid/plugin/EV strategy.
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I think the program was canned when Toyoda decided that it did not make sense and they turned into getting BMW diesels for Europe. Prior to that, there were rumors that Isuzu had a range of small diesels for Toyota, which would make sense since they already developed small diesels for GM prior to that.

But it seems that canning it was a really good choice back then, since these days a lot of Toyota distributors in EU are going diesel free with exception on big trucks... so new Auris will likely not have a diesel at all.

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