Lexus Developing Twin-Turbo Hybrid Powertrain?

White Beach

Lexus Considering More Powerful Hybrid LS; Full EV Also Possible

https://www.motor1.com/news/239036/lexus-considering-more-powerful-hybrid-ls-full-ev-also-possible/

anything you read from AU media is likely a figment of imagination. I am not saying none of it will happen, but it is a non news - we know as much as they do. I still cant forget how they were putting stuff out for years on GT-86 turbo engine.

krew

Lexus Developing Twin-Turbo Hybrid Powertrain?

EV is also being considered.

View the original article post

God is answering my prayers
Now give us the 5.0 V8 TT please

With the Rear Executive Package like the LS600hL :)

I’ve been hoping for a turbo charged hybrid for some time and have wondered why Lexus hasn’t developed one by now.

With Merc going EV on next-gen S-Class. I'm sure the LS+ will have loads of electrified variants.

It sounds expensive. I wonder how much of a market there would be for this powertrain. Is there enough demand to offset the cost to develop? From a business standpoint, it may be a better idea to develop and mass produce a 4cyl turbo hybrid. However, having a more limited-production halo option lets them gather data and less likely to have wide-spread issues.

TheNerdyPotato

It sounds expensive. I wonder how much of a market there would be for this powertrain. Is there enough demand to offset the cost to develop? From a business standpoint, it may be a better idea to develop and mass produce a 4cyl turbo hybrid. However, having a more limited-production halo option lets them gather data and less likely to have wide-spread issues.

there is no market for it, and I dont think it will happen... 450h powertrain is already expensive for markets that need it, like europe.

If they want to spend money, it is much better to do sport plugins and full evs that hybrids that people wont buy.

There have been few sources straight out from Lexus confirming it's being developed. Key question is how they gonna position it? Is it going to be exclusive for LS-F high performance variant or are they going eat up the cost in order to make it a true successor to 450h in the same price range?

mediumhot

There have been few sources straight out from Lexus confirming it's being developed. Key question is how they gonna position it? Is it going to be exclusive for LS-F high performance variant or are they going eat up the cost in order to make it a true successor to 450h in the same price range?

If the source is Australian mag that says head engineer smiled when asked about it , then sure.

Otherwise no, there were no sources about it.

Sources say Lexus is doing 600+ hp v8 twin turbo engine for LS F, LC F, this has been in various Japanese mags fire past year or more .

spwolf

Sources say Lexus is doing 600+ hp v8 twin turbo engine for LS F, LC F, this has been in various Japanese mags for past year or more .

The prevailing rumor was it would be a 4.0l V8, but I think that's unlikely. Toyota is historically conservative with their engine power outputs, especially on mass produced engines. Both the 8AR and V35A have a specific output of about 120hp/l. To get 600hp, they'd need to jump to 150hp/l out of 4.0l. While this isn't impossible (Ford GT 640hp/3.5l, for example) I doubt that Toyota/Lexus would push that hard. 5.0l would achieve 600hp at 120hp/l, so that'd be an option.

Giving specific output a small bump to 130hp/l would require a 4.6l, which would be the displacement you'd get from taking the V35A and adding 2 more cylinders. I think this is a totally plausible solution. It would feature some parts and tooling commonality with the lower-end engine while having slightly more aggressive tuning for being the top-end engine option.

TheNerdyPotato

Giving specific output a small bump to 130hp/l would require a 4.6l, which would be the displacement you'd get from taking the V35A and adding 2 more cylinders. I think this is a totally plausible solution. It would feature some parts and tooling commonality with the lower-end engine while having slightly more aggressive tuning for being the top-end engine option.

I like your thinking, but there is one detail: I'm no engineer, but I think this degree of commonality might require the V6 and V8 to share the same degree angle in the "V". The ideal angle for a smooth V6 is 60 degrees, whereas for a V8 it's 90 degrees. Yes, there are a number of 90-degree V6s that are essentially V8s with a couple of cylinders lopped off (the old Buick Fireball/3800 and current Jaguar AJ126 come to mind), but they require the added weight and complexity of balance shafts for acceptable smoothness. And I don't recall anybody ever taking a 60-degree V6 and adding balance shafts and a couple of cylinders to create a V8.

Toyota/Lexus has always prioritized smoothness and the ideal configuration for each engine configuration over a need for parts and tooling commonality.

Having said that, this sort of parts and tooling commonality is ideal for inline engines, with BMW and Volvo as standout believers in this.

Joaquin Ruhi

I like your thinking, but there is one detail: I'm no engineer, but I think this degree of commonality might require the V6 and V8 to share the same degree angle in the "V". The ideal angle for a smooth V6 is 60 degrees, whereas for a V8 it's 90 degrees. Yes, there are a number of 90-degree V6s that are essentially V8s with a couple of cylinders lopped off (the old Buick Fireball/3800 and current Jaguar AJ126 come to mind), but they require the added weight and complexity of balance shafts for acceptable smoothness. And I don't recall anybody ever taking a 60-degree V6 and adding balance shafts and a couple of cylinders to create a V8.

Toyota/Lexus has always prioritized smoothness and the ideal configuration for each engine configuration over a need for parts and tooling commonality.

Having said that, this sort of parts and tooling commonality is ideal for inline engines, with BMW and Volvo as standout believers in this.

They wouldn't share the same same block design, crankshaft, or many other major parts, but a lot of the other components could be shared. Pistons, rings, wrist-pins, valves, springs, etc... could be shared, along with things such as cylinder boring/honing tools, assuming they use the same bore size.

As I've said 4.6 no longer makes sense since intermediate displacements are undesirable from a tax perspective.

Dynamic Force optimizes displacement for each new block, there is no "common displacement per cylinder" rule in Dynamic Force. We have the 2.0, 2.5, and 3.5 which all have different bore sizes. Common displacement per cylinder only works for companies building only inline engines, but we know TMC doesn't build an Inline-6.

ssun30

there is no "common displacement per cylinder" rule in Dynamic Force.

Fair enough. I'm used to looking at the GR/UR data, where almost all the engines available in USA had the same shared 94mm bore.

TheNerdyPotato

Both the 8AR and V35A have a specific output of about 120hp/l. To get 600hp, they'd need to jump to 150hp/l out of 4.0l. While this isn't impossible (Ford GT 640hp/3.5l, for example) I doubt that Toyota/Lexus would push that hard. 5.0l would achieve 600hp at 120hp/l, so that'd be an option.

Making 150hp/L on premium gas is trivial. There's very little challenge involved. That being said, 5.0 should still be a possiility.

ssun30

Making 150hp/L on premium gas is trivial. There's very little challenge involved. That being said, 5.0 should still be a possiility.

Again, Toyota is historically conservative with engine power output. I'm not saying that they can't. I'm saying that they're not likely to push that hard. They have a tendency to detune and overbuild their engines for long-term reliability.

Some of the Germans are using a small 4.0 V-8 for awhile now with some huge numbers. While I welcome a V-6tt hybrid I think it probably would make like 450hp and not the 500hp number we have been looking for. That said if it is significantly faster with better MPG that is of course a huge plus.

I do how if it comes the USA gets a F-Sport version. The Current 500h can be had as a F-Sport overseas but not here.

mikeavelli

Some of the Germans are using a small 4.0 V-8 for awhile now with some huge numbers. While I welcome a V-6tt hybrid I think it probably would make like 450hp and not the 500hp number we have been looking for. That said if it is significantly faster with better MPG that is of course a huge plus.

I do hope if it comes the USA gets a F-Sport version. The Current 500h can be had as a F-Sport overseas but not here.

main reason for why I dont think we will see hybrid twin turbo is the markets that require such vehicle - it would sell only in Europe and nobody would buy it there since we moved to plugins or evs for that market. People simply dont buy large high powered engines like that anymore - for us 350hp hybrid is enough.

Markets that buy high performance engines, such as USA, Arab countries and Russia do not buy hybrids. They want 600hp petrol engine.

And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

I would guess the smile comes from him either not understanding them or thinking how funny they are, lol.

spwolf

main reason for why I dont think we will see hybrid twin turbo is the markets that require such vehicle - it would sell only in Europe and nobody would buy it there since we moved to plugins or evs for that market. People simply dont buy large high powered engines like that anymore - for us 350hp hybrid is enough.

Markets that buy high performance engines, such as USA, Arab countries and Russia do not buy hybrids. They want 600hp petrol engine.

And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

I would guess the smile comes from him either not understanding them or thinking how funny they are, lol.

Well it seems something is coming for the LS, there wasn't enough time for more engines at launch according to the article. I really hope a V-8 option comes and of course the F V-8 option.

Even the thought of the LS with the current 5.0 V-8 makes me drool. That sound and engine in the LS would be amazing.

spwolf

main reason for why I dont think we will see hybrid twin turbo is the markets that require such vehicle - it would sell only in Europe and nobody would buy it there since we moved to plugins or evs for that market. People simply dont buy large high powered engines like that anymore - for us 350hp hybrid is enough.

Markets that buy high performance engines, such as USA, Arab countries and Russia do not buy hybrids. They want 600hp petrol engine.

And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

I would guess the smile comes from him either not understanding them or thinking how funny they are, lol.

This. I don't think it's worth bothering making 'another hybrid flagship'. It's something they did ten years ago. The LS+ should have flagship EV (for EU/CN), FCV (for JDM), and V8-F (for USA) models. Having these options will make it an unrivaled halo car, since no competitor can offer all three at once. It will be a show of force.

mikeavelli

Well it seems something is coming for the LS, there wasn't enough time for more engines at launch according to the article. I really hope a V-8 option comes and of course the F V-8 option.

No worries, It's coming ;)

spwolf

And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

The more telling quote is from CAR Magazine:

The car’s deputy chief engineer told me there hadn’t been time to hybridise the twin-turbo version of the V6 before this car was launched, but the job was now in hand. More torque lower down would probably solve both the refinement and the engagement issues, and make the LS a much better car.

Truth is, Lexus is spreading out development costs -- the LC was able to launch with the virtual 10-speed hybrid transmission, but had to pair it with a reworked 450h powertrain. The LS launched the TT 3.5L V6. Now Lexus is planning to merge the TTV6 and the hybrid system.

For all the talk about Lexus not having a replacement for the 4.6L V8, I have to think the resulting LS 650h (?!?) would be positioned above the LS 500 -- more horsepower, more torque, quieter, more fuel efficient. It has the potential to be a great fit, maybe even filling the role originally meant for the LS 600h back in the day. Would give Lexus an option between the LS 500 and the much-rumored TT V8 LS F.

ssun30

This. I don't think it's worth bothering making 'another hybrid flagship'. It's something they did ten years ago. The LS+ should have flagship EV (for EU/CN), FCV (for JDM), and V8-F (for USA) models. Having these options will make it an unrivaled halo car, since no competitor can offer all three at once. It will be a show of force.

Hybrid is still an important technology, and one that Lexus remains committed to. I agree that Lexus needs all of the powertrains you mention, but believe a hybrid LS would fit comfortably underneath all of them.

krew

Hybrid is still an important technology, and one that Lexus remains committed to. I agree that Lexus needs all of the powertrains you mention, but believe a hybrid LS would fit comfortably underneath all of them.

True. Underneath and not at the top. Will most likely replace the 500 in EU to make a fully-electrified lineup.
The output level should be less than 450hp since the ICE will be efficiency-optimized like before.

ssun30

The output level should be less than 450hp since the ICE will be efficiency-optimized like before.

I know you're right, but it would be wonderful if Lexus tuned a hybrid towards performance rather than total efficiency.

What would make the most sense for Lexus in global markets would be a 3.0L T/TT V6 hybrid... being down on displacement, it would take some engineering to get it to the right mix of efficiency and power for heavy cars like LS and LC, but it has much more global appeal for markets that have a displacement tax. This would be the best option to replace and consolidate the current "500h" powertrain and possibly also the 450h powertrain. Right now, "old" GS 450h makes 338hp but the "new" LS 500h makes 354hp, so we have a 16 horsepower difference between "500h" and "450h." This is where the lines get gray about displacement, power output and naming.

Anyway, a brand new Dynamic Force 3.0L V6 (likely turbocharged) paired with a hybrid system should be able to pretty easily equal the power of the 500h... 350-360hp. I don't know if they would consider this the "new 450h" or keep "500h" or something different. This is the smartest route for Lexus in Europe, China and beyond. It would also probably be fine for US consumers as well depending on tuning.

Lexus will also need a new hybrid for the next gen RX, so it's an option there as well. Then there is LF-1 to consider and some others like LX that will surely have next-gen hybrids.

With that said, I do still think there is an opportunity to pair the 3.5L TT with a hybrid system, but I assume the naming goes up to "550h" or "600h" at that point. I think if they can make this theoretical powertrain truly rival the V8s from Mercedes, Audi and BMW (We are talking 0-60 in ~4.5 seconds with very strong, effortless power delivery), then it's a great option to legitimately replace the need for a "mainstream" V8 LS. Even as someone who loves NA engines, loves V8s, loves torque and wants to see a V8 LS... in theory, the 3.5L TT V6 mated to a hybrid powertrain would be a killer combination.

So you'd have:

"450h/500h" - 3.0L turbo or twin-turbo V6 producing ~350hp, great for RX, LS, LC, LF-1, possibly also GX and LX
"550h/600h" - 3.5L twin-turbo V6 producing ~425-450hp, flagship powertrain for LS, LC, LX and LF-1

3.5L hybrid is just a tough sell on a global scale because displacement puts in the same tax bracket as larger engines.

I think the other scenario could be the rumored 2.5L TT I4 paired to hybrid system for "400h," eliminating the "450h/500h" option above. I would believe that power comes down in that case, and it might not be the right fit for LS, LC, LF-1, and certainly not LX.

krew

Hybrid is still an important technology, and one that Lexus remains committed to. I agree that Lexus needs all of the powertrains you mention, but believe a hybrid LS would fit comfortably underneath all of them.

hybrid is certainly here to stay for a long time, in every country that there are no huge EV incentives, EV sales are very small.

As to the 3.5l tt hybrid, they can always do more performance version of it with slightly bigger battery and more tuned software wise for performance. They would be able to do 100hp from electric with still relatively small battery (2kwh?). This would also bring a lot bigger EV power instant push.

But the problem with all above is that:
a. 450h and 500h hybrids sell well only in Europe (and lesser extent Japan) due to the emission laws.
b. main problem in Europe is price - not performance. So they would not sell more in Europe if they had 100hp more - literally nobody cares. People want lower price and better mpg. They are afraid of high powered vehicles, which is why best selling S class is S350d with 286hp.
c. market that wants performance is not Europe - it is USA, and they also prefer to drive V8tt and not hybrids. Current LS/LC sales goals for 500h is 10%! Hybrids that sell well in US are lower priced.
d. US market would not consider 100+ hybrid with worse MPG as better option. It would still not be as sporty as possible (eCVT) and they would complain about mpg being only 20. Halo car would have to be EV or 600+ V8tt.

So instead of doing 650h, Lexus would be much smarter to do EV powertrain for performance vehicles + F models with 600hp+.

I would guess that this is what they want to do - with F models coming first, as well as dedicated EV... and then LS based EV later.

@Gecko

The biggest worry is that, in the not so distant future we will have an inline-4 hybrid LS, when the 2GR-FKS/FXS go out of production. :(

And eventually we will get inline-3 turbo/hybrid IS/UX/NX/RX or whatever. :scream:

It's time to embrace full electric.

ssun30

@Gecko

The biggest worry is that, in the not so distant future we will have an inline-4 hybrid LS, when the 2GR-FKS/FXS go out of production. :(

And eventually we will get inline-3 turbo/hybrid IS/UX/NX/RX or whatever. :scream:

These things will sell in hordes and make bean counters at Aichi extremely happy.

It's time to embrace full electric.

Those turbos are not cheap as you know... lets hope they do bring them out, Lexus selling well is good for all of us.

As to the EV, there are only few markets in the world prepared for it... so it is far away.

But looking at their production/investment announcements, TMC will have full EVs in 2020, and mass market too.