Teased: The Next-Generation Lexus ES Sedan

I think we all need to stop thinking inside the box... nobody will be annoyed if we had ES F with 416hp bi-turbo engine and AWD for $60k well optioned.

Audi has been doing it for decades now.

Lexus does not have to be held to some impossible standards to meet.

spwolf

Maybe some specific market had them which is why they show up in carsalesbase database, but actual competitor to Mazda 6 and Euro Accord and middle class (Passat, Mondeo, Vectra/Insignia) were Corona, Carina and then Avensis, and thats going back to late 60's.

There are some possibly valid rumors that next-gen international Camry will come to Europe and replace Avensis due to low sales in failing sedan market, so that might actually end up being true in the future. Question then is what will Burnaston factory then produce?

The Camry was available in Europe until 2004, even longer in some select markets. It was placed a class higher than those cars you've mentioned and competed with similar offerings from mainstream makes (e.g. Honda Legend, Opel Omega...) and to some lesser degree with offerings from premium makes.

BenzCity

The Camry was available in Europe until 2004, even longer in some select markets. It was placed a class higher than those cars you've mentioned and competed with similar offerings from mainstream makes (e.g. Honda Legend, Opel Omega...) and to some lesser degree with offerings from premium makes.

is this in Germany? Wasnt around here...

spwolf

is this in Germany? Wasnt around here...

It was definitely officially sold in Germany. According to German Wikipedia it was available until 2004 and I have seen a few Camry wagons here. Pretty sure it was also available in other Western European markets.

im looking forward to the ES redesign. however, i really hope it dose not look like a little LS. the ES isnt my favorite of them all but i like the current one. its only sin is that its FWD. if they made the ES RWD, it would be a damn fun car to drive considering that it really rips when its stomped on.

right now every lexus model is unique and has its own identity. im hoping it stays that way.

i think the next ES will absolutley have a 4cyl base model, probably a turbo, mid tier and lux/UL will have the 3.5 v6.

looking forward to seeing a sportier faster ES, but i really REALLY hope they dont kill the GS. besides, thats only still a rumor, right?

spwolf

I think we all need to stop thinking inside the box... nobody will be annoyed if we had ES F with 416hp bi-turbo engine and AWD for $60k well optioned.

Audi has been doing it for decades now.

Lexus does not have to be held to some impossible standards to meet.

An ES F is a concept I have no trouble with, but it would have to be a worthy addition to the F brand. I wouldn't want something that waters down the high-performance lineup.

It all depends on how well the next-generation model handles.

krew

An ES F is a concept I have no trouble with, but it would have to be a worthy addition to the F brand. I wouldn't want something that waters down the high-performance lineup.

It all depends on how well the next-generation model handles.

Customers dont care about "watering the brand" though. Lexus F brand is not selling their sedans at all. RC and GS sales are really bad these days, despite well reviewed GS-F for instance.

If Mercedes can have AMG versions with less than 400hp, so can Lexus. (C43 anyone?)

Nobody ever thought S4, S6 watered the brand, even with significant power deficit compared to the RS as well as M and AMG cars... Everyone actually loves it.

Rob_LexusTech

im looking forward to the ES redesign. however, i really hope it dose not look like a little LS. the ES isnt my favorite of them all but i like the current one. its only sin is that its FWD. if they made the ES RWD, it would be a damn fun car to drive considering that it really rips when its stomped on.

RWD seems unlikely. I'm guessing it'll be a FWD based on TNGA, similar to the 2018 Camry. Best we can hope for is optional AWD.

krew

An ES F is a concept I have no trouble with, but it would have to be a worthy addition to the F brand. I wouldn't want something that waters down the high-performance lineup.

It all depends on how well the next-generation model handles.

Here's the million dollar question. An ES F with a V8 like everyone else? Or the V6? If its an F model, it MUST be the V8 for me. I strongly believe that there should be linearity in a lineup so customers can be interested.

F1 Silver Arrows

Here's the million dollar question. An ES F with a V8 like everyone else? Or the V6? If its an F model, it MUST be the V8 for me. I strongly believe that there should be linearity in a lineup so customers can be interested.

Again, going back to the TNGA FWD architecture, it'll be a V6. Maybe the turbo V6, but a V6 nonetheless . Mounting a V8 transversely is no small undertaking.

TheNerdyPotato

Again, going back to the TNGA FWD architecture, it'll be a V6. Maybe the turbo V6, but a V6 nonetheless . Mounting a V8 transversely is no small undertaking.

416hp AWD ES would be faster than AMG C43.

Bestcar about Lexus ES in Japan:
https://bestcarweb.jp/news/newcar/2544

Lexus ES has been line up for overseas, including North America, for some time. In the domestic market "Wyndham" which was sold as of January 2006 is sold as Lexus ES overseas, it has become the sixth generation who appeared in 2012 now after two model changes.

　The seventh generation model is scheduled to appear in North America this year, but this will be added to the lineup even in Japan.

　Basically it is developed commonly with camry and platform as it was originally made. In other words, based on the TNGA (Lexus car so LNGA as it is a Lexus car) platform which is highly evaluated by camry, the newly developed new generation 2.5L straight 4 engine + hybrid of the motor is installed. The interior and exterior are given a design and texture that seems to be a Lexus car.

　The 2.5 L hybrid will be "Lexus ES 300 h", and in 2019 a year later, "ES 350" will be added with a newly developed inline 4-cylinder 2.5 L turbo. I also want to pay attention to this.

The power unit is a 2.5 L hybrid mounted on Camry. However, because the undercarriage and interior are thoroughly arranged in a Lexus style, the ride taste becomes completely different. I am looking forward to say that 2.5L turbo will be added one year later

that looks almost legit. looks better then the ES we have now, and it would follow the new design language that seems to be going on with everything across the board. it has harder lines. im digging it. what i dont like is the 3.5 being replaced with a 2.5 turbo 4 banger. then again everyone else is doing it. thats something ive always admired and respected about lexus, they stayed true to the numbering/displacement. well, until now....

in a perfect world, we would be seeing a 4.0L RWDAWD V8, ES400, but those kinds of dreams will never come true at this point. thanks again CAFE standards.. the ES is an interesting car with a very interesting history, and i really like the current car, but its very much time for a redesign. looking forward to see what we have when the wraps come off!

i like the big chrome hofmeister kink on the c-pillar/rear door glass too!

Rob_LexusTech

that looks almost legit. looks better then the ES we have now, and it would follow the new design language that seems to be going on with everything across the board. it has harder lines. im digging it. what i dont like is the 3.5 being replaced with a 2.5 turbo 4 banger. then again everyone else is doing it. thats something ive always admired and respected about lexus, they stayed true to the numbering/displacement. well, until now....

in a perfect world, we would be seeing a 4.0L RWDAWD V8, ES400, but those kinds of dreams will never come true at this point. thanks again CAFE standards.. the ES is an interesting car with a very interesting history, and i really like the current car, but its very much time for a redesign. looking forward to see what we have when the wraps come off!

I am pretty sure that in USA there will be a V6 from start, their info is about Japan, and quite likely some special F-Sport version in Japan might have that 2.5l Turbo engine.

Also, 4cly NA engine will be available around the world, I would not be so sure it wont be in Japan too, but maybe they are trying to make Lexus more exclusive by offering only hybrid option for it...

With all these cylinder cutting and efficiency maximization (at the cost of smoothness), I think we just have a better excuse to buy full electric.

That's so bland looking... good luck pulling GS customers.

Gecko

That's so bland looking... good luck pulling GS customers.

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

Gecko

That's so bland looking... good luck pulling GS customers.

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I can't quite agree. The GS actually looks fresher. The F-sport and F hide their sizes well and look compact and agile. Athletic and aggressive is the message.

This render looks like a heavily watered-down LS: too predictable, too safe. It doesn't even try to look athletic. It's just an ES. It's not an ES bearing the mission of replacing the GS.

And what are these black plastic vents doing on a premium sedan? They don't belong there!

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I can't quite agree. The GS actually looks fresher. The F-sport and F hide their sizes well and look compact and agile. Athletic and aggressive is the message.

This render looks like a heavily watered-down LS: too predictable, too safe. It doesn't even try to look athletic. It's just an ES. It's not an ES bearing the mission of replacing the GS.

And what are these black plastic vents doing on a premium sedan? They don't belong there!

^well said.

^well said.

Gecko

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

Gecko

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

spwolf

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. This is a business at the end of the day, and ES is the better case -- period. What will be immensely problematic for Lexus is going to be the global media reaction to this car. You can say I'm reading tea leaves and no, we haven't seen the final car yet and there is still much unknown about it, but...

If they introduce an ES that looks like this and remove the GS completely, this new ES will be torn to shreds by the major media in the US, let alone Europe. Lexus will state the competitive set is the A6 and E Class, and it will probably not fare very well against either. Let alone the 5 Series and whatever Genesis model it competes against... G80? E class is more elegant as a scaled down S class, and the A6 - while also bland - looks more aggressive and has better detailing and execution. US media will probably compare it most directly to the Buick LaCross. There will certainly be a FWD model of ES, but who knows what type of AWD will be offered - we can speculate all day. I am not expecting a transverse mounted engine considering the long front overhang we've seen in spy pictures, and that's sad because it would likely help how the car drives by eliminating torque steer.

All of the media reviews will mourn the loss of the GS and say that the ES is not as good of a car as Mercedes and Audi. Too boring, too bland, FWD, doesn't drive well, etc. Then it will be more expensive than the Buick, and they'll probably complain about that too.

Now, we can also say that media doesn't matter. Does it? I think yes, and I think Lexus underestimates the value of positive PR quite heavily. You will bring up all of the positive press for the Honda Accord and how that hasn't translated into sales. There are lots of other important factors like leasing and financing options, and a polarizing design.

My point is this: This ES will surely continue to be successful, and it will continue to sell to people who have bought ESs in the past. However, that is a bit if a niche market in between RWD entry level sedans and midsize premium sedans like E, A6, 5er, etc. Lexus has been able to cover all of those bases with IS, niche ES, and GS, but when they remove GS... it just doesn't seem that they've done enough to properly elevate the ES if it looks like this. This car will not sell to the GS buyer, and quite frankly, I am not sure it will really compete with E Class. FWD A6 variants? Maybe.

spwolf

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. This is a business at the end of the day, and ES is the better case -- period. What will be immensely problematic for Lexus is going to be the global media reaction to this car. You can say I'm reading tea leaves and no, we haven't seen the final car yet and there is still much unknown about it, but...

If they introduce an ES that looks like this and remove the GS completely, this new ES will be torn to shreds by the major media in the US, let alone Europe. Lexus will state the competitive set is the A6 and E Class, and it will probably not fare very well against either. Let alone the 5 Series and whatever Genesis model it competes against... G80? E class is more elegant as a scaled down S class, and the A6 - while also bland - looks more aggressive and has better detailing and execution. US media will probably compare it most directly to the Buick LaCross. There will certainly be a FWD model of ES, but who knows what type of AWD will be offered - we can speculate all day. I am not expecting a transverse mounted engine considering the long front overhang we've seen in spy pictures, and that's sad because it would likely help how the car drives by eliminating torque steer.

All of the media reviews will mourn the loss of the GS and say that the ES is not as good of a car as Mercedes and Audi. Too boring, too bland, FWD, doesn't drive well, etc. Then it will be more expensive than the Buick, and they'll probably complain about that too.

Now, we can also say that media doesn't matter. Does it? I think yes, and I think Lexus underestimates the value of positive PR quite heavily. You will bring up all of the positive press for the Honda Accord and how that hasn't translated into sales. There are lots of other important factors like leasing and financing options, and a polarizing design.

My point is this: This ES will surely continue to be successful, and it will continue to sell to people who have bought ESs in the past. However, that is a bit if a niche market in between RWD entry level sedans and midsize premium sedans like E, A6, 5er, etc. Lexus has been able to cover all of those bases with IS, niche ES, and GS, but when they remove GS... it just doesn't seem that they've done enough to properly elevate the ES if it looks like this. This car will not sell to the GS buyer, and quite frankly, I am not sure it will really compete with E Class. FWD A6 variants? Maybe.

Yes. The point is not about whether the ES will be successful. It already is and will continue to be. We are saying this doesn't look good enough as a GS replacement. If the ES couldn't get more (or outright lose) buyers in that segment, then it had failed its mission. It will succeed in being an ES, but probably fail in becoming 'more than an ES'. That's what we are concerned about.
That being said, as a 5ES owner I don't care that much. As long as they can offer a four-seat 'super-lux' trim I will buy one in a heartbeat (otherwise an Alphard). I've given up on the V6 and just have to accept the downgrade to an I4 hybrid