Toyota's wasted R&D problem

ssun30

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When car media today talk about products from TMC, they have a habit of describing them as "conservatively equipped" mildly or more commonly "outdated". The thing is, TMC actually has one of the largest R&D budgets and lag behind no car company when it comes to technology. Even for EVs, their problem is more at the system integration and software level not at the technology level.

Toyota has a habit of developing a lot of technologies for various components of the car, but use them randomly across their lineup, only to abandon the technology some years later. Sometimes they use an unnecessarily expensive tech on a cheap car, compromising their reliability and cost, while their high-end products tend to be missing features that are standard on competing products. So I don't think "reducing cost" and "better reliability" are good defending arguments for this strange behavior.

Here are some examples:

>> Valvematic: this is the most well-engineered continuous variable valve lift (CVVL) system because it does not increase the heigh of the engine unlike Nissan VVEL and BMW Valvetronic. CVVL adds an extra dimension of valve control so the throttle valve could be completely eliminated and reduces pumping loss because there is no vacuum in the intake manifold. And if you are familiar with VTEC you know VVL also increases air flow at high rpm with the higher lift profile. The result is 3ZR-FAE (with Valvematic) could match the 6AR-FSE (both 2.0L I4 engines) in power, torque and efficiency without D-4S. It has a much lower compression ratio (10.0) compared to 6AR (12.7). So logically they use this technology on Corolla and RAV4, not something that could use better power and fuel efficiency like V8 trucks and sports cars.

>> VVT-iW: the wide-angle VVT-i adjustment allows the intake valve to close very late to simulate Miller cycle operation. It's quite important for products that are more fuel economy sensitive like, you know, pickup trucks and offroad SUVs. So logically Toyota omit it from T24 and V35 used on Tacoma/Tundra. And as a result got barely better fuel efficiency than the engines they replace (2GR and 2UR). Yet they have it on the G16E-GTS, a high performance engine used on very light cars, not a combination demanding the best fuel saving technology.

>> TVD: why would any RAV4 or Highlander owner care about exciting cornering performance offered by a torque vectoring differential? It's purely dead weight and an extra point of failure. And somehow the NX and RX F-Sport don't get it? Not combined with the GR-Four AWD system for GR Corolla?

>> VDIM: this was a very advanced handling package that improves the daily drivability of any car and doesn't come at a big cost. It was a very mature and reliable technology that used to be available on mid-range products like IS, GS, NX, RX, Highlander, Sienna etc since 2004. Today it's packaged with very expensive and unreliable features like rear steering and active stabilizers and only available on RC (but not IS) and LS/LC.

>> Multi-stage hybrid/grounding clutch system: before today's overly complicated 4-stage 500h system is the 2-stage 450h system used on GS and Crown. A 2-stage system could provide very good acceleration while not compromising highway fuel efficiency. 2- or 3-stage serial-parallel hybrid systems like Honda i-MMD and Geely DHT Pro are catching up to HSD despite Toyota's 2-decade head start in hybrid system calibration. And similarly, the Prius PHV used the grounding clutch system to increase acceleration and reduce electrical losses at highway speeds.

>> Parallel hybrid (iForce Max): I think a lot of people here complain Tundar/Sequoia gets iForce Max, but not LX. I used to think it's packaging (they couldn't find space in the LC300 chassis and are waiting more compact batteries), but the Tacoma/LC250 proved me wrong. And if it's a simpler system than 4-stage hybrid, why not on LS/LC?

>> A very advanced V6TT engine design: Toyota has all the ingredients to build a very advanced V6 engine for Lexus F cars and the Supra. It has a 90-degree hot-vee with two variable-geometry turbochargers in serial configuration (like the legendary 2JZ-GTE) and double-intake system. It improved specific output by 50% over an old twin-turbo design. All these sound like technologies forum armchair designers would cram into a sports car engine. This engine is called F33-FTV. Why does a diesel work horse need so much technology and such high specific output? But not on cars that had to use either an outdated V8 or I6 sourced from a competitor?
 
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ssun30

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TLDR version: IMO TMC's big problem is they develop a lot of useful technologies but use them on the wrong products, and some products that need simplicity come with unnecessarily complicated technology. There is no consistency in how their R&D results should be applied.
 

Gecko

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Very well said. I have to assume there are reasons, but some of the decisions around Valvematic, VVT-iW and the F33 vs V35A have been rolling around my brain for a while now. šŸ§

One of my thoughts is that Toyota literally introduces ā€œbaseā€ versions for some of these engines and thus gives themselves things to improve and advance in the future? Otherwise some of these technologies are 20 years old and still very good - but absent today. Why? It makes no sense.
 

qtb007

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Open up the head to a Valvematic engine and take a look at all the shims and mechanisms required to make that work. I'll take D4S over that any day of the week.

As far as the GR/UR versus the V35/T24, according the fuelly, buyers are seeing a 10-25% improvement in fuel efficiency. If they are meeting buyer expectations without VVT-iW, what's the advantage to adding it? I assure you it is more costly and complicated. If the buyer wants better efficiency, there are hybrid versions available for Tundra, Highlander, RX, NX, GH, and TX. The GR Corolla doesn't have a hybrid version because it is exclusively attached to a 6MT. I appreciate averaging 29.2mpg for the 3400mi I've had my GR Corolla since premium is over $4/gal right now while still being able to rip smile inducing acceleration.

Regarding TVD, definitely a misstep putting that in the Rav4. I think Toyota way over estimated the Adventure grade of the Rav4; I almost never see them. Turns out, Rav4 buyers are more than happy to be in XLE or Limited trims and the people that actually want to go off pavement almost always go for the 4Runner.

Anyway, the short answer is Toyota tries to walk that line of meeting customer expectations for cost, quality, and performance and meeting regulations for the markets they sell. They apply the tech that they think is needed for that given car to meet the regulations and expectations of the customer. If they can meet the need without the higher tech thing, that's what they will do because they can lower the price / make more money. Simple and practical is baked into TPS.
 

NomadDan

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The F33 has always been a bit of an odd ball to me. The hot V V6 diesel is so different than anything Toyota has designed, and I donā€™t really get the point of it. The 4.5 V8 diesel in the 70 and 200 series seems to be well liked (other than the oil consumption), and I find it odd that Toyota developed a completely different oddball engine just for the 300 series. Why not continue using the V8? It makes me wonder if the F33 was intended for more vehicles, like the Prado and Hilux.

Id love to see Toyota replace both the V6 and V8 diesels with a new I6 diesel. The 2.8 I4 could gain a couple cylinders to become a 4.2, and parts commonality and availability would be fantastic. 4.2L seems like itā€™s been the magic number for Toyota I6 diesels too.

Iā€™d love to see a couple I6 petrol engines based off the A25 and T24, but I know Iā€™ve talked about that before, and I donā€™t want to sound repetitive. The V35 just seems pointless given its applications.

I get the impression like thereā€™s been a lot of internal indecisiveness at Toyota over the last decade or so, and we are now seeing the results of that, particularly with the powertrains options.
 

ssun30

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Anyway, the short answer is Toyota tries to walk that line of meeting customer expectations for cost, quality, and performance and meeting regulations for the markets they sell. They apply the tech that they think is needed for that given car to meet the regulations and expectations of the customer. If they can meet the need without the higher tech thing, that's what they will do because they can lower the price / make more money. Simple and practical is baked into TPS.
You more or less just proved my point.

For a low budget, appliance car, it makes more sense to go as simple as possible. Why would a Corolla owner care about having VVT-iEW in their $20k car? Why is that extra technology in M20, a very high volume engine that needs to be as cheap as possible, but not on T24, an engine expected to be used on more expensive and higher consumption products?

The F33 is the perfect example of this strange behaviour. What do Land Cruiser owners demand the most? Maximum durability and reliability. The last thing they want is something as complicated as a supercar engine, like the F33.

I know they got record profit levels because they clearly know what they are doing. But we don't know if they can do even better if they follow the conventional wisdom of less tech in lower end, more tech on higher end, instead of sprinkling tech randomly across the lineup.
 
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qtb007

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You more or less just proved my point.

For a low budget, appliance car, it makes more sense to go as simple as possible. Why would a Corolla owner care about having VVT-iEW in their $20k car? Why is that extra technology in M20, a very high volume engine that needs to be as cheap as possible, but not on T24, an engine expected to be used on more expensive and higher consumption products?

The F33 is the perfect example of this strange behaviour. What do Land Cruiser owners demand the most? Maximum durability and reliability. The last thing they want is something as complicated as a supercar engine, like the F33.

I know they got record profit levels because they clearly know what they are doing. But we don't know if they can do even better if they follow the conventional wisdom of less tech in lower end, more tech on higher end, instead of sprinkling tech randomly across the lineup.
Because across the vehicle lineup that gets the M20, there is probably some regulatory or customer need that means it is better to utilize the VVT-iEW than not. M20 and A25 are more or less world engines so they have to meet more varied requirements. Small sedans have more aggressive fuel economy targets than trucks and SUVs in the US, so it might need that tech to meet the targets. Or since the engine finds itself in a vehicle like the Prius, where buyers want max efficiency possible, the buyer is willing to pay for the tech. Cheap car buyers care more about fuel efficiency; people choosing a big displacement turbo 4 probably care a little less about efficiency. Tundra, Tacoma, and 4Runner buyers want durability over all else, so getting rid of the electronic VVTI might be one of those little things that doesn't impact efficiency ratings, but follows the KISS method as much as possible.

I'm sure these things are considered, along with logistics and supply chain, and the groups that design the vehicles and drivetrains act accordingly. For every question you've asked, I'm sure there is a spreadsheet at TMC that answers why. Not saying that every justification on those spreadsheets turned out to be correct, but they justify all their decisions at development phase. They just don't often do it publicly.