Toyota President declares 'No more boring cars'

[Tragic Bronson]

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/toyota-president-declares-no-more-boring-cars

Prius and Camry usher in new era of Toyota styling

DETROIT -- Akio Toyoda has issued a companywide decree for "no more boring cars." And to back it up, the Toyota Motor Corp. president has given designers greater clout than ever.

The shift of power away from engineers delivered its first daring design in the futuristic, fin-tailed 2016 Prius. The latest is the 2018 Camry sedan, with its bold proportions and flared sheet metal.

At the Camry's debut this month in Detroit, Toyoda asked the overcapacity crowd if the eighth-generation sedan was sexy or really sexy. It speaks to a dramatic, if risky, move from the ho-hum Toyota of old.

The key to the automaker's styling push is a revamped vehicle-development strategy that elevates a new "product chief designer" to work alongside the chief engineer as equal partners in creating a car.

The idea would have been unthinkable at the world's biggest automaker just a few years ago.

For decades, design was routinely sacrificed at the hands of Toyota's production engineers, a coterie revered internally as "production gods" for their relentless pursuit of efficiency and the brutal veto power they wielded over any product flourish deemed too frivolous for the factory.

But Toyoda, in his own pursuit of sexy cars, has cut them down a notch.

Starting with the fourth-generation Prius, Toyota has overhauled how products are designed. The product chief designer was hatched as a kind of guardian of the styling studio's true intent, shepherding it from the day of the initial sketch to the car's line-off.

Stronger voice

The gambit could easily have gone awry.

Camry Chief Engineer Masato Katsumata, who also led development of the current, seventh-generation Camry, remembers the old days of the overlording production gods.

"Normally Toyota styling is not so sexy or three-dimensional. That's because, I'm sorry to say, on the production engineering side, they do not take risks," Katsumata said.

Quality control was job one, and complicated designs that necessitated complicated production methods needlessly raised the danger of defects.

Then there were the added costs of producing complex sheet-metal stamps.

"So then finally, the designer's direction is pulled back," Katsumata said.

It required pressure from the very top to break the mold.

"It basically comes down to someone at the top saying, "We have to do this.' And giving design a much stronger voice than ever before in this company," said Ian Cartabiano, the Toyota design veteran who penned the initial 2-inch sketch of the new Camry in his calendar journal.

"And now, because of Akio, design has a really strong voice," he told Automotive News.

In Detroit, Toyoda conceded, "It's no secret that I like to involve myself in the design process."

But Cartabiano, chief designer at Toyota's Calty studio in California, also played a key role in the change. He pushed the envelope as designer of some of Toyota's most striking recent vehicles, including the Lexus LF-LC concept sport coupe and the Toyota C-HR subcompact cross-over.

For the Camry, styling stewardship was entrusted to Akira Kubota as product chief designer. Cartabiano said Kubota faithfully fulfilled his duty of shepherding the original vision.

"We actually started with that 2-inch doodle," Cartabiano said of his calendar book drawing. "And it became sketch, bigger sketch, bigger sketch, model. But that original intention followed all the way through to the cars.

"It was totally new for us," he said. "There's always been a designer, but the chief engineer has been the top guy. It was always just 100 percent engineering."

The Camry was a tough test of Toyota's quest for zest. Go too wild, and the traditionally vanilla family sedan might alienate the masses that have made it America's best-selling car for 15 years straight. Katsumata's Camry development team also wanted to maximize the functionality of the car to counter the public's stampede to utility vehicles.

Designers eschewed the fashion of ever-narrowing greenhouses to create bigger windows and clear visibility, Cartabiano said. Toyota also stretched back the car's roof peak to give more headroom in the rear seat and added 2 inches to the wheelbase to improve rear door access. The trunk lid opens almost past vertical to allow better cargo stowing.

But the Camry makes the biggest waves with its more dynamic exterior contours.

Part of the breakthrough came from Toyoda forcing the change. But new metal-stamping innovations also cleared the way for creating the designers' sharp creases and curvy edges without the splintering of fragile edges in the factory. The advent of high-tensile steel also helped -- as does the fact that Toyota, as one of the world's richest automakers, can afford to splurge on new technologies.

"The fact that production engineering can make the shapes that designers dream about, that's really great for us," Cartabiano said. "I think you're going to see a lot of kick ass products coming out of Toyota in the next couple years. And Camry's a good start."

 

[mmcartalk]

Starting with the fourth-generation Prius, Toyota has overhauled how products are designed.

With the 4G Prius? I'll say it has.

Actually, though, under the sheet metal and design of the dash (both, I agree, are eyesores), the new Prius seems quite well-built, with good materials....noticeably more so than the 3Gen version, which IMO was a disappointment. And it drives much better than past Prius models. If I could drive it blindfolded, I'd actually be fairly content.

 

[CIF]

While I am not against this push by Akio Toyoda, I hope this doesn't mean no more quality cars, and no more comfortable cars. The obsession with low profile tires has got to stop, at least on the bigger, more rugged and less sporty models in the lineup.

I recently had a chance to spend some extended time with a brand new RX350. It was a non F-Sport RX350 AWD, without AVS and with the optional 20" wheels with 55 profile tires. I must say, the ride was somewhat bumpy and harsh. I can't comment on how AVS would have made a difference, but I'm pretty sure much of this was down to the 55 profile tires. Had this RX been equipped with the base 18" wheels with 65 profile tires, then I think the ride would have been noticeably better.

 

[mmcartalk]

While I am not against this push by Akio Toyoda, I hope this doesn't mean no more quality cars, and no more comfortable cars. The obsession with low profile tires has got to stop, at least on the bigger, more rugged and less sporty models in the lineup.

I recently had a chance to spend some extended time with a brand new RX350. It was a non F-Sport RX350 AWD, without AVS and with the optional 20" wheels with 55 profile tires. I must say, the ride was somewhat bumpy and harsh. I can't comment on how AVS would have made a difference, but I'm pretty sure much of this was down to the 55 profile tires. Had this RX been equipped with the base 18" wheels with 65 profile tires, then I think the ride would have been noticeably better.

Totally agree, CIF. I've been complaining about the wagon-wheel and rubber-band-tire craze for years. The auto journalists and enthusiast-magazines, in general, were the main ones pushing it......now, even some of them have started to complain, as several of their publications are based in Michigan, where the roads are full of potholes, cracks, warps, and frost-heaves.

 

[Gecko]

While I am not against this push by Akio Toyoda, I hope this doesn't mean no more quality cars, and no more comfortable cars. The obsession with low profile tires has got to stop, at least on the bigger, more rugged and less sporty models in the lineup.

I recently had a chance to spend some extended time with a brand new RX350. It was a non F-Sport RX350 AWD, without AVS and with the optional 20" wheels with 55 profile tires. I must say, the ride was somewhat bumpy and harsh. I can't comment on how AVS would have made a difference, but I'm pretty sure much of this was down to the 55 profile tires. Had this RX been equipped with the base 18" wheels with 65 profile tires, then I think the ride would have been noticeably better.

If anything, I believe Akio is the one who brought quality BACK to Toyota after they let it slip. Word is that he forced the 2015 Camry refresh to be so drastic because the interior of the 2012 - 2014 model was so cheap. Look at the interior of the Highlander, refreshed Rav4 and essentially every Lexus model produced lately. Akio is the one who made Toyota refocus on quality.

Big wheels and firmer suspensions are here to stay - it's what most consumers want. Good news is that there are more options than ever, from sports packages to wheel sizes, so people should be able to choose what they want.

 

[mikeavelli]

An enthusiast and a designer run Lexus. Its rolling over to Toyota. There is no exaggeration when I say, that white camry SE they showed had me drooling. I have NEVER drooled over a Camry before.

As Gecko states, he is also on top of quality so some amazing cars should be coming.

 

[mmcartalk]

If anything, I believe Akio is the one who brought quality BACK to Toyota after they let it slip. Word is that he forced the 2015 Camry refresh to be so drastic because the interior of the 2012 - 2014 model was so cheap.

Actually, although the sheet metal and doors seemed thinner, the 2012-2014 version of the Camry you speak of, IMO, had a better, more solidly-built interior, using better materials, than the XV40 2006-2011 version, which had some of the worst plastic I ever saw on a Camry. I still think the 3rd-generation, 1992-1996 Camry was the best one they ever did, though......I still see them on the road with well over 200K miles on them.

Big wheels and firmer suspensions are here to stay - it's what most consumers want.

Asa CIF pointed out (and I agree with him), It's what consumers want on sport-oriented vehicles.....not on bread-and-butter vehicles. Yet, the manufacturers keep putting them on both.

 

[Gecko]

Actually, although the sheet metal and doors seemed thinner, the 2012-2014 version of the Camry you speak of, IMO, had a better, more solidly-built interior, using better materials, than the XV40 2006-2011 version, which had some of the worst plastic I ever saw on a Camry. I still think the 3rd-generation, 1992-1996 Camry was the best one they ever did, though......I still see them on the road with well over 200K miles on them.

I have owned or extensively driven 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th gen Camrys and have to disagree with you. The 2006-2011 had a very basic design, but the materials were not terrible, and Toyota nicely refreshed them towards the end of the lifecycle. If you've ever been in a 2012-2014 Camry, it feels like the AC or volume knobs could snap off in your hand. Much of the plastic on the transmission tunnel cover and lower parts of the doors is just downright terrible. The 2012-2014 was truly a low point for Toyota, IMO.

Asa CIF pointed out (and I agree with him), It's what consumers want on sport-oriented vehicles.....not on bread-and-butter vehicles. Yet, the manufacturers keep putting them on both.

This is not correct. Take a look at wheel sizes on Camrys and Accords these days. We've gone from 15-16" as standard a few years ago to now very often 17" standard and 19" on sport packages and as an option. 19s and 20s on many SUVs as standard. Big wheels "look sporty." Consumers like vehicles that "look sporty" and they're willing to give up some ride quality to get that look. 2016 was a record year for car sales, and I didn't see many people swapping to smaller wheels...

 

[mmcartalk]

I have owned or extensively driven 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th gen Camrys and have to disagree with you. The 2006-2011 had a very basic design, but the materials were not terrible, and Toyota nicely refreshed them towards the end of the lifecycle. If you've ever been in a 2012-2014 Camry, it feels like the AC or volume knobs could snap off in your hand. Much of the plastic on the transmission tunnel cover and lower parts of the doors is just downright terrible. The 2012-2014 was truly a low point for Toyota, IMO.

OK...I respect your opinions here, but I did a full-review on a 2006 Camry, and found it to be the cheapest-designed Camry I had ever sampled (and the 3Gen arguably the best). Of course opinions can vary on that....it was a subjective opinion on my part.

This is not correct. Take a look at wheel sizes on Camrys and Accords these days. We've gone from 15-16" as standard a few years ago to now very often 17" standard and 19" on sport packages and as an option. 19s and 20s on many SUVs as standard. Big wheels "look sporty." Consumers like vehicles that "look sporty" and they're willing to give up some ride quality to get that look. 2016 was a record year for car sales, and I didn't see many people swapping to smaller wheels...

I agree that wheel/tire combinations even on bread-and-butter vehicles are larger than in the past, but still question some of the motives behind it. A number of manufacturers are heavily influenced by the auto press and the sporting/enthusiast crowd....and it's getting to the point were even some auto journalists are complying about too much harshness. Yes, as you correctly point out, a lot of people are buying them, but, based on much of what I hear and see regularly from typical buyers, it is because they have so little choice nowadays. They want the ride and comfort of the older wheels, but they are simply no longer available....and many buyers dimply don't have the extra cash lying around to invest in aftermarket down-sizing of wheels and tires.....assuming one can safely and effectively do it on that particular car to start with.

 

[CIF]

If anything, I believe Akio is the one who brought quality BACK to Toyota after they let it slip. Word is that he forced the 2015 Camry refresh to be so drastic because the interior of the 2012 - 2014 model was so cheap. Look at the interior of the Highlander, refreshed Rav4 and essentially every Lexus model produced lately. Akio is the one who made Toyota refocus on quality.

Big wheels and firmer suspensions are here to stay - it's what most consumers want. Good news is that there are more options than ever, from sports packages to wheel sizes, so people should be able to choose what they want.

I agree with the quality point, and I'll just clarify a bit. I know that Akio has helped bring quality back to Toyota. I meant that I hope that Akio keeps the quality high, even with this focus on design (and performance). Also additionally, I meant that while keeping quality high and with the focus on design, that some models retain comfort, even if the market trend is for stiff suspensions and low profile tires/large wheels. Also directly to your point about choice, I fully agree, and as a full line automaker, I hope Toyota retains lots of choice. The more choices for a varying customers, the better IMHO.

This is not correct. Take a look at wheel sizes on Camrys and Accords these days. We've gone from 15-16" as standard a few years ago to now very often 17" standard and 19" on sport packages and as an option. 19s and 20s on many SUVs as standard. Big wheels "look sporty." Consumers like vehicles that "look sporty" and they're willing to give up some ride quality to get that look. 2016 was a record year for car sales, and I didn't see many people swapping to smaller wheels...

Well yes this has been the general market trend, but I want more comfort and more isolation, not less. It's interesting that a few brands like BMW are adding more comfort and isolation to their models, because according to them, that's what many of their customers are asking.

Also during Toyota's on-going 5 continents drive, in some of the countries where Toyota employees spoke with customers, many customers remarked that some models are too stiff. So yes this is indeed the market trend, but Toyota also needs to carefully pay attention to customers, which the 5 continents drive is helping them do.

Also to add to what mmcartalk was saying, there is a rumor out there I've heard in regards to another reason as to why many automakers are fully embracing large wheels and low profile tires on many models. I have no idea if this is actually true or not, but just stating here what I have heard. Apparently the rumor is that one reason automakers are pushing larger wheels and tires is the increased dealer visits and repair costs associated with increased tire replacement, tire damage, and rim damage associated with large wheels/low profile tires. As any experienced auto enthusiast knows, large wheels with low profile tires not only ride stiff, but on poor roads such a combination also increases the risk of tire puncture/damage as well as rim damage. That and of course the low profile tires themselves having a lower tread life, necessitating replacing tires more often.

 

[Gecko]

Also to add to what mmcartalk was saying, there is a rumor out there I've heard in regards to another reason as to why many automakers are fully embracing large wheels and low profile tires on many models. I have no idea if this is actually true or not, but just stating here what I have heard. Apparently the rumor is that one reason automakers are pushing larger wheels and tires is the increased dealer visits and repair costs associated with increased tire replacement, tire damage, and rim damage associated with large wheels/low profile tires. As any experienced auto enthusiast knows, large wheels with low profile tires not only ride stiff, but on poor roads such a combination also increases the risk of tire puncture/damage as well as rim damage. That and of course the low profile tires themselves having a lower tread life, necessitating replacing tires more often.

Having worked in dealerships for years, I would highly doubt that being true. The margin on tires for dealers is incredibly thin because the market is so competitive... a couple of bucks per tire. And with most cars having 5k maintenance intervals now, I would doubt they use tires as an excuse to get people in for inspections to find other maintenance problems.

Just my .02!

 

[mikeavelli]

Having worked in dealerships for years, I would highly doubt that being true. The margin on tires for dealers is incredibly thin because the market is so competitive... a couple of bucks per tire. And with most cars having 5k maintenance intervals now, I would doubt they use tires as an excuse to get people in for inspections to find other maintenance problems.

Just my .02!

Very true, margins are thin on tires. Vehicles continue to grow in size thus wheels continue to get bigger. Also technology is getting so good that these vehicles don't drive harsh with 20s and low profile tires.

I also agree with your Camry points. It was some stupid internet sensation to beat up the Camry when it was improved.

 

[CIF]

Having worked in dealerships for years, I would highly doubt that being true. The margin on tires for dealers is incredibly thin because the market is so competitive... a couple of bucks per tire. And with most cars having 5k maintenance intervals now, I would doubt they use tires as an excuse to get people in for inspections to find other maintenance problems.

Just my .02!

Very true, margins are thin on tires. Vehicles continue to grow in size thus wheels continue to get bigger. Also technology is getting so good that these vehicles don't drive harsh with 20s and low profile tires.

I also agree with your Camry points. It was some stupid internet sensation to beat up the Camry when it was improved.

Thanks for clearing that up guys! Well then that rumor is false.

Also Mike regarding that bolded part, I think that only applies to certain models and trims. As I mentioned above in this thread, my recent experience in a brand new RX 350 AWD non F-Sport model without AVS and with the optional 55 profile 20" wheels/tires was not very luxurious. The ride was somewhat harsh and bumpy. Maybe AVS makes a big difference, I don't know, but on the non-AVS equipped model I was in, I was disappointed in terms of ride quality.

 

[mmcartalk]

Also technology is getting so good that these vehicles don't drive harsh with 20s and low profile tires.

As I mentioned above in this thread, my recent experience in a brand new RX350 AWD non F-Sport model without AVS and with the optional 55 profile 20" wheels/tires was not very luxurious. The ride was somewhat harsh and bumpy. Maybe AVS makes a big difference, I don't know, but on the non-AVS equipped model I was in, I was disappointed in terms of ride quality.

While it is true that technology can sometimes help (like variable-shock damping), most of the time I have to agree with CIF. I've yet to find a set of 20s or greater, especially with low-profile tires, that I had what I would call a comfortable ride. One or two 19"-equipped cars with 45s have, such as on the Hyundai Genesis/Genesis G80.......and that was because of the car's relatively long wheelbase and compliant suspension. And the last-generation BMW 335i, even with the Sport-Package suspension and very-low-profile 35-series tires (which I reviewed), had an excellent ride/handling combination. But, for the most part, in my experience, with few exceptions, all else equal, the larger the wheel, and the thinner the tire-sidewall, the worse the ride (and the less pothole-impact protection for the wheel and tire you will get). That's just physics.

 

[CIF]

It also is a matter of market segment, and expectations IMO. For example, I would not have high expectations for a BMW sports sedan to have a very comfortable and supple ride. I would expect it to be firm but compliant. However on a vehicle like the RX, a luxury Lexus crossover, I personally expect a very supple and comfortable ride with decent handling, regardless of options or trim level. For a market segment like supercars or exotic cars, I would have very low comfort expectations, and instead would expect incredible handling and performance. Or for a market segment like minivans, I would expect a very comfortable ride, yet you have models like the Honda Odyssey that have a fairly stiff ride for a minivan.

Also I'm sure expectations of what a comfortable ride is, differs between people. I'm probably pickier than average in terms of what I deem as a comfortable and supple ride. I do expect decent handling as well, but I personally prioritize comfort over handling. For these reasons and others, that is why my next vehicle will likely be a midsize or larger body-on-frame SUV with thick tires.

 

[mmcartalk]

It also is a matter of market segment, and expectations IMO. For example, I would not have high expectations for a BMW sports sedan to have a very comfortable and supple ride.

The last-generation BMW 335i (I don't know if you sampled one or not) delivered both an excellent ride and excellent handling.......something quite rare.

 

[CIF]

The last-generation BMW 335i (I don't know if you sampled one or not) delivered both an excellent ride and excellent handling.......something quite rare.

Yes, the E90 did have excellent handling combined with a good ride. I wouldn't call the ride excellent, but it was good, especially given the excellent handling.

 

[mmcartalk]

Yes, the E90 did have excellent handling combined with a good ride. I wouldn't call the ride excellent, but it was good, especially given the excellent handling.

The 335i's ride IMO was superb considering the Sport-Package's 35-series tires and the way the suspension was tuned.....not to mention the tactile-feel to the steering that BMW's hydraulic steering gave you in the days before the electric pumps. While I have a great deal of respect for Toyota's reliability, I've never seen anywhere near that ride/handling combination on any Toyota or Lexus product....even the IS.

 

[CIF]

The 335i's ride IMO was superb considering the Sport-Package's 35-series tires and the way the suspension was tuned.....not to mention the tactile-feel to the steering that BMW's hydraulic steering gave you in the days before the electric pumps. While I have a great deal of respect for Toyota's reliability, I've never seen anywhere near that ride/handling combination on any Toyota or Lexus product....even the IS.

I see your point, but this is minor semantics at this point . I reserve the praise of excellent ride for a truly comfortable ride whether on-road, off-road, or going through serious pothole-filled roads.

I will add that yes, given the handling and low profile tires, the ride was very, very good. I simply feel personally, that an excellent ride was unachievable given the focus on sport and performance for the E90. Still, a great achievement either way.