mikeavelli

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problem with RZ comes with its inefficiency and poor usable battery size, as well as gen 1 software when everyone is few gens ahead.

IE 63kw usable, 120 miles in 75 mph C&D run, and very slow charging (slowest on the market for new product), is a huge reality check.

If you really dont compare it to anything else, and you dont really care about EVs or want to drive EVs, in its own bubble it is ok... but it is not in its own bubble and I would never recommend anyone use their own money to get RZ or BZX.

So RZ450e check list goes like this:
- Huge Lexus fan
- Can charge at home at 208v
- Can lease it at good price
- Hate Tesla and everything it stands for.
- Never ever plan to take it for trips over 100 miles.

If all is checked, it is fine.

But otherwise, it is most uncompetitive product in Lexus lineup, including GX, including UX and everything in between.

Yeah nothing you mentioned is unknown. This isn’t some game changer in the BEV field. They are only planning to sell 6k in 2023. They sell that many Model 3s in two weeks. This is aimed at a Lexus loyalist or someone who wants something different. Tesla has far superior BEV tech and supercharging as they should. That is all they sell.

FYI, you can buy a competitor to Tesla and not hate Tesla.

Like I said for me personally the Model S/Plaid would be my Tesla of choice.
 

spwolf

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Yeah nothing you mentioned is unknown. This isn’t some game changer in the BEV field. They are only planning to sell 6k in 2023. They sell that many Model 3s in two weeks. This is aimed at a Lexus loyalist or someone who wants something different. Tesla has far superior BEV tech and supercharging as they should. That is all they sell.

FYI, you can buy a competitor to Tesla and not hate Tesla.

Like I said for me personally the Model S/Plaid would be my Tesla of choice.

my remarks were not for you Mike, just overall.

Plenty of people dont want Tesla, and want to get a Lexus no matter what. As long as they can charge at home at 208v + dont drive for more than 100 mile road trips, they will be ok as long as it is a lease and they dont have to worry about selling it later.

People who want something more luxurious than Tesla, but are good with BMW, MB and Audi, are unfortunately not going to get this either. Because iX, Eqe suv, etc, etc, are better choices on EV side of things.
 

mikeavelli

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my remarks were not for you Mike, just overall.

Plenty of people dont want Tesla, and want to get a Lexus no matter what. As long as they can charge at home at 208v + dont drive for more than 100 mile road trips, they will be ok as long as it is a lease and they dont have to worry about selling it later.

People who want something more luxurious than Tesla, but are good with BMW, MB and Audi, are unfortunately not going to get this either. Because iX, Eqe suv, etc, etc, are better choices on EV side of things.

Well I also think a lot of it isn’t logic but emotion. People like that Tesla isn’t a legacy brand. They like no dealerships. They like over air updates. They feel it’s the best technology today. They like the glass window screen and airy feel. They like the styling (cyber truck help us all)

I’ve also felt if Tesla was exactly the same but named “Buick” no one would buy them. Simply because they don’t want to be seen in a Buick. I do feel Lexus isn’t that old to people so they have an opportunity to reinvent the brand through BEVs.
 

internalaudit

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iX3 coming stateside (or maybe not lol, BMW did post a clip yesterday or today on its YT channel).

Lots of choices to be had but I'll likely stick with a Lexus/Toyota and Acura if only for reliability and total lower cost of ownership over 15, not five years. These two are no slouches when it comes to hybrid technology and I expect much better BEVS from these two in three to five years.

We don't know how much progress Tesla will have on its current and future line up. It's not like the bar keeps getting set higher anyway with Tesla's anyway, it's just the competition have been quite ho-hum. Tesla's are good vehicles but I wouldn't bother with those single central display systems on the 3 and Y and the Plaid is too expensive for my household anyway (and a Taycan 4S would be a better choice for me at that price point since I don't race/track and don't need anything more than 400 HP really) unless I get to drive one for free or pay for one at ridiculous fire sale price (which isn't going to happen and I'm not going to hope for).
 
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mikeavelli

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iX3 coming stateside (or maybe not lol, BMW did post a clip yesterday or today on its YT channel).

Lots of choices to be had but I'll likely stick with a Lexus/Toyota and Acura if only for reliability and total lower cost of ownership over 15, not five years. These two are no slouches when it comes to hybrid technology and I expect much better BEVS from these two in three to five years.

We don't know how much progress Tesla will have on its current and future line up. It's not like the bar keeps getting set higher anyway with Tesla's anyway, it's just the competition have been quite ho-hum. Tesla's are good vehicles but I wouldn't bother with those single central display systems on the 3 and Y and the Plaid is too expensive for my household anyway (and a Taycan 4S would be a better choice for me at that price point since I don't race/track and don't need anything more than 400 HP really) unless I get to drive one for free or pay for one at ridiculous fire sale price (which isn't going to happen and I'm not going to hope for).

The German interior are definitely better. I spent some time in an EQS sedan and suv and wow, so well done (obviously costs more).

The Acura is a rebadged GM. I would just get the Blazer EV at that point or the Cadillac…

IMG_2580.jpegIMG_2578.jpeg
 

Gor134

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I'm not sold on the current generation of Mercedes interiors. I have not been impressed by the 206 or the 223 interiors, maybe the EQSs have higher quality materials? But the 206/223 definitely felt like regressions in terms of interior luxury.. the 205 was quite cheap feeling as well but at least the 222 felt like proper luxury to me.
 

internalaudit

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The German interior are definitely better. I spent some time in an EQS sedan and suv and wow, so well done (obviously costs more).

The Acura is a rebadged GM. I would just get the Blazer EV at that point or the Cadillac…

View attachment 7015View attachment 7016
I sure am not going for any Honda/Acura Ultium BEV.

Will wait for in-house development haha.

I still can't believe why manufacturers aren't too keen on offering BEVs with torque vectoring. Even Toyota shuns marketing its brake-based TV when it's already implemented across many models in its line up.
 
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mikeavelli

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mikeavelli

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Okay more interesting stuff. As you bring up torque vectoring, both the RZ and RX have direct-4. I am firmly in belief the RX is more playful and fun with that system. The RZ just feels so planted in comparison.

What’s interesting is weights. RX 500h actually weighs more at 4700lbs. RX is 4550-4600. RX has 366hp and 409lbs of torque. RZ has 308hp and 320lbs of torque. RX 500 does 0-60 in mid to high 5s. RZ does it in high 4s to low 5s.

For comparisons sake a Long Range Model Y weighs about 4300lbs and does 0-60 in low 4s.


Seems the LR AWD now has a 325 mile range down from 358.. not sure why exactly..
 

internalaudit

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Okay more interesting stuff. As you bring up torque vectoring, both the RZ and RX have direct-4. I am firmly in belief the RX is more playful and fun with that system. The RZ just feels so planted in comparison.

What’s interesting is weights. RX 500h actually weighs more at 4700lbs. RX is 4550-4600. RX has 366hp and 409lbs of torque. RZ has 308hp and 320lbs of torque. RX 500 does 0-60 in mid to high 5s. RZ does it in high 4s to low 5s.

For comparisons sake a Long Range Model Y weighs about 4300lbs and does 0-60 in low 4s.


Seems the LR AWD now has a 325 mile range down from 358.. not sure why exactly..
Toyota intentionally designed its BEVs to prolong battery life is what I'm thinking:
  • lower fast charging speed (fast charging does lead to deterioration)
  • shorter driving distance (narrower SOC and higher reserve capacity)
  • lower motor output (it could have put in the same rear motor in front but chose to put 1/2 the motor output upfront / for the bZ4X, AWD motors are only a few HP higher than the single motor variant)
Yeah, Direct4 is a nice first step but that's just shifting power between front and rear axles and not between the rear wheels. I sure wouldn't mind a used RZ down the road for my wife if they're priced right. By that time, I think there will be Lexus BEVs with TVD, I just can't fathom why they wouldn't be offered as an option when some trims of Toyota/Lexus products already have them (RC and Highlander come to mind).

TVD is naturally one step above electronic stability program (ESP) and I'd rather have a BEV with that for safety and handling advantages. It snows in Toronto, Canada and those Acura or Honda's with SH-AWD or iVTM4 handle winter road conditions with aplomb. BEVs with TVD will likely be even better with faster response times and no linkages between the front and rear axles.
 

internalaudit

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Simple business practice, to make you buy the next product that will have the other thing you wanted.
Haha. Good point.

Glad I feel and think my CT200h and Accord will likely last at least three to four more years, if not until the end of the decade.

The later the impulse purchase, the better for my pocket book.
 

spwolf

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Okay more interesting stuff. As you bring up torque vectoring, both the RZ and RX have direct-4. I am firmly in belief the RX is more playful and fun with that system. The RZ just feels so planted in comparison.

What’s interesting is weights. RX 500h actually weighs more at 4700lbs. RX is 4550-4600. RX has 366hp and 409lbs of torque. RZ has 308hp and 320lbs of torque. RX 500 does 0-60 in mid to high 5s. RZ does it in high 4s to low 5s.

For comparisons sake a Long Range Model Y weighs about 4300lbs and does 0-60 in low 4s.


Seems the LR AWD now has a 325 mile range down from 358.. not sure why exactly..

there is a lot more power available to RZ compared to RX500h direct4, plus it is on all 4 wheels.
I am not sure of the specifics for 500h system, but maximum Toyota hybrid battery output is usually between 40 and 60hp. So that is about what RX500h can play with.

While on RZ you have a ton more power at the rear.
 

ssun30

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there is a lot more power available to RZ compared to RX500h direct4, plus it is on all 4 wheels.
I am not sure of the specifics for 500h system, but maximum Toyota hybrid battery output is usually between 40 and 60hp. So that is about what RX500h can play with.

While on RZ you have a ton more power at the rear.
The RX500h has a 72kW battery (288V@250A). It's their most powerful hybrid battery to date. The bipolar NiMH design allows them to cycle at a whopping 50C.
 

mikeavelli

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Well today was my first full day in the RZ. Decided to shoot it at a winery in the North GA Mountains. I then drove it up and down the same mountain I took the RX 500h in two weeks ago. Pretty tired. I’ve never taken an EV this far or on a mountain run before. My photographer was with me.

I made it from Atlanta to basically Helen GA and back with 20 miles left. i left with 208 miles. It was a perfect spring day so I was lucky enough to roll the windows down and enjoy the weather which helps range.

At no time was I worried about range having calculated everything. That said Tesla’s dominance was clear as the winery ONLY had Tesla chargers. I think 8 of them. So i couldn’t charge there for the couple of hours we were there. It was free. Even on the way back there are zero charge point chargers for 50 or so miles. There was an EV Go charger at the outlets but I wasn’t downloading ANOTHER APP to use,

The RZ is built like a tank. Nothing resembling a rattle. Not a creak. Not a sound. I assume Lexus was so worried about reliability that they overbuilt it. Acceleration is brisk. There is a big difference between sport and “range” mode with throttle response. Sport for me, It’s not Model 3 Dual Motor Fast as your head and brain still work after pressing the pedal.

The 14”’screen anf HUD are great. Cabin feels really airy. My interior is all black with only a bit of silver and graphite touches. Really boring. Did I mention how quiet it is inside. Whisper quiet.

In the mountains I pushed the RZ as hard as it would go. My initial worries went away after the first couple of turns. It immediately felt more planted and easier to drive than the RX. Credit the lower weight, center of gravity and throttle response which is linear. Also no real shifting with the transmission and slowing into corners is easier as the car eases up when you let off the gas. I pushed and pushed and pushed and could not get the rear to swing or even get the 18 “
bridgestones to squeal. Shocking, Only a couple of times I went into a corner too fast and eased off things or tapped the lines in the road. But I never felt like I was close to losing the RZ, Brakes are much smaller than the 500 but no issues. Steering was super direct and the steering wheel really has a good size to it. That said through it all even though I likely was faster in the RZ, I simply never felt connected to the road nor was it enjoyable being so mute. Fast with no feelings…

In comparison the RX 500h felt more fun and livelier with more body roll. Kinda gotta wrestle her a bit as Direct-4 seems to engage far more in corners. Tires squeal much more and the front end goes in hot if you let it. The rear can swing but again Direct-4 saves it. It’s no V-8 but the I-4 turbo and 6 speed actually shifts and makes noise.

Ideally I’m not waking up at 6am to take either on mountain runs. What is absolutely crazy is you could. Something unheard of from Lexus just a couple of years ago in a SUV. The Lexus Driving Signature is a real thing. Now 99% of owners won’t do anything close to what I did today. But I’m happy to report the RZ got me back home after a grueling day with me up North.

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