Stop Making Excuses

[Yuan]

My unedited quick rant

People need to stop giving excuses to Lexus.

The obvisous thing, Toyota never tried enough to make Lexus distinctive from Toyota. Yes, Having modular platforms help reduce cost and VAG does it too, but why is the Lexus Canada website under "Toyota Canada INC"? Does Lexus have the same brand management as Toyota? Clearly, They never bothered to make Lexus "The Luxury Brand of Toyota", but just a luxury brand made by Toyota.

It is true that SUVs are getting more sales, but how are Mercedes and BMW still able to make their C Class and 3 Series their best selling model in the US? Yes, their SUVs don't sell as much as Lexus, but the 3 Series is the second best selling luxury model with 100k(give or take) anual sale on average.

How is BMW able to increase the 5 Series' monthly sale number to around 5000 even with the excuses that sedans don't sell anymore? And the fact that the 5 series is more expensive than the ES and have RWD based AWD system just proves the market is not the problem, Lexus is the problem. Lexus need to stop making excuses, and be true to the consumers. "Experience Amazing" I giggle every time when Lexus mention the phrase in their commercials. How do people experience amazing when they spent 12 years to renew the LS just to get overshadowed by Mercedes' refreshed S Class few months later? 5LS does not ride as well and is underpowered, although the interior is nice, it's just comparative to the S Class or marginally better, not "blow everyone out of the water" like the current gen S Class did.

Why take so long to renew/refresh the IS, RC, GX, LX? I mean the steering wheel design of the IS, RC and NX is so dated even compare to the last gen BMWs and pre-refreshed Mercedes, the refreshed C Class just got the amazing new steering wheel design from the S Class so why would anyone choose the IS and RC over the C Class and the fact the C Class got a refresh of both the interior and exterior. It's just a steering wheel, how hard is it to put into the models? Why didn't the refreshed NX get the new steering wheel and why did the 2018 GS get the new steering wheel, but not the GSF? Even just the steering wheel will improve the interior, thus improve the sale number, but Lexus choose not to do anything and just keep making lame excuses and blame the model. Funny how Mercedes just renewed the CLS, and introduced the GT 4DS and BMW teasing the 8 Series GC when Lexus have been trying to axe the GS for the bland ES and boring* SUVs.

The IS, RC, GS kept falling behind because the design is dated compare to the competitions and Lexus themselves are the culprit, from the lack of model planning and unwillingness to accept the problem of their arrogance and stubbornness. Seriously, they regreted prioritize the RC over the RXL, WTF? How many year have the RC been on the market? They didn't do sh*t for the RXL, I mean, extend the overhand and stretch the C pillar a bit was all they did for three years and they had the face to blame developing of the RC, and they didn't even try their best on that. If Lexus think SUVs are more important than sedans, at least make exciting SUVs. Just having 30 more HP in the F Sport trims is enough to make their cookie cutters more exciting, I have yet to see many 20 Y/O drving NX, RX, GX, LX and actually praise Lexus SUVs for excitement other than the hit and miss spindle grille. This is why Mercedes is THE* luxury brand with BMW and Audi close behind, and Lexus is just another luxury brand.

Also, has anyone notice the pattern between the designs? The best looking ones are all designed by CALTY (LFLC, LFFC, LF1, FT1, Camry), yet somehow Toyota mess up everthing when the designs transfer to Japan for production. "However, Calty's sporty designs (LS400)came into conflict with executives in Japan, who favored a more conservative car that appealed to middle-aged Japanese executives." Seems like Toyota never changed.

 

[ssun30]

I wouldn't like to refute your opinion but here are some simple answers:
1) Lexus is financially successful. It is the closest luxury brand to MB. BMW and Audi aren't as impressive when you subtract the 'pleb models' they make these days. It is true MB is very strong and seems unbeatable in recent years. It is a problem shared by BMW and Audi as well.
2) Lexus has some very successful products, and some very unsuccessful ones, just like every other automaker. But they have no obligation to use a strategy that is a mirror image of the German Big Three.
3) There are priorities, so they couldn't update everything at once.
4) They are the king of luxury SUVs, no question needs to be asked here. NX is what makes Lexus have the youngest buyer demographics, among all automakers, in China (their 2nd major market). So your 'young people don't drive Lexus SUVs' argument is invalid.
5) They deserve all the criticism on the current state of their sedan line-up. Very poorly planned, managed, and executed. The LS launch in particular is weak.
6) About the engine issue. One thing that I find very annoying is that, Toyota engineers are responsible for drivetrain integration on Lexus cars. This explains why Lexus vehicles seem perennially underpowered compared to competition: these are exact carbon copies of Toyota engines. This is why you don't see special up-tuned engines for F-Sport. If Lexus was to make a Civic Type-R they would just throw that Accord engine in it without even changing any hardware.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

While I love Calty and everything they do, the LS400 was unquestionably the right design for that time. It looks boxy and dated now, but it was the peak of elegance in the 90s.

 

[Yuan]

By young people, I mean 20 to 30 year old, Lexus have the youngest buyer demographics? Compared to what? The pre spindle grille era? Almost no young buyers of the NX buy the SUV for the driving excitement, just for the bold design. I don't know anyone around me (Toronto) that even care about NX and RX for the driving excitement, and I'm surrounded by thousands of 20-25 year olds. Where is the proof of Lexus having the youngest demographics amoung all brands in China? When I go back to China every summer, I have never seen any young adults with NX and RX, and I see that with my own eyes.

BMW and Audi have pleb models, of course, but even their pleb models are way more exciting than NX and RX, not everyone buy cars for excitement, but that is not the excuse. If Lexus was before their spindle grille era, then I would not complain as I would not even care about the brand aside from the LFA, but now is different. What disgust me is how Lexus want to be more prestigeous than MB, but they still only care about sale numbers and profit. Lexus is financialy successful and it has nothing to with their cars, TMC is known for manufacturing effiency and yada yada, they are just good with maximizing profit.


BMW and Audi don't have unsuccessful models, rather less successful models, however, Lexus have whole bunch of strugling cars, IS, RC, GS, even the brand new LC is not doing that well just a year later with less than 200 monthly sales. Speaking of priorities, how big is Toyota? Are they not able to hire more people to work on their cars? Heck, the well known CALTY design center only has 11 people working there, why don't Toyota put more resources in CALTY to design more Lexus models?

They are making a yacht when their car line up is a mess so there is still hope Lexus will not mess up their sedans/coupes

 

[Rob_LexusTech]

stop making excuses for lexus? are you kidding me? "Toyota never tried enough to make Lexus distinctive from Toyota". thats funny. so, you are saying the LS460, for example, is no different than a camry? i assume you must have raced your Big Money Wasted 7 series against an LS, and lost or something.

 

[Yuan]

While I love Calty and everything they do, the LS400 was unquestionably the right design for that time. It looks boxy and dated now, but it was the peak of elegance in the 90s.

I know, but it is the ideology that digust me, the Japan executives are so afraid of breaking out of the cocoon. Too bad one Akio Toyoda isn't enough to revolutionize TMC.

 

[Yuan]

stop making excuses for lexus? are you kidding me? "Toyota never tried enough to make Lexus distinctive from Toyota". thats funny. so, you are saying the LS460, for example, is no different than a camry? i assume you must have raced your Big Money Wasted 7 series against an LS, and lost or something.

Oh god, comparing LS to Camry, you are exacly the problem with Lexus, can't take any criticism and only live in the fantasy. I wrote hundreds of words and you think I'm a troll? You must be smart. Please elaborate why is Lexus Canada exactly the same as Toyota Canada? Whereas Audi Canada has nothing to do VW Canada?

BTW wake up, LS460 was the last gen, we are moving on to LS500/H right now old fella

 

[ssun30]

Google is your best friend...

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/motoring/2017-08/14/content_30574421.htm

I live in Shanghai and visit a Lexus dealer every three months or so to chat with friends who work there. Well you can say I haven't seen young NX buyers with my own eyes. Then I may show a picture or two except it's rude to do so. But then you may say oh these people are not here for 'exciting SUVs'.

Whatever, a conversation cannot be continued when your sole purpose is refuting everything others say.

Goodness, did I just try to educate someone over the internet?

 

[Gecko]

Ok ladies and gentlemen - Moderator note: Let's omit the personal digs about who lives under bridges or what their age may be. There's a way to have this conversation constructively

 

[Gecko]

OP has some good points, and much of it has been covered here in other topics.

Bottom line: It's been hard to watch Mercedes, BMW and Audi come out with an onslaught of new products, trims, powertrains and technologies when Lexus seems to be moving too slowly to get out of their own way. At the end of the day, this is a business and the fact is that ToMoCo is much more conservative than the Germans, and it is reflected in their product - as Yuan notes.

Mercedes lineup has been damn near perfect and the only struggling model I can think of is the SLC/SLK.

Audi A3, Q3, R8 are all having a hard run right now. BMW is struggling with the 7 series, their flagship model. Cadillac, Infiniti and Acura are squarely in the rear view, but Cadillac has shown some surprising moves as of late.

Also, as much as it's a pain point, we cannot disregard the planning and strategy shift to TNGA. It delayed almost everything and resulted in some half-baked efforts like the LS, but I do believe we'll be in a wholly better place in the next 2 years.

For me, it comes down to this:

Mercedes really seems to take their marketing tagline to heart: "The best or nothing." That rings true throughout their lineup.

Lexus, on the other hand, seems content with "good enough." However, that has been the Toyota way for a very long time, so it's not surprising to me.

Vote with your wallet.

 

[krew]

Also, as much as it's a pain point, we cannot disregard the planning and strategy shift to TNGA. It delayed almost everything and resulted in some half-baked efforts like the LS, but I do believe we'll be in a wholly better place in the next 2 years.

I take exception to calling the LS "half-baked", as I would argue it was overbaked. Too much time in development builds up people's expectations and makes success difficult. Two years ago, Lexus could have used a detuned 5.0L V8 in the LS without too many people grumbling. The issues with infotainment wouldn't be so glaring.

I have to think that with so much organization change at Toyota over the past three years, things became very mixed up. I'm heartened by the introduction of CarPlay and Lexus trying something new with the subscription program. I also appreciate the mature design language of the LS & LC, even if the UX was unable to capture the same excitement.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I think the overall direction out of TMC is net positive. The bean counting Toyota of not so long ago would *never* have built the LC, and the introductions of the UX, Corolla, Camry, and 4Runner have all been largely positive, with the Camry being a genuine hit in the middle of a full-blown SUV craze. We're finally getting CarPlay after years of begging. And they finally realized that Scion was stupid.

Yes, there are many problems still remaining. We should've gotten the LS 2 years ago, and there should've been an LS F day one. We should have a real announcement of an LC F by now. We should have a better idea what's going on with the GS, GX, and LX. And if you need a ton of horsepower, let me direct you to basically anywhere else.

Too bad one Akio Toyoda isn't enough to revolutionize TMC.

I'd argue that he is, but that he's only one man. TNGA and Dynamic Force are already shown to be solid building blocks, they just have to get going and execute with them. We'll see in a few more years exactly how things go. Compare with how well GM's been turned around in a similar amount of time: only the Chevy division (and GMC) has the exact lineup they need, IMO.

 

[Yuan]

Google is your best friend...

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/motoring/2017-08/14/content_30574421.htm

I live in Shanghai and visit a Lexus dealer every three months or so to chat with friends who work there. Well you can say I haven't seen young NX buyers with my own eyes. Then I may show a picture or two except it's rude to do so. But then you may say oh these people are not here for 'exciting SUVs'.

Whatever, a conversation cannot be continued when your sole purpose is refuting everything others say.

Goodness, did I just try to educate someone over the internet?

Are you serious? Did you even read my comment? I already said 20 to 30 years old, and you bring up an article about the average buyer being 35, do you know how many are really 20-30 and how many are below 25? Trying to use some media news to tell what I see with my eyes is wrong, that is very kind.

Ok I exagerated, I don't seen MANY 20-30 years old buyers. However, do you really consider NX as an exciting SUV aside from the look? NX is not exciting to drive, period.

 

[RAL]

Second moderator note: Please lower the intensity of exchange ... this thread is not a debate. It is to be a civil exchange of opinions. Thanks!!!

 

[RAL]

Welcome new member @Airplane

 

[mikeavelli]

I used to get furious about it too but it does take time to keep the quality where it is. I am not talking about bad scores for infotainment. I am talking about Lexus continuing to be in the top ranks for reliability and quality. Unfortunately with their methods it simply takes time to bring a product to market. They are really methodical.

Yuan also the Germans have unsuccessful models, the media just doesn't seem to harp on them. We are in an age where BMW's are bashed many times for driving like a Camry but people still buy them. Some of us grew up in an era where Lexus was perceived inferior because it wasn't sporty. It just proves it comes down to the badge most times with people.

Also note Lexus doesn't have to go with a billion models since they have Toyota for volume. And when everyone told Lexus "you missed out on diesels" it seems their hybrid strategy is really working wonders long term.

I've slowly learned to accept Lexus and many other brands for who they are. Does it infuriate me sometimes? Yes. While I like the LS 500 F-Sport I don't love it. It needs a V-8 for me to fall head over heels closer to the 500hp range. I would love a RX F for the wife. The knob controller sometimes drives me nutty. Overall though I couldn't be happier as an owner and with some amazing relationships with Lexus. Truly amazing people there.

 

[Yuan]

I used to get furious about it too but it does take time to keep the quality where it is. I am not talking about bad scores for infotainment. I am talking about Lexus continuing to be in the top ranks for reliability and quality. Unfortunately with their methods it simply takes time to bring a product to market. They are really methodical.

Yuan also the Germans have unsuccessful models, the media just doesn't seem to harp on them. We are in an age where BMW's are bashed many times for driving like a Camry but people still buy them. Some of us grew up in an era where Lexus was perceived inferior because it wasn't sporty. It just proves it comes down to the badge most times with people.

Also note Lexus doesn't have to go with a billion models since they have Toyota for volume. And when everyone told Lexus "you missed out on diesels" it seems their hybrid strategy is really working wonders long term.

I've slowly learned to accept Lexus and many other brands for who they are. Does it infuriate me sometimes? Yes. While I like the LS 500 F-Sport I don't love it. It needs a V-8 for me to fall head over heels closer to the 500hp range. I would love a RX F for the wife. The knob controller sometimes drives me nutty. Overall though I couldn't be happier as an owner and with some amazing relationships with Lexus. Truly amazing people there.

BBA build up their sporty image through years of motorsport and exciting models, even if some of the newer models do not drive as well, at least they keep making exciting cars from the profit generated by their cookie cutters. I don't expect for a RXF or NXF and I don't care, high performance SUV is pretty pointless.

Example, BMW axed the 6 Series not to get rid of the segment but to replace it with the 8 Series, Lexus can do the same thing, reinvent the GS or rename it GC or something, but they choose to blame the model and the market shift toward SUVs.

If people only buy SUVs then why did LS500/H sales increased 86% in February? Lexus renewed the LS that's why, you can't expect people to buy your products if you don't update to the current. If Q50/60 can do well for Infiniti, then Lexus can have even more success if they renew their sedan line up.

I'm not hating on Lexus becaue their sedan line up is dated, I'm dissapointed that they don't even want to try. Why not just let CALTY design the next GS as a design study and debut as a concept?

 

[mikeavelli]

BBA build up their sporty image through years of motorsport and exciting models, even if some of the newer models do not drive as well, at least they keep making exciting cars from the profit generated by their cookie cutters. I don't expect for a RXF or NXF and I don't care, high performance SUV is pretty pointless.

The market obviously feels different. High Performance SUV's sell. Just yesterday, Maserati debuted a 580hp SUV and Jaguar a 550hp one.

If people only buy SUVs then why did LS500/H sales increased 86% in February? Lexus renewed the LS that's why, you can't expect people to buy your products if you don't update to the current. If Q50/60 can do well for Infiniti, then Lexus can have even more success if they renew their sedan line up.

Because the LS is brand spanking new so of course sales will go up. And not sure why you make it sound like the Q50/Q60 has any more of a success than the IS/RC when its not. The Q50 is their volume sedan, ala ES for Lexus. The IS amazingly was selling as good or better some months until recently. The RC sales had dropped as coupe sales always do after the first year. The Q60 is still relatively new in comparison and I'm sure is meant to sell in higher volume than the RC.

Lexus was an anomoly having the IS/ES/GS and let's not all forget that it worked for sometime. Today the 3 have blended in regards to size, sporty, luxury and SUV's are now dominating.

We replaced our GS F-SPort with a RX F-Sport and my wife couldn't be happier even as she loved the GS.

 

[Yuan]

The market obviously feels different. High Performance SUV's sell. Just yesterday, Maserati debuted a 580hp SUV and Jaguar a 550hp one.


Because the LS is brand spanking new so of course sales will go up. And not sure why you make it sound like the Q50/Q60 has any more of a success than the IS/RC when its not. The Q50 is their volume sedan, ala ES for Lexus. The IS amazingly was selling as good or better some months until recently. The RC sales had dropped as coupe sales always do after the first year. The Q60 is still relatively new in comparison and I'm sure is meant to sell in higher volume than the RC.

Lexus was an anomoly having the IS/ES/GS and let's not all forget that it worked for sometime. Today the 3 have blended in regards to size, sporty, luxury and SUV's are now dominating.

We replaced our GS F-SPort with a RX F-Sport and my wife couldn't be happier even as she loved the GS.

The market obviously feels different. High Performance SUV's sell. Just yesterday, Maserati debuted a 580hp SUV and Jaguar a 550hp one.


Because the LS is brand spanking new so of course sales will go up. And not sure why you make it sound like the Q50/Q60 has any more of a success than the IS/RC when its not. The Q50 is their volume sedan, ala ES for Lexus. The IS amazingly was selling as good or better some months until recently. The RC sales had dropped as coupe sales always do after the first year. The Q60 is still relatively new in comparison and I'm sure is meant to sell in higher volume than the RC.

Lexus was an anomoly having the IS/ES/GS and let's not all forget that it worked for sometime. Today the 3 have blended in regards to size, sporty, luxury and SUV's are now dominating.

We replaced our GS F-SPort with a RX F-Sport and my wife couldn't be happier even as she loved the GS.

I'm sorry what?
Infiniti sold 3904 Q50s, 855 Q60s and 450 Q70s, 5209 combined for 3 models
Lexus sold 1524 IS, 186 RC, 2685 ES and 534 GS, 4924 combined for 4 models
LS and LC shouldn't count because Infiniti don't have anything in the segments.

and you said Q50/60 is not a success? Can't you see the factual proof

FYI Q50 compete with IS, Q60 with RC and Infiniti don't have a direct ES competitor.
How can Infiniti sell more sedans and coupes in the same segment than Lexus? Because they try.

Please, why did your wife change the GS to RX? Because she doesn't care about driving and don't even pretend that RX drive any good, it doesn't.
Just because you guys don't like sedans anymore doesn't mean Lexus shouldn't improve the sedan lineup, there needs to be a balance and you guys keep making excuses for Lexus.

How the engineers work overtime, well engineering is a hard job, and Lexus have all the resources to hire more engineers.
How SUVs are dominating, yet their mainstream SUV lineup is boring and bland as always, it dissapoint me that they look so good while the mechanical does not relfect the exterior.
SUVs are dominating, ok then start making the current RX and NX just a bit more powerful and better handling, just slightly to show they mean what they say "Stop bring boring", rather than just spending three year to come up with a RXL just stretched in the overhang area. Why didn't they introduce the refresh RX at the same time? Do they have another excuse for that?

Models get old and sales drop, I get it, but that is not my point, Lexus have to commit to what they want to achieve. If they just want profit, then axe the GS, or the whole sedan line up for all I care, but you need to understand people like me that loved Lexus because of the ISF and LFA, now seeing Lexus axing the GS is sad.

To me, I lost my hopes because I don't see the commitment from Lexus to really become the "experience amzing" brand and revolutionize their sedans for those who care and love to drive for pleasure (sedans and coupe will always drive better than SUVs). I can see that Infiniti is committed to follow the SUV trend but still making their sedans interesting at the same time. Look at Genesis, they tried hard to do both as well and don't tell me Genesis is small so they need to try hard, well BMW and Mercedes are still making interesting sedans/coupes along with the SUVs

 

[mikeavelli]

I'm sorry what?
Infiniti sold 3904 Q50s, 855 Q60s and 450 Q70s, 5209 combined for 3 models
Lexus sold 1524 IS, 186 RC, 2685 ES and 534 GS, 4924 combined for 4 models
LS and LC shouldn't count because Infiniti don't have anything in the segments.

and you said Q50/60 is not a success? Can't you see the factual proof

FYI Q50 compete with IS, Q60 with RC and Infiniti don't have a direct ES competitor.
How can Infiniti sell more sedans and coupes in the same segment than Lexus? Because they try.

Nowhere did I say the Q50/Q60 wasn't a success. They are a success. You are talking to the guy who's company bought the first Q50 in the USA.

I
Please, why did your wife change the GS to RX? Because she doesn't care about driving and don't even pretend that RX drive any good, it doesn't.
Just because you guys don't like sedans anymore doesn't mean Lexus shouldn't improve the sedan lineup, there needs to be a balance and you guys keep making excuses for Lexus.

I am tempted to ban you for insulting my wife and our buying decision. You made some serious accusations without asking why. I'm not even going to respond to this insult.

As a matter of fact I'm going to now pour a glass of Whisky, text KREW and talk this over now. You are out of line.