Lexus LFR/LFA II Megathread
- Thread starter Will1991
- Start date
Gecko
Administrator
- Messages
- 5,043
- Reactions
- 12,291
LS F and LC F were ready for launch together, and both killed late term.
Gecko
Administrator
- Messages
- 5,043
- Reactions
- 12,291
Off the top of my head...
2018-2019 rumors of LC F, LS F, and 2nd gen IS F were probably rooted in truth. We saw late stage LC F test vehicles on the road, the prototype car was shown to some people, and it was co-developed with the LS F. Now owning IS 500 and RC F, it's easy for me to see that IS 500 could have been an IS F with 15% more effort and any level of commitment.
5th generation GS was killed at some point though I'm not sure how late into development. There were even comments from GR at one point about being engaged to develop the driving characteristics of the 5th gen GS.
With the buyer shift to crossovers, the LF-1 Limitless was a targeted exercise to determine "What would it look like to apply the LS formula to a CUV?" with production intention... but it was killed late stage and referred to as the "influence" for the LF-Z (2021) and then later RZ (2023) to save face with dealers who wanted the LF-1 in their showrooms so badly.
It feels like 2018-2020 was when the internal decision was made to defund Lexus and pull LC F, LS F, IS F, GS, and LF-1 in favor of platform engineered products like TX and RZ. With the accelerated shift to CUVs/SUVs, I can't blame them for turning away from the GS and maybe pulling the IS F, but the worst part is pulling all of the flagship product - even the LF-1 - as well. Unforgivable.
I do believe that Lexus USA wanted a more expansive F lineup as well as a more ambitious racing program. I recall them saying they eventually want to do Le Mans with a LMDh entry. It's now very clear Toyota will NOT greenlight such a program and the entire F division is being dismantled and completely taken over by GR.
The better question would be: is F division dismantled because of intentional sabotage or are they just incompetent. They didn't really have a good track record since 2014. The gen 1 IS F was very promising. Over its life cycle it improved from a terribly tuned muscle car to matching the E92 M3 on track. But the RC F and GS F were very underwhelmign at launch. The RC F TE was especially a big let down after the very ambitious RC F GT concept. And there's the LC F which honestly didn't sound very competitive with its rumored specs: ~1900kg and 600PS, that sounds like a lot of power but the power-to-weight ratio is barely higher than the Supra. I know at this point Lexus enthusiasts will take anything, but the LC F would probably see the same fate as the RC F and GS F: heavily criticized for its weight and underpowered (relatively) engine, and it would lose every drag race because it's RWD, then 10 years later media will write about how underrated it was and how good it holds its value.
The better question would be: is F division dismantled because of intentional sabotage or are they just incompetent. They didn't really have a good track record since 2014. The gen 1 IS F was very promising. Over its life cycle it improved from a terribly tuned muscle car to matching the E92 M3 on track. But the RC F and GS F were very underwhelmign at launch. The RC F TE was especially a big let down after the very ambitious RC F GT concept. And there's the LC F which honestly didn't sound very competitive with its rumored specs: ~1900kg and 600PS, that sounds like a lot of power but the power-to-weight ratio is barely higher than the Supra. I know at this point Lexus enthusiasts will take anything, but the LC F would probably see the same fate as the RC F and GS F: heavily criticized for its weight and underpowered (relatively) engine, and it would lose every drag race because it's RWD, then 10 years later media will write about how underrated it was and how good it holds its value.
This was also when they found the cheat code to easy money. The LM is probably the most profitable car in the world with 200-500% margin depending on the market. It's not very high volume but TMC probably makes more profit from this one product than their entire RWD lineup combined. What's even worse is that the wave of Chinese ultra-luxury minivans did not have the anticipated impact on its sales so Lexus will remain convinced that whatever decision they make is correct. It's also baffling that how slow their traditional luxury competitors have responded. MB now has the Vision V concept but unfortunately they butchered the design like they always did in the past 5 years, so LM's dominance will likely persist.
I still believe the 2nd gen IS F was a mis-prediction by BestCar. They insisted on its existence even after the IS500 launched in US. It has always been the IS500 only. I recall Lexus was planning on offering an upgrade package with a transmission oil cooler and better brake pads to make the IS500 more track-worthy, but I don't think it's never intended to do full track days like the RC F can. For some reason that package is also cancelled.
Last edited:
Deliberate sabotage. They said there’s no place for the GS because of the ES - but now they’re making the ES bigger and killing their core product that defined the brand? Actually, now that I think about it, it’s both incompetence and intentional sabotage. There’s just no way a company that tries to build upon their performance brand would suddenly scrap all of it and still feel complacent about their "work." That’s pure idiocy.
Ian Schmidt
Moderator
- Messages
- 2,395
- Reactions
- 4,220
Yeah. You could more or less make the case for getting rid of the GS if there had been a genuinely sporty version of the ES, but that didn't happen. And now that the ES is apparently going to be the only Lexus sedan, it's clear they're just gutting anything that isn't high volume. Dealers will like the money coming in initially, but the smart ones have already realized they're being Scion-ized.
Gecko
Administrator
- Messages
- 5,043
- Reactions
- 12,291
I think Toyota will begin to utilize Lexus dealers as a premium retail channel for all products, not just for Lexus. The rumors of Century being sold through Lexus dealerships was surprising and I could even see Crown being sold there as well long term... and potentially even high end GR products like the GR GT3. If Toyota devalues Lexus as a brand and seeks to elevate Crown, Century and GR, Lexus is at least an existing retail channel for premium products.... and they'll have to find some way to appease dealers who are watching Lexus fall apart before their eyes.
CRSKTN
Expert
- Messages
- 2,297
- Reactions
- 3,782
People have always said stuff like this and it's never made any f******* sense.
No, you couldn't really make the case sitting at a giant company like that unless you're a f******* boring stupid loser like the people who run Toyota.
You're the biggest car company in the f******* world, you can justify having more than 1 or 2 sedans across your entire god damned luxury car line-up.
Look at any other car manufacturer, even smaller ones invest in more models than Toyota did for Lexus.
Look how many shitty mass market one off niche vehicles they have.
No, I say you couldn't make that argument. It's just letting Toyota off the hook for being a bunch of contemptuous, arrogant, fanny pack and socks-and-sandles should've-been-bullied-to-death-before-adulthood dorks.
This logic doesn't explain the cancellation of LF-1. There is clearly a market for on-road focused full-size SUVs. These have basically replaced the role of traditional luxury sedans. Lexus never had a product for this segment and they lag behind even Infiniti in sales. Just in the US market alone MB sold almost 40k GLS+G, close to 30k BMW X7, over 20k Porsche Cayenne. There is no way Lexus cannot justify the LF-1 alongside the LX. The LF-1 high performance version could even take advantage of the XM flopping and establish itself as a strong value option below the Cayenne turbo. There is even enough room for a LWB chauffeur focused model (replacing the heavily compromised LX VIP), which also serves as the basis for a true Century SUV.
We all heard about the weight argument for LF-1 cancellation from BestCar, but we'll never know the true reason. That argument is very weak considering the rumored specs for LF-1 isn't even that heavy (2400kg for V6 and 2500kg for V8).
Ian Schmidt
Moderator
- Messages
- 2,395
- Reactions
- 4,220
Nothing explains the LF-1 cancellation. It doesn't seem to be an Akio thing since it didn't just ship as a Toyota, and it would've been an obvious sales winner in addition to the potential flexibility with LWB and a high-performance version.
No, they made the "genius" decision to make a fully electric Land Cruiser based on it.
They cancelled all the products that have clear demand and decided to go for a product segment that has been proven again and again to have no market demand.
Gor134
Expert
- Messages
- 1,049
- Reactions
- 1,872
I'm not convinced that electric Land Cruiser is going to actually share much with the existing GA-L platform
CRSKTN
Expert
- Messages
- 2,297
- Reactions
- 3,782
If the idea originated as a Lexus he would be against it. If Lexus USA was asking for it hard, he would deny it just to spite them, after leading them on.
He'd have to go through the whole market opportunity analysis again for the same vehicle under Toyota, design competition, etc.
Kelvin2020
Admirer
- Messages
- 762
- Reactions
- 1,698
Given the current situation, it’s hard not to feel that Lexus is quite unfortunate to be under Toyota. Without the constant restrictions and interference from its parent company, Lexus could have developed into something far greater. It once had the potential and creativity to stand toe to toe with other luxury brands , but that promise has been steadily diminished under Toyota’s shadow. I truly hope Lexus could one day separate and operate independently free from Toyota’s dominance, even though I know such a future is unlikely to ever come true…..
Gor134
Expert
- Messages
- 1,049
- Reactions
- 1,872
First production-spec sighting of LFR/GR GT on US roads here in CA credit to @carsandchris on IG.
Kelvin2020
Admirer
- Messages
- 762
- Reactions
- 1,698
