How much will you be willing to give up to own a hydrogen ICE car?

ssun30

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I was taken by surprise when Toyota was seriously considering hydrogen ICEs as a future powertrain option for production cars. I previously considered the GR Corolla H2 program as an engineering exercise but apparently real engineers at Toyota know more than I do (/s). Now there are rumors that next-gen Prius and Corolla will offer H2 options in Japan. And in their latest news release they claimed to have reached power parity with gasoline ICEs (quick refresher: H2 combustion produces a lot of NOx emissions and two ways to avoid that is 1) ultra-lean burn and losing ~50% specific output 2) use AdBlue additive like diesel engines). They improved filling time from 5 min to 3 min. That's only a minor inconvenience compared to filling a gasoline car if you take into account extra time you spend at a gas station (usually 5 min). You need to understand that a widely-accessible very-fast charging (i.e. < 30min) network for BEVs is very unlikely to become a reality because of the economics (10-min fast charging WILL come, but you will have to pay a premium to skip the line).

Regardless, due to fundamental differences between ICE and FC, a hydrogen ICE car will:
1) mostly replicate the driving experience of a gasoline ICEV.
2) offer less than half the power of FCV/BEV of the same size. You will always be trashed by an EV at the lights/on a drag strip.
3) have ~40% less range/70% higher fuel cost than a FCV with same hydrogen capacity.
4) ~100kg heavier than comparable gasoline ICEV.
5) can use inefficient layouts (e.g. TTV8 or even V10/V12, manual trans etc.) but still close to zero emissions.
6) in short-term H2 price will still be at least 2-3x gasoline/diesel.

Are these things you would consider to be worth it to still drive an ICEV guilt-free? Do you think enough people will be interested for this type of powertrain to be feasible?
 
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bogglo

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I was taken by surprise when Toyota was seriously considering hydrogen ICEs as a future powertrain option for production cars. I previously considered the GR Corolla H2 program as an engineering exercise but apparently real engineers at Toyota know more than I do (/s). Now there are rumors that next-gen Prius and Corolla will offer H2 options in Japan. And in their latest news release they claimed to have reached power parity with gasoline ICEs (quick refresher: H2 combustion produces a lot of NOx emissions and two ways to avoid that is 1) ultra-lean burn and losing ~50% specific output 2) use AdBlue additive like diesel engines). They improved filling time from 5 min to 3 min. That's only a minor inconvenience compared to filling a gasoline car if you take into account extra time you spend at a gas station (usually 5 min). You need to understand that a widely-accessible very-fast charging (i.e. < 30min) network for BEVs is very unlikely to become a reality because of the economics (10-min fast charging WILL come, but you will have to pay a premium to skip the line).

Regardless, due to fundamental differences between ICE and FC, a hydrogen ICE car will:
1) mostly replicate the driving experience of a gasoline ICEV.
2) offer less than half the power of FCV/BEV of the same size. You will always be trashed by an EV at the lights/on a drag strip.
3) have ~40% less range/70% higher fuel cost than a FCV with same hydrogen capacity.
4) ~100kg heavier than comparable gasoline ICEV.
5) can use inefficient layouts (e.g. TTV8 or even V10/V12, manual trans etc.) but still close to zero emissions.
6) in short-term H2 price will still be at least 2-3x gasoline/diesel.

Are these things you would consider to be worth it to still drive an ICEV guilt-free? Do you think enough people will be interested for this type of powertrain to be feasible?
If released it will be considered because it's the new system in town. The only problem I see is, If toyota is the one debuting the system first it will be tuned for the everyday drivers who just want a prius or corolla that's not a bad thing. However to make a statement they need the first variants to be an enthusiast car. As for the effeciency, I'm sure they will work it out I know you are a knowledgeable guy, but toyota engineers have access to both the theory and practical data for the program to solve the problem you listed
 

ssun30

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If released it will be considered because it's the new system in town. The only problem I see is, If toyota is the one debuting the system first it will be tuned for the everyday drivers who just want a prius or corolla that's not a bad thing. However to make a statement they need the first variants to be an enthusiast car. As for the effeciency, I'm sure they will work it out I know you are a knowledgeable guy, but toyota engineers have access to both the theory and practical data for the program to solve the problem you listed
The range/efficiency/power density problems are physics and cannot be solved by engineering ingenuity. The hydrogen FC has 67% thermal efficiency even in its first generation and that's higher than the most efficient heat engine ever made. And the specific power of FC and motors in 2nd generation are already higher than even turbine engines. Combustion is just a very inefficient way to make power.

They may some day improve the H2 ICE from 40% to 50% efficiency, but that's still far away from 67%. The G16E-GTS is a very high density ICE with 1.8kW/kg. The FC stack is 5.4kW/kg and the drive motor is 3.3kW/kg not to mention their future in-wheel motors will reach over 10kW/kg. The biggest bottleneck in Mirai's drive system is actually the battery.
 

Will1991

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In the short term we should see a lot of H2 powered ICE's on heavy dutty applications:

  • MAN power generation
1920_manengines-hydrogenblending-e3262.jpg

  • MAN Trucks
6a00d8341c4fbe53ef026bde9d117d200c-800wi


  • Scania
Scania is cooperating with WestPort to apply HDPI on a H2 engine.

  • Cummins
Cummins is also pursuing the same tech:

There's a lot of money going into H2 ICE's... I would prefer an FCV, but there will be H2 engines...
 

Levi

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it is not about what is better. it is about how we can make our society work. if everything could be BEV it would be best, it simply is not possible for the foreseeable future. betting on only one thing is always a bad strategy. gladly Toyota is all the opposite of this.

the most important thing for me, and I think for most intelligent people, and those that experienced interruptions of any kind, is that reliable energy is available locally, and has the lowest downtime possible. reliable mobility is the most important thing, regardless the means, the cleaner, the better.