Motor Trend Comparison: Lexus ES 350 vs. Acura TLX vs. Infiniti Q50 vs. Lincoln MKZ vs. Buick Lacrosse

mediumhot

Run of the mill Porsches are way overrated. Are they cool cars to own? Yes. Are they cool cars to drive? Yes. Are they anything more special in driving experience than other small sports cars? Not really. To this day original Boxster remains the crappiest two seater I've ever driven.

If I went by the gushing media articles alone, I'd say that opinion is nuts. By my brief, limited personal experience, I totally see your point and even tend to agree.

For the past 4 or 5 years, I've been a member of SAMA (Southern Automotive Media Association) and, as such, I've been one of the judges of their Topless in Miami event. This is, basically, a day-long drive-and-compare event of whatever convertible and sunroof vehicles the carmakers deign to bring down. In its 2017 iteration, the "High Performance" category consisted of the Porsche 718 Boxster S versus the Jaguar F-Type SVR. It was a no-contest blowout win by the Jaguar, which also got the overall "Convertible of the Year" title. I remember being totally disappointed and underwhelmed by the Boxster, especially its engine sound, which sounded way more like an old, rear-engined VW Beetle with an EMPI aftermarket exhaust (the 60s equivalent of today's Honda Civics with fart can/coffee can aftermarket exhausts) than anything worthy of its price tag. Hopefully, the older, flat-6 Boxsters are more worthy of the hoopla, but the flat-4 718 was a huge disappointment.

mediumhot

I'm not sure why people expect from ES to be anything more than ES that has always been. Sure all those GS replacements cancelation rumors have put the new ES in a though spot but it's still your grandpa's favorite land yacht.

Definitely agreed! I'm not sure why people expect so much from the ES either. There is so much rumors floating around, especially on CL (secret CL forum reader here), that the ES will have AWD or a new more powerful turbo or V6 engine. It feels like quite a bit of people are predicting a ES F-Sport with AWD and Turbo/high-powered V6.

I feel like majority of this hope or expectation comes from the GS axing rumors. I have seen comments expecting an ES-F, which is insane - no one will probably buy that. (Enthuisasts will welcome it but ignore it. And core demographics wouldn't get near it) But its too hopeful and optimistic to think the ES will get all these upgrades in order to be a replacement for the GS/GS-F. Like you said - the ES will still be that typical land yacht that the older generations love. They need to make it that way to cater to their mass core demographics of buyers; if they didn't, sales would drop.

Driving the All-New 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

A change in the formula.

View the original article post

Great review. Can you talk about the new Lane Tracing Assist(LTA)? How it compares vs propilot, autopilot, etc?

Sakura

Like you said - the ES will still be that typical land yacht that the older generations love.

I dont get which review out of 500 posted, including one by @krew, made you think that ES is still a boat.

I have read and viewed at least 50 reviews, probably more, and I have yet to see a single one that says that ES handles like old generation, like a boat.

krew

I don't want to hype up the ES F SPORT as this grand performance car, but it's serviceable when looking for an engaging drive -- I think most people on this site will be pleasantly surprised by its ability. And as the person that started Lexus Enthusiast, I would buy an ES F SPORT in a second. :D

......

I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.

reposado

Great review. Can you talk about the new Lane Tracing Assist(LTA)? How it compares vs propilot, autopilot, etc?

Welcome to Lexus Enthusiast, reposado!

LTA isn't a full on self-driving system, it's comparable to Nissan's ProPilot where it will simply attempt to stay in one lane (including around curves and stuff, of course). If I understand correctly it's a bit more robust than the Nissan system in that it can follow a car ahead of you in cases where the road markings are unreadable or unclear but it's otherwise similar.

Welcome aboard! @reposado

Ian Schmidt

I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.

If you read older ES review, it was certainly almost always called boaty... which new one is not.

Actually, I am pretty sure new ES, especially F-Sport will easily handle better than my 2009 IS... but hey, I am driving ethusiasts RWD while ES drivers are driving a boat :)

I like driving the boat. XV40 best boat.

I used to only desire the F-Sports for the aggressive looking front fascia but now that the non-F-sports looking just as aggressive with the LS and the ES but mixed with some of that Lexus elegance, I actually prefer those more and of course the luxury interiors are lightyears ahead of the F-Sport no option interiors.

Just out of curiosity what can you not get on an F-sport other than leather and wood trim? I was leaning towards the luxury package on a regular ES but the circuit red in the F-sport is growing on me. I’m now curious about the draw backs of the sport package compared to the luxury/ultra luxury package.

spwolf

I dont get which review out of 500 posted, including one by @krew, made you think that ES is still a boat.

I have read and viewed at least 50 reviews, probably more, and I have yet to see a single one that says that ES handles like old generation, like a boat.
......

Ian Schmidt

I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.

Thanks Ian! That is exactly what I meant. I didn't mean it in a "handling" sense. It was just merely a slang for it being a big - comfy car. I didn't say it handles like a land yacht - I just said it was a land yacht. Lol.

Besides - I do agree. The 2018 Toyota Camry XSE and the 2019 Lexus ES handles better than their predecessors did. But that doesn't mean its some handling-king that you put on the mountain roads.

lsu5508

Just out of curiosity what can you not get on an F-sport other than leather and wood trim? I was leaning towards the luxury package on a regular ES but the circuit red in the F-sport is growing on me. I’m now curious about the draw backs of the sport package compared to the luxury/ultra luxury package.

If you opt for the F-Sport, you will only be able to equip the Premium Pack only. You'll be missing on the features given to you by the Luxury Pack and Ultra Luxury Pack because you can't option those.

Its really a decision of - do you want more luxury or more sportiness? For me - I would pick the luxury route. The Lexus ES is not a sports car by any means - so its just more wise, in my opinion, to option the luxury route. Why should I sacrifice the amazing luxury features on a Lexus ES in order to get a Lexus ES F-Sport that isn't even a remotely "sporty".

Sakura

Besides - I do agree. The 2018 Toyota Camry XSE and the 2019 Lexus ES handles better than their predecessors did. But that doesn't mean its some handling-king that you put on the mountain roads.

yeah, so what does that mean?

Re-read krew's review, forget your own preconceived notions about ES, it handles well vs competition, including A6, etc. As I said before, It likely handles way better than my own IS, which is supposedly sporty RWD sedan.

TNGA IS should be fun though :)

Ian Schmidt

TNGA IS should be fun though :)

yeah, problem with old platform was that there is choice they had to make - sport/hard or comfy/boat... with TNGA it does not have to be that black and white, and it is quite cool that Toyota has managed to do that and not VW for instance, that has done platform sharing forever and all of their new vehicles are having this old Toyota problem of comfy vs sport.

Sakura

Other than leather and wood trim with ambiant lighting I'm not seeing much else you cant option from the luxury and ultra luxury package to the F-sport. Am i missing something? I know those are pretty big pieces but just making sure i understand the limitations.

I really want the more aggressive styling as i really hate the basic grill on the base model ES.

lsu5508

Other than leather and wood trim with ambiant lighting I'm not seeing much else you cant option from the luxury and ultra luxury package to the F-sport. Am i missing something? I know those are pretty big pieces but just making sure i understand the limitations.

I really want the more aggressive styling as i really hate the basic grill on the base model ES.

Looks like Power Trunk open/close and Power Rear Sunshade are the most significant differences between Ultra Luxury & F SPORT, also F SPORT is only available with NuLuxe rather than leather. I wonder if F SPORT will have the ML sound system as an option?

I thought you had both of those listed as optional additions in your technical review..

lsu5508

I thought you had both of those listed as optional additions in your technical review..

And so I did! However, it's difficult to say just which of the stand-alone options Lexus will offer on the F SPORT.

spwolf

yeah, so what does that mean?

Re-read krew's review, forget your own preconceived notions about ES, it handles well vs competition, including A6, etc. As I said before, It likely handles way better than my own IS, which is supposedly sporty RWD sedan.

It means what it literally means.
I mean: it handles better than its predecessors but its not something you would take to the mountains and push it to the edge.

I believe there is nothing wrong with my statement. It obviously better than before but its obviously not better than say a Civic Type R or STi is where I'm getting at. Hence - I said, "handling-king". Obviously the Lexus ES wasn't built for that and there is nothing wrong with that. The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

Within the competition? If you included the A6, does that mean you are stating the 2019 Lexus ES's handling is also on par with the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class? I can't speak on behalf an A6 because I never drove one. But I highly doubt a FWD Lexus ES handles better than the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class.

The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.

lsu5508

Sakura

Other than leather and wood trim with ambiant lighting I'm not seeing much else you cant option from the luxury and ultra luxury package to the F-sport. Am i missing something? I know those are pretty big pieces but just making sure i understand the limitations.

I really want the more aggressive styling as i really hate the basic grill on the base model ES.

Like Krew said, Power Trunk, Power Shade, and Leather seems to be the biggest difference we know so far. I think we might have to wait for the actual build simulation to figure out what's really missing. I'm expecting quite a bit. The 3G 2014 Lexus IS F-Sport was missing quite a bit of features compared to its non F-Sport counter-part. I'll bet that later into the model years - the Lexus ES F-Sport might offer more luxurious features.

Sakura

I believe there is nothing wrong with my statement. It obviously better than before but its obviously not better than say a Civic Type R or STi is where I'm getting at. Hence - I said, "handling-king". Obviously the Lexus ES wasn't built for that and there is nothing wrong with that. The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

Within the competition? If you included the A6, does that mean you are stating the 2019 Lexus ES's handling is also on par with the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class? I can't speak on behalf an A6 because I never drove one. But I highly doubt a FWD Lexus ES handles better than the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class.

The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.

I have forgoten how to call this marketing technique, but what I see is that it is used deceptively by lumping all German brands under the category of "good handling", when the truth is that only BMW and Porsche are the real ones that handle well, and that BMW has a recent past of cars not handling that well (see BMW Forum), and that only recently has Mercedes improved their handling, and that Audis have never really been and are not yet a well handling cars, and that the VW Golf is not a remarkably well handling car.

But what you say basically confirms that good handling is not just a matter of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD.

The worst handling car I ever drove was a Toyota Hiace mk4 (Grand Hiace or Gravia), it was RWD.

In general, unless it is a tiny budget car, there are no modern cars that handle badly, all handle well and are capable of illegal maneuvers before the driver's abilities are put to test. Imagine a film scene in real life, a basic 5 Series (that is not M5) will not have an edge over a Camry adequately powered, it will all be about the driver. It just happens a more daring driver will be behind the wheel of the BMW, but the BMW has nothing to do, it is image.

Sakura

The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.

Those are valid criticisms of the older versions of Lexus' 2IS. We should note, however, that the numerous suspension, steering and VDIM tweaks and improvements made for the 2011 2IS made a world of difference. A friend had a 2006 IS 350 with the Sport package, and after I got my 2011 IS 350 F Sport tried them back-to-back. It was an eye-opener, and yet another example of Lexus kaizen, or continuous improvement.

Ok, now back to ES...

Levi

But what you say basically confirms that good handling is not just a matter of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD.

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Like every other "amazing" FWD.

Sakura

Like Krew said, Power Trunk, Power Shade, and Leather seems to be the biggest difference we know so far. I think we might have to wait for the actual build simulation to figure out what's really missing. I'm expecting quite a bit. The 3G 2014 Lexus IS F-Sport was missing quite a bit of features compared to its non F-Sport counter-part. I'll bet that later into the model years - the Lexus ES F-Sport might offer more luxurious features.

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

lsu5508

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

I do not believe dealerships get "demo" cars before official production arrival. The online build simulation will be available before the vehicle hits dealers though.

If you are pre-ordering or ordering a car from the dealer, you'll be given a list of options that you are able to select from. That shouldn't be a problem.

spwolf

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

Hold up. Take a step back - I get it, you like the Lexus ES. But I didn't say Audi and VW can handle better than the Lexus ES. You are putting words in my mouth for this bit.

Also - where did I say the Lexus ES can't handle well? I clearly stated the 2019 Lexus ES handles well and better than the predecessors.
What I said:

The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

What I'm trying to say as well is: while the Lexus ES handles better, its still not a good handling FWD car like the Civic Type R. What I said was: The 2019 Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

The Volvo S90/V90 competes against the three German. It has up to more than 400 PS from its transverse 2.0l I4. Audi A4 is probably going FWD next generation. I would not be surprised if too in a generation. With AWD now the standard, bar a for a few enthusiasts, and most flagships going electric, there is little incentive for RWD. Heavy car, no manual, RWD is not worthy.

Sakura

Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

No, those arguments do not hold.

1. For car to handle well it does not have to handle as well as Type R. None of the competition handles like Type R. Using some crazy FWD hatch is just an easy way to disqualify ES. Does A6 2.0tdi handle like Type R?
2. I dont care what is on paper, and it is not even on paper since all the mags said that handling is fine. This "paper" is only in your head because of your preconceived opinions of ES.
3. Why would Lexus ES only compete vs Buick and Acura TLX? Those cars do not exist in Europe or China or Japan. All European mags said it competes vs 5/E/A6, and all the reviews are quite favorable with handling being fine, suspension being fine, and interior praised for quality and construction, all vs competition which is A6/5/E.
4. And it is their competition. This is what people will compare it to, even in the US. And of course in the rest of the world, those competition you mention does not exist. When they walk to the Lexus dealership, they will certainly compare it to those cars, no matter where in the world they are.

Yes, you are biased against Lexus ES, despite all the reviews telling you not to be. I am not sure what does that have to do with being Toyota shareholder, at the time I worked for Toyota, we invested millions into it, and does not make me more qualified than other drivers/buyers of the brand.

I cant wait for you to try out ES and let us know your opinion. I am sure Krew also had preconceived opinions of what ES is.