Lexus LF-1 Production Crossover to Debut in 2020?

Gecko

The people who buy LXs like the rugged, trucky, solid feeling that is provided by the BOF architecture. Keep in mind the average OTD price of an LX is around $100k, so that buyer has already passed up almost every other SUV in the market short of ultra lux and exotic brands... They know what they want.

This is a great point. If lux-SUV buyers base their purchase decisions purely on comfort, handling, or speed, then the LX should have no chance since it does a lot of things worse than cheaper unibody competitors. I guess my 'anti-LX' mentality is because of my inability to comprehend the thought process of LX buyers. Also the exorbitant price they charge for the LX570 in China didn't help my perceptions of it: the base trim is ¥100k ($15k) more expensive than a LS500h Executive or LC500h Structural Blue Limited Edition.

Here's an interesting perspective from my dealership friend on the ridiculous profitability of the LX570. Here in China a lot of the LX570 buyers actually cross-shop the truck with the LS600hL. Strange. These people have already determined that they don't want a RR or GLS, nor a S-Class or 7-Series. These are the top elite customers of the shop, and are willing to pay a big premium for the best they can offer. The LS600hL was very short on supply towards the end of production so LX570 was the only flagship that could be delivered regularly. While the official MSRP of the LX570 is ¥1.4M (USD 230k), the actual OTD price is usually north of ¥1.8M (USD 285k) and some are willing to go over 2M. Even at that price point it is still cheaper than the LS600hL, or a GLS500, or a X5 XDrive 50i though these people really don't care. They buy the LX because it is unique, and is the best Lexus there is. It stays true today: Lexus dealers already need to offer deals on the LS500h to sell them, while the LX still carries a mark-up (although at a more reasonable scale now).

So selling one LX570 here is equivalent to selling fifty super low margin ES200s, and salespeople get a hefty commission for the job. I find the LX very comparable to the Toyota Alphard, which too has ridiculous profitability due to uniqueness. Competitors could never convince the top executives to sit in their luxury minivans. These people don't want cargo haulers with fancy leather chairs; they want a purpose-built VIP transport with a silky-smooth V6 and luxury car suspension.

So in the end, the LX is for those who know exactly what they want. The LF-1 is for the more numerous generic luxury buyers.

Gecko

The people who buy LXs like the rugged, trucky, solid feeling that is provided by the BOF architecture. Keep in mind the average OTD price of an LX is around $100k, so that buyer has already passed up almost every other SUV in the market short of ultra lux and exotic brands... They know what they want.

This is a great point. If lux-SUV buyers base their purchase decisions purely on comfort, handling, or speed, then the LX should have no chance since it does a lot of things worse than cheaper unibody competitors. I guess my 'anti-LX' mentality is because of my inability to comprehend the thought process of LX buyers. Also the exorbitant price they charge for the LX570 in China didn't help my perceptions of it: the base trim is ¥100k ($15k) more expensive than a LS500h Executive or LC500h Structural Blue Limited Edition.

Here's an interesting perspective from my dealership friend on the ridiculous profitability of the LX570. Here in China a lot of the LX570 buyers actually cross-shop the truck with the LS600hL. Strange. These people have already determined that they don't want a RR or GLS, nor a S-Class or 7-Series. These are the top elite customers of the shop, and are willing to pay a big premium for the best they can offer. The LS600hL was very short on supply towards the end of production so LX570 was the only flagship that could be delivered regularly. While the official MSRP of the LX570 is ¥1.4M (USD 230k), the actual OTD price is usually north of ¥1.8M (USD 285k) and some are willing to go over 2M. Even at that price point it is still cheaper than the LS600hL, or a GLS500, or a X5 XDrive 50i though these people really don't care. They buy the LX because it is unique, and is the best Lexus there is. It stays true today: Lexus dealers already need to offer deals on the LS500h to sell them, while the LX still carries a mark-up (although at a more reasonable scale now).

So selling one LX570 here is equivalent to selling fifty super low margin ES200s, and salespeople get a hefty commission for the job. I find the LX very comparable to the Toyota Alphard, which too has ridiculous profitability due to uniqueness. Competitors could never convince the top executives to sit in their luxury minivans. These people don't want cargo haulers with fancy leather chairs; they want a purpose-built VIP transport with a silky-smooth V6 and luxury car suspension.

So in the end, the LX is for those who know exactly what they want. The LF-1 is for the more numerous generic luxury buyers.

Gecko

The people who buy LXs like the rugged, trucky, solid feeling that is provided by the BOF architecture. Keep in mind the average OTD price of an LX is around $100k, so that buyer has already passed up almost every other SUV in the market short of ultra lux and exotic brands... They know what they want.

This is a great point. If lux-SUV buyers base their purchase decisions purely on comfort, handling, or speed, then the LX should have no chance since it does a lot of things worse than cheaper unibody competitors. I guess my 'anti-LX' mentality is because of my inability to comprehend the thought process of LX buyers. Also the exorbitant price they charge for the LX570 in China didn't help my perceptions of it: the base trim is ¥100k ($15k) more expensive than a LS500h Executive or LC500h Structural Blue Limited Edition.

Here's an interesting perspective from my dealership friend on the ridiculous profitability of the LX570. Here in China a lot of the LX570 buyers actually cross-shop the truck with the LS600hL. Strange. These people have already determined that they don't want a RR or GLS, nor a S-Class or 7-Series. These are the top elite customers of the shop, and are willing to pay a big premium for the best they can offer. The LS600hL was very short on supply towards the end of production so LX570 was the only flagship that could be delivered regularly. While the official MSRP of the LX570 is ¥1.4M (USD 230k), the actual OTD price is usually north of ¥1.8M (USD 285k) and some are willing to go over 2M. Even at that price point it is still cheaper than the LS600hL, or a GLS500, or a X5 XDrive 50i though these people really don't care. They buy the LX because it is unique, and is the best Lexus there is. It stays true today: Lexus dealers already need to offer deals on the LS500h to sell them, while the LX still carries a mark-up (although at a more reasonable scale now).

So selling one LX570 here is equivalent to selling fifty super low margin ES200s, and salespeople get a hefty commission for the job. I find the LX very comparable to the Toyota Alphard, which too has ridiculous profitability due to uniqueness. Competitors could never convince the top executives to sit in their luxury minivans. These people don't want cargo haulers with fancy leather chairs; they want a purpose-built VIP transport with a silky-smooth V6 and luxury car suspension.

So in the end, the LX is for those who know exactly what they want. The LF-1 is for the more numerous generic luxury buyers.

Thanks @ssun30, I wasn't familiar with the Alphard since it's not offered in the US. I can totally see the attraction of one in a higher-lux trim in a place where it's normal not to drive the car yourself like China. Or they could make a taller decontented version and go after whoever makes the Sprinter this year (I swear it's got a different badge every year).

Thanks @ssun30, I wasn't familiar with the Alphard since it's not offered in the US. I can totally see the attraction of one in a higher-lux trim in a place where it's normal not to drive the car yourself like China. Or they could make a taller decontented version and go after whoever makes the Sprinter this year (I swear it's got a different badge every year).

Thanks @ssun30, I wasn't familiar with the Alphard since it's not offered in the US. I can totally see the attraction of one in a higher-lux trim in a place where it's normal not to drive the car yourself like China. Or they could make a taller decontented version and go after whoever makes the Sprinter this year (I swear it's got a different badge every year).

Ironically we still waiting any BOF SUVs or Trucks based on the new TNGA

I think or we can say I hope they will be the next Tundra / Seqouia combo

By the way
Did anyone see the new 2018 Corolla hatch? , It resemble a lot of LF-Ch lines, especially in the rear even with the rear lights, which as if Toyota made it clear RIP Lexus compact hatch

Ironically we still waiting any BOF SUVs or Trucks based on the new TNGA

I think or we can say I hope they will be the next Tundra / Seqouia combo

By the way
Did anyone see the new 2018 Corolla hatch? , It resemble a lot of LF-Ch lines, especially in the rear even with the rear lights, which as if Toyota made it clear RIP Lexus compact hatch

Ironically we still waiting any BOF SUVs or Trucks based on the new TNGA

I think or we can say I hope they will be the next Tundra / Seqouia combo

By the way
Did anyone see the new 2018 Corolla hatch? , It resemble a lot of LF-Ch lines, especially in the rear even with the rear lights, which as if Toyota made it clear RIP Lexus compact hatch

Buried in an Australian Financial Review interview of Lexus International president Yoshihiro Sawa (featured in a Lexus Enthusiast news story and separate Lexus Lounge thread) is this noteworthy passage:

Lexus has also displayed a much larger and more luxurious "concept" known as the LF-1 Limitless...although Sawa won't confirm as much, a production version is likely to be shown at next year's Tokyo Motor Show.

In other words, the 2019 Tokyo Motor Show's first press day (most likely Wednesday 30 October) could see the first reveal of Lexus' 6th crossover/SUV line.

Buried in an Australian Financial Review interview of Lexus International president Yoshihiro Sawa (featured in a Lexus Enthusiast news story and separate Lexus Lounge thread) is this noteworthy passage:

Lexus has also displayed a much larger and more luxurious "concept" known as the LF-1 Limitless...although Sawa won't confirm as much, a production version is likely to be shown at next year's Tokyo Motor Show.

In other words, the 2019 Tokyo Motor Show's first press day (most likely Wednesday 30 October) could see the first reveal of Lexus' 6th crossover/SUV line.

Buried in an Australian Financial Review interview of Lexus International president Yoshihiro Sawa (featured in a Lexus Enthusiast news story and separate Lexus Lounge thread) is this noteworthy passage:

Lexus has also displayed a much larger and more luxurious "concept" known as the LF-1 Limitless...although Sawa won't confirm as much, a production version is likely to be shown at next year's Tokyo Motor Show.

In other words, the 2019 Tokyo Motor Show's first press day (most likely Wednesday 30 October) could see the first reveal of Lexus' 6th crossover/SUV line.

^^^

Wow, I never thought we will see the production LF-1 this fast

^^^

Wow, I never thought we will see the production LF-1 this fast

^^^

Wow, I never thought we will see the production LF-1 this fast

Some great posts here recently....

Another angle I want to add. If one has a RX and wants to go to the next level and stay with the company, they have no option. There is no RX F. There is no RX Coupe or SUV Coupe from Lexus. They WILL NOT want a GX or LX. So they have to jump ship. The LF-1 would satisfy a growing need of people who love their RX's and want to go up a notch or two. A LC esque SUV hits all the damn marks IMO.

I've put a lot of thought into the LF-1 recently and then thought of our personal situation.

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

(edit, I also didn't include now the Italians and the Brit with the Stelvo and Levante and F-Pace now offering 550hp plus options)



As for the LX I've talked to quite a few LC and LX owners and I find it's not that the LC owner cannot afford a LX, they just prefer the low key Toyota Badge to the Lexus. Many are longtime LC owners as Gecko stated and they will continue to buy a LC.

It didn't work for VW too well but I recall speaking to Tourag owners about their decision to get it over a Cayenne and it was the same thing. They preferred the low key badge to owning a Porsche.

As for me personally I don't give AF how old the LX is, what is it based on, it's MPG etc. I am head over heels for it. And it drives shockingly nimble for a BOF tank that weighs 6000lbs. It defies physics and truly astounds me. Try driving a G-Wagon or Escalade it constantly reminds you its a BOF.

What I would like to see? More interior options, not just wood (aluminum, piano black wood, black headliner). The red leather option is an amazingly great decision. More cubby space, there isn't much random places to store items. And I really wish the TRD S/C was an option for 500hp.

And the thing is you might get a few LX owners who jump ship to a LF-1 but most will only consider a LX and maybe the LF-1 joins the fleet of vehicles they have. Totally different markets though I assumed priced the same.

Some great posts here recently....

Another angle I want to add. If one has a RX and wants to go to the next level and stay with the company, they have no option. There is no RX F. There is no RX Coupe or SUV Coupe from Lexus. They WILL NOT want a GX or LX. So they have to jump ship. The LF-1 would satisfy a growing need of people who love their RX's and want to go up a notch or two. A LC esque SUV hits all the damn marks IMO.

I've put a lot of thought into the LF-1 recently and then thought of our personal situation.

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

(edit, I also didn't include now the Italians and the Brit with the Stelvo and Levante and F-Pace now offering 550hp plus options)



As for the LX I've talked to quite a few LC and LX owners and I find it's not that the LC owner cannot afford a LX, they just prefer the low key Toyota Badge to the Lexus. Many are longtime LC owners as Gecko stated and they will continue to buy a LC.

It didn't work for VW too well but I recall speaking to Tourag owners about their decision to get it over a Cayenne and it was the same thing. They preferred the low key badge to owning a Porsche.

As for me personally I don't give AF how old the LX is, what is it based on, it's MPG etc. I am head over heels for it. And it drives shockingly nimble for a BOF tank that weighs 6000lbs. It defies physics and truly astounds me. Try driving a G-Wagon or Escalade it constantly reminds you its a BOF.

What I would like to see? More interior options, not just wood (aluminum, piano black wood, black headliner). The red leather option is an amazingly great decision. More cubby space, there isn't much random places to store items. And I really wish the TRD S/C was an option for 500hp.

And the thing is you might get a few LX owners who jump ship to a LF-1 but most will only consider a LX and maybe the LF-1 joins the fleet of vehicles they have. Totally different markets though I assumed priced the same.

Some great posts here recently....

Another angle I want to add. If one has a RX and wants to go to the next level and stay with the company, they have no option. There is no RX F. There is no RX Coupe or SUV Coupe from Lexus. They WILL NOT want a GX or LX. So they have to jump ship. The LF-1 would satisfy a growing need of people who love their RX's and want to go up a notch or two. A LC esque SUV hits all the damn marks IMO.

I've put a lot of thought into the LF-1 recently and then thought of our personal situation.

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

(edit, I also didn't include now the Italians and the Brit with the Stelvo and Levante and F-Pace now offering 550hp plus options)



As for the LX I've talked to quite a few LC and LX owners and I find it's not that the LC owner cannot afford a LX, they just prefer the low key Toyota Badge to the Lexus. Many are longtime LC owners as Gecko stated and they will continue to buy a LC.

It didn't work for VW too well but I recall speaking to Tourag owners about their decision to get it over a Cayenne and it was the same thing. They preferred the low key badge to owning a Porsche.

As for me personally I don't give AF how old the LX is, what is it based on, it's MPG etc. I am head over heels for it. And it drives shockingly nimble for a BOF tank that weighs 6000lbs. It defies physics and truly astounds me. Try driving a G-Wagon or Escalade it constantly reminds you its a BOF.

What I would like to see? More interior options, not just wood (aluminum, piano black wood, black headliner). The red leather option is an amazingly great decision. More cubby space, there isn't much random places to store items. And I really wish the TRD S/C was an option for 500hp.

And the thing is you might get a few LX owners who jump ship to a LF-1 but most will only consider a LX and maybe the LF-1 joins the fleet of vehicles they have. Totally different markets though I assumed priced the same.

mikeavelli

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfort can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

mikeavelli

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfort can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

mikeavelli

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfort can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

Levi

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfor63t can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

Levi

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfor63t can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

Levi

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfor63t can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

mikeavelli

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

Just as we have sedans and wagons for more cargo, the same can go for CUVs/SUVs, like GLC Wagon and GLC Coupe. As I said, I do not see evidence (at least in Europe) that CUVs/SUVs are purchased only for cargo purposes, thus the less practical makes sense. Just customers need time to accept and dare buying the less practical version, without fear of resale value etc. Another issue is that many CUVs/SUVs are too tall, van-ish, and would not look good as a 'coupe'.

I wish I could build and sell some cars, bypassing some regulations. They would/should be hits.

mikeavelli

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

Just as we have sedans and wagons for more cargo, the same can go for CUVs/SUVs, like GLC Wagon and GLC Coupe. As I said, I do not see evidence (at least in Europe) that CUVs/SUVs are purchased only for cargo purposes, thus the less practical makes sense. Just customers need time to accept and dare buying the less practical version, without fear of resale value etc. Another issue is that many CUVs/SUVs are too tall, van-ish, and would not look good as a 'coupe'.

I wish I could build and sell some cars, bypassing some regulations. They would/should be hits.

mikeavelli

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

Just as we have sedans and wagons for more cargo, the same can go for CUVs/SUVs, like GLC Wagon and GLC Coupe. As I said, I do not see evidence (at least in Europe) that CUVs/SUVs are purchased only for cargo purposes, thus the less practical makes sense. Just customers need time to accept and dare buying the less practical version, without fear of resale value etc. Another issue is that many CUVs/SUVs are too tall, van-ish, and would not look good as a 'coupe'.

I wish I could build and sell some cars, bypassing some regulations. They would/should be hits.

Both LX and LC200 are made primarily for different markets than US. For such reasons, they will never stop being what they are, they can do it only better with more variation in trims, stronger engine and better looks.

This is why LX got such extensive redesign, it started outselling LS worldwide 8-9 years ago so they put more money into it.

So it can never make too much sense from US point of view, it is luxury SUV made for the deserts and rough roads, as such it will never truly compete with LF-1.

And Levi, both LC150 and LC200 have poor quality interiors ever since last FMC long time ago. They are poor for the price. Yes, they have gotten better with MMC's, but not that much better. I have driven many when I worked at Toyota. So many. And LC200 does not have a very hard wearing interior. We had problems with seats and wheels ever since start. They were very popular back then, since this is Eastern Europe and people did not complain much, but today, even last updated Prado is simply not good enough for the price. Thankfully buyers get it for go-anywhere ability and legendary reliability.

I am sure that for FMC, they will make it as good as it should have been. Many new Toyota's, especially upcoming ones, have better perceived quality than those two (and yes I am talking about cheap ones).

Both LX and LC200 are made primarily for different markets than US. For such reasons, they will never stop being what they are, they can do it only better with more variation in trims, stronger engine and better looks.

This is why LX got such extensive redesign, it started outselling LS worldwide 8-9 years ago so they put more money into it.

So it can never make too much sense from US point of view, it is luxury SUV made for the deserts and rough roads, as such it will never truly compete with LF-1.

And Levi, both LC150 and LC200 have poor quality interiors ever since last FMC long time ago. They are poor for the price. Yes, they have gotten better with MMC's, but not that much better. I have driven many when I worked at Toyota. So many. And LC200 does not have a very hard wearing interior. We had problems with seats and wheels ever since start. They were very popular back then, since this is Eastern Europe and people did not complain much, but today, even last updated Prado is simply not good enough for the price. Thankfully buyers get it for go-anywhere ability and legendary reliability.

I am sure that for FMC, they will make it as good as it should have been. Many new Toyota's, especially upcoming ones, have better perceived quality than those two (and yes I am talking about cheap ones).

Both LX and LC200 are made primarily for different markets than US. For such reasons, they will never stop being what they are, they can do it only better with more variation in trims, stronger engine and better looks.

This is why LX got such extensive redesign, it started outselling LS worldwide 8-9 years ago so they put more money into it.

So it can never make too much sense from US point of view, it is luxury SUV made for the deserts and rough roads, as such it will never truly compete with LF-1.

And Levi, both LC150 and LC200 have poor quality interiors ever since last FMC long time ago. They are poor for the price. Yes, they have gotten better with MMC's, but not that much better. I have driven many when I worked at Toyota. So many. And LC200 does not have a very hard wearing interior. We had problems with seats and wheels ever since start. They were very popular back then, since this is Eastern Europe and people did not complain much, but today, even last updated Prado is simply not good enough for the price. Thankfully buyers get it for go-anywhere ability and legendary reliability.

I am sure that for FMC, they will make it as good as it should have been. Many new Toyota's, especially upcoming ones, have better perceived quality than those two (and yes I am talking about cheap ones).