Rendered: The Next-Generation Lexus IS Sedan

joepac

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

You can't have an opinion because somebody challenged you? Boy if I had a penny for every time a counter opinion on the internet.


I think you have cleared this up pretty well on your own.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

The car that you say is a performance flop, which you didn't even test thoroughly enough to tell?

zeusus

You can't have an opinion because somebody challenged you? Boy if I had a penny for every time a counter opinion on the internet.


I think you have cleared this up pretty well on your own.



The car that you say is a performance flop, which you didn't even test thoroughly enough to tell?

I meant I didn't take it on the track and take it to 9/10ths but I drove them enough to determine for me it was not enough of a step up from my 2IS... but whatever bro. We'll agree to disagree on the superiority of the 3IS fsport over the 2is...:thumbsup:

joepac

I meant I didn't take it on the track and take it to 9/10ths but I drove them enough to determine for me it was not enough of a step up from my 2IS... but whatever bro. We'll agree to disagree on the superiority of the 3IS fsport over the 2is...:thumbsup:

In my opinion - the 3IS is a huge step up from the 2IS. While the 2IS had strong acceleration because of an aggressive gearing ratio and the competition at time was weak, it handled super poorly. The 2IS was a poor handling car. It had one of the numbest steering of any car at the time - there was just no feed back. However - the 3IS is the best handling car in its class today. Its better than the F30 3 Series by miles. It dethroned it in handling. We will just have to wait and see for the G20 3 Series.

spwolf

So you think that buyers dont compare prices of the cars but rather numbers of the back? So they compare 5k-10k more expensive 3 series to similar numbered 3IS?

Not sure about that...

IS will never be successful as 3/C/A4 because these guys have huge European/German market where they are fleet vehicles like Camry... amount of sales they do, which enables them to do many other things with it, is simply different to IS... Lexus has that with ES, RX and NX... and will likely never have it with IS.

That does not mean that IS cant be good competitor to C/3/A4... New 3 is nothing special at all. If Lexus released a vehicle with such all-plastic interior it would have been called a dead brand, instead you have same people who harp on Lexus for not having enough wood, love silver plastic in new 3. It is weird.

Most of the sales in this market happen on base models with base engines... Sure, Lexus needs to get smarter with PR and do IS500 F-Sport model so every journalist can test it and call it a great car... reality is that that engine, even if priced great vs similar BMW/C, will likely sell 5% of the IS sales.

Watching at Paris how BMW unveils their new 3 series, where every car is not only a top spec, but also with optional equipment and where maybe 1% of them will be like that in Europe, while at the same time Toyota shows new Rav4 mid-spec trips and Corolla with cloth seats... these are companies on completely different level of PR towards their customers.

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 30oh to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, an knowing that historically, the IS has been one of Lexus' most daring vehicles in terms of design, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

joepac

IIRC 350's didn't have the carbon deposit issue.

Correct. The carbon buildup is an issue with the direct injection-only 4GR-FSE 2.5-liter V6 in the IS 250. The addition of dual D-4S direct + port injection in the 3.5-liter 2GR-FSE V6 in the IS 350 alleviates this issue.

Gecko

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

I agree with you. I think that the size of the 4IS will be dramatically larger but not as large as the GS. Something in the middle. Which is (IMHO) a shame really. I would have loved something the size of the current IS. Parking spots are not getting any larger but people are getting fatter and clumsier. That only means one thing really...more door marks!

Gecko

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

While I agree with majority of the context of what you said, I want to highlight some things.
A BMW can definitely be leased cheaper than a Lexus IS. But that begs the question - how optioned out is that BMW? At the end of the day - the cheapest leased BMW is the BMW with the least options. And when you compare a car to its competition - we are talking about relation between price, features, and performance.

Lets take a look at the Lexus IS for example. If you compare the Lexus IS300 to the BMW 320i, the BMW 320i. Both cars, with literally everything on it, will cost roughly between 46K-47K Sticker.
This is why I think it makes sense for the Lexus IS300 competes with the BMW 320i. The sticker price, performance level, and the amount of tech you get it similar, very similar.

Similarity - the Lexus IS350 competes with the BMW 330i. With the BMW 330i equipped to similar features of the Lexus IS350, we are looking at that Lexus IS350 costing 50K with the 330i pushing close to 58K.
Despite lease deal - the Lexus IS will still be cheaper in this option.

I get what you are saying. You are saying that if the Lexus IS300 had similar specs to the 330i and the Lexus IS350 was the M340i competitor, sales will boom/increase. I disagree with you here. If you look at the Lexus IS250/IS350 sales back in 2006, it nearly matches the same sale numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS250/350. What I'm saying is - 8 years later - with the same engine - the car sold almost the same.

True. People respond to how a car drives behind the wheel. Those people are car enthusiasts or people that relatively care about cars to a point. For the mass demographic of people? The elder generation? The younger millennial that don't really care as long they have access to a car? The Lexus demographic doesn't care about the performance. Majority of Lexus IS owners are Lexus IS250 and IS300 owners. But this is also why I agree that the IS300h needs to be introduced. It'll sell well in the USA.

While the 330i is similar to the IS350 because they are in the same competition, its not true you can lease a 330i for cheaper than a Lexus IS300. If you want a 330i with options that are similar to the IS, you won't be able to lease cheaper. If you are talking about a shell and option-less 330i, then yes it can be cheaper. But if the BMW 330i is option less, how is it a competitor to the Lexus IS?

Again - BMW/MB sales, in the terms of the 3 Series and C-Class, no one will ever beat. If we are talking about the context of the USA, 3 Series and C-Class are fleet cars here in the USA too. They are sold to rental car agencies and a lot of private businesses use them as fleet cars. Ever wonder why the Audi A4 sales never matched their German rivals? Because A4 is not sold in the USA as a fleet car. Similarity - the IS isn't either.

I agree with you here. Toyota has a big big chance to wow with the 4G Lexus IS. Japanese brands are good at generational designs. German brands tend to play extremely conservative in this department. Their designs are more like refreshes, rather than overhauls. The G20 BMW looks pretty much the same as the F30 BMW.

I think the Lexus IS will increase in size but I don't think it'll be the size of the Camry, like you are putting it. I believe the Lexus IS will increase in size only slightly while they are using the Lexus ES as the void filler for the GS. Someone said before, I don't know where on Lexus Enthusiasts, that the IS/ES is like a combo sale. Like they are brother/sisters. They both start at the roughly the same price, however, one is smaller with a more "sporty" driving experience and one is bigger with a more space and comfortable experience.

just make IS the size of the 4GS since the ES is already as spacious as the LS. if they can do that with a lot of variation to satisfy current IS owners and also capture the GS customers then they will be good. The marketing team should do the same with the advert.

Only issue is the lack of toss-ability on bigger vehicles.

Not even sure what that means except for much better maneuvering on runabouts on my 02 Civic 5MT versus 11 Accord coupe 5AT with the former's suspension already not in the best condition.

internalaudit

Only issue is the lack of toss-ability on bigger vehicles.

Not even sure what that means except for much better maneuvering on runabouts on my 02 Civic 5MT versus 11 Accord coupe 5AT with the former's suspension already not in the best condition.

I definitely feel this on my smaller and lighter 2IS vs the 3IS, which I've sampled on a number of occasions.

bogglo

just make IS the size of the 4GS since the ES is already as spacious as the LS. if they can do that with a lot of variation to satisfy current IS owners and also capture the GS customers then they will be good. The marketing team should do the same with the advert.

Toyota will never the 4G IS will be the size of a GS. Because if they do, they are effectively indirectly making the IS the next GS. And if that happens, the ES sales will run-over the IS sales, like it did for the GS.

The problem was never the Lexus GS. The problem is the Lexus ES has become a major volume seller for the mass demographic that Toyota doesn't want to let it go. The average/mass demographic consumer will buy the Lexus ES over the GS because it was cheaper and offered similar amount of room. This is why GS sales tanked. This is why GS is going to get cancelled.

Taking that information and translating it into the debate on the 4G Lexus IS. We know the average mass demographic does not give a hoot about performance or driving dynamics. This is one of the reasons why I think a Lexus IS400 (with a TTV6) will never exist because the cost making of it won't justify the profit. Almost no one will buy the IS400, like how rarely anyone buys the 340i. Majority of the 3 Series on the road are 320i, 325i, 328i, and 330i.
Don't take my word for it - just take a look on the road and/or check AutoTrader for an easy example.
Here's the example:
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area - with a current population of 7.15 million people right now.
From my house - I set a 100 mile radius looking for BMW 3 Series. (100 millions is way past the Bay Area and will include Sacramento and then some).
I also set the years to 2006 to 2019 (Because the 335i started in 2006)
This on AutoTrader netted me 1000+ results for all BMW 3 Series.
Then I filtered it to only BMW 335i, 335i xDrive, 335is, 340i, 340i xDrive.
This on AutoTrader netted me only 195 results for all BMW 335i/340i. Effectively - this shows or gives us an idea - how often a high performance "3 Series" (that's not a M) is bought. Which is very very not often at all.

This goes back to why I believe the Lexus IS300/Lexus IS350 will relatively remain the same with the same 8AR/2GR engine. Or contain minor tweeks to the engine. And/or have a IS300h introduced.
Toyota would want to keep the Lexus IS300 because that's their base-engine and that's the IS main money maker. And to keep the cost low for people to buy it - they would have to cut-cost.
However, I think they will make the TTV6 IS-F because they can use that hype up the IS brand marque. Like how BMW and MB use M/AMG to hype up their 3/C line up.

@Sakura while i agree with most of your post, GS issues are its own... GS did the best in the USA, despite ES... it did worse everywhere else where ES was not even available.

joepac

Did I pee on your lawn bro? Lol damn...

And it was my brother in law...:p

My point was not about the IS350 Fsport being a flop in sales but in the performance arena (save the win in the C&D article "Habemas Papem"). Is the IS Fsport cars so much better than their non fsport counterparts? It is all marketing. The only option I like about the Fsport IS350 is the gimmicky gauge cluster and maybe the suspension. I own a 2010 IS350 Luxury edition. Almost bought the sport edition (in 2010 this would have been the equivalent to the F sport model as the options were almost identical in 2011 when the fsport debuted) but it lacked cooled seats, the rear sunshade and my ML sound system. And the driving experience was almost identical except for a smidge tighter suspension in the sport. So I went with the luxury model.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

F-sport is actually more comprehensive package than amg sport, s line or msport that BMW used to present new 3 series.
With Germans you can actually just small part of the package and a badge, while F-Sport is chasis/exterior/interior package.

So it is actually better than Germans, it needs to be repeated over and over.

Sakura

Similarity - the Lexus IS350 competes with the BMW 330i. With the BMW 330i equipped to similar features of the Lexus IS350, we are looking at that Lexus IS350 costing 50K with the 330i pushing close to 58K.
Despite lease deal - the Lexus IS will still be cheaper in this option.

IS will be cheaper via MSRP but I am not familiar with current lease rates, which is where MSRP becomes a moot point. When Lexus lease rates are higher because of residual values and BMW subsidizes theirs, an $8k difference in MSRP doesn't mean the cheaper IS is going to actually be cheaper to lease.

I get what you are saying. You are saying that if the Lexus IS300 had similar specs to the 330i and the Lexus IS350 was the M340i competitor, sales will boom/increase. I disagree with you here. If you look at the Lexus IS250/IS350 sales back in 2006, it nearly matches the same sale numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS250/350. What I'm saying is - 8 years later - with the same engine - the car sold almost the same.

Not necessarily. Having more competitive engines would help, but it's not the only issue - CarPlay, Android Auto, better accessories, an IS F would have all helped. But we are also talking about the same flagship engine dating back to 2006 - it is now 13 model years later - 2006 to 2014 to 2018 with the same V6 and an underperforming 2.0T is really lazy, especially when competition is even more fierce and there is a market shift to SUVs. Lexus has done nothing to invest in/update the IS to keep it relevant.

True. People respond to how a car drives behind the wheel. Those people are car enthusiasts or people that relatively care about cars to a point. What about for the mass demographic of people? The elder generation? The younger millennial that don't really care as long they have access to a car? Chances are they might not care. The Lexus demographic doesn't care about the performance. Majority of Lexus IS owners are Lexus IS250 and IS300 owners. But this is also why I agree that the IS300h needs to be introduced. It'll sell well in the USA.

Also not what I meant. The car buying public gets into a car and they want it to feel "fast enough," "comfortable enough," "smooth enough," etc - most never even look at the spec sheet aside from MPG. Many don't even know engine size or output. It's the enthusiast who knows the spec sheet and how the car performs relative to the competition. For that enthusiast, the IS 350 has lost its appeal - do you remember the endless comparisons in 2006/2007 with 335i, S4, Mustang, etc? Nobody cared when the third gen debuted with the same exact engine. It was old news at that point. Even 2.0T vs. 2.0T, the A4 and 330i feel much faster and more refined than the 8AR-FTS. I haven't driven a 320i, so I can't comment on that but if a 180hp BMW feels on par with a 241hp Lexus motor, we have a problem.

While the 330i is similar to the IS350 because they are in the same competition, its not true you can lease a 330i for cheaper than a Lexus IS300. If you want a 330i with options that are similar to the IS, you won't be able to lease cheaper. If you are talking about a shell and option-less 330i, then yes it can be cheaper. But if the BMW 330i is option less, how is it a competitor to the Lexus IS?

Quick googling shows 330i leases starting at $329/mo in my area, and IS 300 leases starting at $433. I found one 330i with MSRP of $48k leasing for $397/mo. The most expensive IS 300 I could find around me had an MSRP of $45k and was leasing for $497/mo. I really do not have the time to option up cars and compare them feature-for-feature, but every time I've looked at real world pricing data or helped friends/family shop, the IS does not lease favorably compared to 3 series, and most sales in this class are leases. The numbers above prove this point pretty well.

Sakura

From my house - I set a 100 mile radius looking for BMW 3 Series. (100 millions is way past the Bay Area and will include Sacramento and then some).
I also set the years to 2006 to 2019 (Because the 335i started in 2006)
This on AutoTrader netted me 1000+ results for all BMW 3 Series.
Then I filtered it to only BMW 335i, 335i xDrive, 335is, 340i, 340i xDrive.
This on AutoTrader netted me only 195 results for all BMW 335i/340i. Effectively - this shows or gives us an idea - how often a high performance "3 Series" (that's not a M) is bought. Which is very very not often at all.

That's the not-so-secret of MB and BMW's sales dominance - it's turbo 4s all the way down.

Gecko

IS will be cheaper via MSRP but I am not familiar with current lease rates, which is where MSRP becomes a moot point. When Lexus lease rates are higher because of residual values and BMW subsidizes theirs, an $8k difference in MSRP doesn't mean the cheaper IS is going to actually be cheaper to lease.

Not necessarily. Having more competitive engines would help, but it's not the only issue - CarPlay, Android Auto, better accessories, an IS F would have all helped. But we are also talking about the same flagship engine dating back to 2006 - it is now 13 model years later - 2006 to 2014 to 2018 with the same V6 and an underperforming 2.0T is really lazy, especially when competition is even more fierce and there is a market shift to SUVs. Lexus has done nothing to invest in/update the IS to keep it relevant.

Also not what I meant. The car buying public gets into a car and they want it to feel "fast enough," "comfortable enough," "smooth enough," etc - most never even look at the spec sheet aside from MPG. Many don't even know engine size or output. It's the enthusiast who knows the spec sheet and how the car performs relative to the competition. For that enthusiast, the IS 350 has lost its appeal - do you remember the endless comparisons in 2006/2007 with 335i, S4, Mustang, etc? Nobody cared when the third gen debuted with the same exact engine. It was old news at that point. Even 2.0T vs. 2.0T, the A4 and 330i feel much faster and more refined than the 8AR-FTS. I haven't driven a 320i, so I can't comment on that but if a 180hp BMW feels on par with a 241hp Lexus motor, we have a problem.

Quick googling shows 330i leases starting at $329/mo in my area, and IS 300 leases starting at $433. I found one 330i with MSRP of $48k leasing for $397/mo. The most expensive IS 300 I could find around me had an MSRP of $45k and was leasing for $497/mo. I really do not have the time to option up cars and compare them feature-for-feature, but every time I've looked at real world pricing data or helped friends/family shop, the IS does not lease favorably compared to 3 series, and most sales in this class are leases. The numbers above prove this point pretty well.

But the thing is - in terms of competition and comparing cars together - MSRP isn't a moot point. Its the actual point. Its the relation of price, features and performance. Just because a car leases cheaper - doesn't mean we can compare those cars together.
If we do that, that's effectively saying we can compare a Q50 Red Sport to that of a Lexus IS300. Q50 Red Sport lease prices are dirt cheap. We have to take consideration of all factors, not just money.

Actually - its debatable. You can add more competitive engines, more models, and more everything. The question is - what is the mass demographic going to buy and how much would it cost to make these cars to net profit. You can add fast engines but if barely anyone buys it - there is no point in making it and selling it.
Toyota has to see a reason to make a TTV6 Lexus IS400 or put the TTV6 into the Lexus IS350. My point is - if barely anyone buys the V6 IS350 already, why would they waste time tweaking the whole car just for it to have TTV6? Just to please the enthusiast? That boat sailed long ago.

Actually - no. The 2GR engine family itself dates back to 2002 but the engine that's in the IS350 is the 2GR-FKS which only dates back to 2015. The 2006 IS350 V6 is not the same V6 we have in today's IS350.
This goes back to my original point. The 2GR is likely to stay in the IS350 and best cast situation is that they tweak it again for more power.

The mistake is that people keep comparing the Lexus IS300 turbo to the likes of the Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T, 330i, and C300. We have to stop doing that. The Lexus IS300 turbo is a base turbo that was meant to compete with the A4 Ultra FWD 2.0T, 320i and Q50 2.0T. Its a detuned turbo 4 for the entry-level market. It is the mass-market Lexus IS.
We have to stop assuming because the Lexus IS250 compete with the 325i back in the day that the now new Lexus IS300 competes with the new 330i. Competitions change.

There are 2 versions of the A4 and 3 Series 2.0T. The 8AR competes with the detuned versions of that. However - Lexus made them better than those. Think about it this way - the Lexus IS300 slots above the A4 Ultra and 320i but below the A4 Quattro and 330i. Like I said before - the Lexus IS300 is the best base entry-level luxury sedan model you can buy.
Its better than the Q50 2.0T, A4 Ultra and 320i. You can assume Lexus made it better than them while being slower than the 330i, A4 Ultra, and 3.0T Silver Sport to take sales.

Yes. I remember the 2G Lexus IS350 being compared to the Mustang and 335i. I would argue we don't put the Mustang in the equation because the Mustang was behind on its time. At the time - the Mustang was a joke of a car.
But I know what you mean - you want the Lexus IS350 back to those glory days. Like I said before - the competition has changed and new models has been introduced.
If Lexus wants to compete in this competition, they can with a TTV6 Lexus IS400. They can make that, and still sell a IS300/IS350 for mass market consumers. However - Toyota is all about the $$$ which is the biggest reason why we will see a Lexus IS-F TTV6 before IS400.

Yeah. The mass, average demographic, probably feels a sub 7-8 second 0-60 car is fast enough. I would count my dad as a "average mass market" consumer. He, when we speak about cars, think 7-8 seconds is insanely fast already. People that think under 5 seconds for 0-60 is consider "fast" or "decent" is not mass market demographic buyers.
This is why cars like the Lexus IS300 and BMW 320i sold so well among buyers. Its because they thought it was fast enough.
This is why cars like the Lexus IS350, 340i, C43 AMG, Q50 Red Sport, Camry XSE V6, Accord V6/2.0T, and pretty much any "faster" version of a car never sold that well. People usually think the base model is fast enough for them because mass market buyers don't really care that much about speed. If they did, the market would have changed. If people cared about performance, like enthusiasts do, the average 0-60 car speed would be 5 seconds long ago.

I disagree. Your last point just proved my point that the cheaper/lesser optioned 330i leases better than a loaded Lexus IS300.
In the context of the BMW you found - it could be seen as basically a 330i with M Sport Pack with premier tier and then nothing else on it. This BMW 330i will not have blind spot warning, adaptive cruise control, sound system, and etc... will come to 48K. This is why the BMW 330i you found leases cheap. It barely has anything on it.
If you compare a loaded 330i and a loaded Lexus IS300 - option per option - we are looking at a 58K 330i and a 45K Lexus IS300. That is a 13K difference in sticker. The Lexus IS300 will lease cheaper.

I don't get this debate about lease prices. It's the sales department's problem if their lease prices are uncompetitive not the product's own problem, right?

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own. MSRP is the starting point - then there is negotiating, incentives, lease offers, loyalty cash, conquest cash, rebates, etc. BMW is simply much more aggressive in how they promote and sell/lease 3er than Lexus is with the IS.

Talking about the cost of "loaded" models, 3er also offers many options you can't even get on IS, namely leather, 360 cameras, CarPlay, etc. (Since when can you not even get leather on any Lexus? I wasn't aware of this.) Loaded IS is cheaper MSRP than loaded 330i because the BMW offers a lot of options Lexus doesn't. Spec'd out as closely as I can get them, there is about a $4k premium for BMW between IS 300 and 330i.

I am still trying to understand how you determine that IS 300 competes with 320i and A4 base - just price alone? Or because Lexus doesn't offer an even "more base" engine? You refer to the 8AR-FTS as "detuned entry level turbo four" but there is no "tuned up" 2.0T like BMW or Audi offer

Lexus 2.0T (IS 300):
241hp, 258 lb-ft of torque

BMW 320i:
180 hp, 200 lb-ft of torque

Audi A4 TFSI:
190 hp, 236 lb-ft

Gecko

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own. MSRP is the starting point - then there is negotiating, incentives, lease offers, loyalty cash, conquest cash, rebates, etc. BMW is simply much more aggressive in how they promote and sell/lease 3er than Lexus is with the IS.

Talking about the cost of "loaded" models, 3er also offers many options you can't even get on IS, namely leather, 360 cameras, CarPlay, etc. (Since when can you not even get leather on any Lexus? I wasn't aware of this.) Loaded IS is cheaper MSRP than loaded 330i because the BMW offers a lot of options Lexus doesn't. Spec'd out as closely as I can get them, there is about a $4k premium for BMW between IS 300 and 330i.

I am still trying to understand how you determine that IS 300 competes with 320i and A4 base - just price alone? Or because Lexus doesn't offer an even "more base" engine? You refer to the 8AR-FTS as "detuned entry level turbo four" but there is no "tuned up" 2.0T like BMW or Audi offer

Lexus 2.0T (IS 300):
241hp, 258 lb-ft of torque

BMW 320i:
180 hp, 200 lb-ft of torque

Audi A4 TFSI:
190 hp, 236 lb-ft

When has someone ever compares a vehicle using lease prices? Reviews and comparisons always state the sticker prices. You state sticker price within the competition to compare to other cars with similar prices because the sticker price is fixed. Lease prices, negotiations, and etc... is determined by the dealer. Meaning if you compare lease prices, wouldn't I be able to compare a Q50 Red Sport (that can be leased for less than $350 dollars) to a F30 BMW M3? However - the Red Sport doesn't compete with the F30 M3 despite the near performance numbers.

While its true that BMW can start a "special" offer of a low lease price, but that's for stripper models with no options. If you look at optioned out BMWs, that's based off of your own negotiations, dealer and location.

That's false, its not a 4K difference.
Here's the break down:
$45,000 for M Sport 330i (because you want to compare to the F-Sport)
$47,900 for the Premium Tier (because its the closest tier to the Lexus IS300) BMW is ahead with BMW HUD at this point in features.
$550 for black paint. (Lexus is free)
$0 for Sentac leather (BMW Fake Leather - to match with Lexus fake leather)
$500 for driving assist pack
$190 for heated wheel
$750 for park distance
$500 for Active blind spot detection
$1200 for adaptive cruise control
Total with destination: $52,585
Side note: this BMW 330i I just packaged above doesn't have 360 camera (that's executive tier) and Apple Car Play isn't packaged either.
Conclusion: The loaded Lexus IS300 price, with all those features the BMW 330i has (excluding the HUD), comes out to be only 45K. This is a 7.5K price difference. Again - this goes back to my point - loaded option per option - the BMW 330i is more expensive not because it has "more features" its because its overpriced. You will not be able to lease a 52.5K BMW 330i for less than a Lexus IS300 with the same options.

The Lexus IS300 competes with the Infiniti Q50 2.0T, Audi A4 Ultra, and BMW 320i because:
1) Price
2) All are entry-level base engine models
3) All of them carry nearly the same features. IE: BMW 320i doesn't have HUD or 360 Camera available to option.
4) Similar performance figures. IE: They all run high 6s to 7s 0-60.

I'm curious too - how did you determine the Lexus IS300 competes with the BMW 330i and A4 Quattro 2.0T? When the 330i and A4 cost significantly more, its faster, and has more features?

That's because Lexus doesn't have a "powerful" turbo 4. Their "detuned" turbo 4 is pretty much their V6 engine. Think about it this way - the Lexus IS300 = BMW 320i, Lexus IS350 = BMW 330i and Lexus doesn't have a 340i car.

Gecko

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own.

He is right. People walk in to discuss payment. Dealers advertise payments. Thus some brands have more leverage and you can get a 60k car for the same monthly has a 45k one. Infiniti and BMW more than anyone subsidizes leases where some models/packages are super attractive. Quite frankly it is really tough to beat a Q50 when you can lease them for $299/$399/$499 with minimal down. Those are Camry payments.

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

ssun30

I don't get this debate about lease prices. It's the sales department's problem if their lease prices are uncompetitive not the product's own problem, right?

mikeavelli

He is right. People walk in to discuss payment. Dealers advertise payments. Thus some brands have more leverage and you can get a 60k car for the same monthly has a 45k one. Infiniti and BMW more than anyone subsidizes leases where some models/packages are super attractive. Quite frankly it is really tough to beat a Q50 when you can lease them for $299/$399/$499 with minimal down. Those are Camry payments.

If people are cross shopping cars, they sure as hell are cross shopping payments.

Only the rare really savvy buyer discusses MSRP and negotiates from there.

It is of my opinion cross shopping is overrated and more an internet thing. I find people want what they want and already know it. They might consider something else if it is cheaper or they surprisingly fall in in love with it.

I help people with buying/leasing cars all the time. Rarely is someone totally unbiased and comparing cars on facts, test drives etc. Most like the looks, like the badge, want some features (NAV etc) and want a cheap payment.

Lexus gives that kind of support to cars likeRX, not IS... every manufacturer picks which are their core vehicles.

CT2IS

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification? I don't mind the 4IS being slower by a second or two than the mid-level G20 if it means it can get 50% more MPG than a BMW when city-driving and maybe 30% in highway driving. In order of priority: reliability, handling, fuel economy, other creature comforts. I don't mind sticking a smartphone mount if there isn't any Android Auto on the 4IS.

I think most who purchase a Lexus keeps the car longer than the typical 3-4 year lease period. Let's not kid ourselves, if money and functionality were no object for me, I would get a Porsche Cayman but it's too impractical for my household.

Also, from the article, BMW engineers were so surprised why each part, including bolts, were being sent to head office for further studies. :)

CT2IS

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

I was the one that said that and thank you for agreeing. :)

Yes. Lexus does have a lot of catching up to do if it wants to compete with the G20 M340i. But its not that much catching up. They have the tech and engine ready already. Its a matter of if they want to create a Lexus IS400 TTV6 to compete with the M340i.

I see the 4G Lexus IS line up going two ways:
1) Lexus IS300, 350, and 400
2) Lexus IS300, 350 and IS-F. My money is on the IS-F because its likely to come before a IS400.

internalaudit

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification?

Mild hybrid is not cheaper than full hybrid, and that's the problem which prevents it from really spreading. Lexus will have an entire full hybrid lineup by 2025, for them mild hybrid is an unnecessary technological dead-end. Many supporters of the mild hybrid are European manufacturers who invested too much into the soon-to-be-dead diesel technology and cannot catch up in the hybrid game.

CT2IS

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

This is where I hope they would inject a "Pre-F" Is400 model but as has been pointed out, given Lexus' mindset, this ain't gon' happen.

They'll prob make an IS-F as the next tier up which will be on par with the 340i and the M3/C AMG/QF et.al will go uncontested by Lexus... Again.

But again it is apparent Lexus' MO does not include a serious commitment to performance outside of sporadically injecting F badged cars with limited performance that took almost a decade to develop. But hey, theyre reliable.

CT2IS

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

We don't know the full story about the MK5 Supra yet....

With that said, let me add the whole story regarding what Toyota thinks of BMW engineering. During their shared meetings before Supra/Z4 development started, Toyota was impressed with some aspects of BMW engineering and R&D and appalled at other aspects. The reverse scenario also occurred, because simply put BMW and Toyota corporate cultures are radically different.

CIF

We don't know the full story about the MK5 Supra yet....

With that said, let me add the whole story regarding what Toyota thinks of BMW engineering. During their shared meetings before Supra/Z4 development started, Toyota was impressed with some aspects of BMW engineering and R&D and appalled at other aspects. The reverse scenario also occurred, because simply put BMW and Toyota corporate cultures are radically different.

Anyone got a link to this article? Sounds interesting.

joepac

Anyone got a link to this article? Sounds interesting.

It's somewhere in the last 4 or 5 pages of the Mk5 Supra thread on these forums.

CT2IS

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

Just to be clear, this isn't really true. The main reason Toyota chose BMW as a partner to build the Supra is that BMW had an off-the-shelf I6 design which is true to the heritage of the Supra. Building a one-off I6 for a low volume sports car makes zero sense - it was a business decision. Now, plenty of folks have feelings about a BMW engine inside Toyota's most legendary sports car - myself included - but this decision wasn't, "Oh, BMW builds better engines than we do. Let's use them for the Supra."

Quite frankly, if they hadn't wanted to stay true to the heritage of an I6, V35A-FTS would have been a kick-ass engine for the Supra. I really wish they'd gone that route, actually.

416hp/442lb-ft of torque in a 3,200lb car? Yeeeeah. I'll take it!