Lexus USA Announces 2019 ES 350 & ES 300h Pricing

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES

Ultra White & Nobel Brown.

View the original article post

Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES

Ultra White & Nobel Brown.

View the original article post

Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES

Ultra White & Nobel Brown.

View the original article post

Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES

Ultra White & Nobel Brown.

View the original article post

Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES

Ultra White & Nobel Brown.

View the original article post

Joaquin Ruhi

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

One problem with E-Four on their current hybrid vehicles is that it's always part-time AWD. With so little energy storage in the HV battery the ICE has to work hard to keep the rear motor powered. So most of the time the 450h will drive exactly like a FWD vehicle, with the controlling unit only turning on E-Four operation when slip is detected. It's sufficient for driving in low grip conditions, but not a good fit for performance applications.

Part of the reason why I hate E-Four is how much weight and complexity it adds to solve a very simple problem. I never understand why they did not put a conventional transaxle after the output shaft of the hybrid system to get AWD. They said it eliminates the mechanical link between the axles and reduces weight, except it doesn't. They still need an electrical link and an extra set of power control electronics, as well as a very oversized rear motor that is dead weight most of the time.

Joaquin Ruhi

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

One problem with E-Four on their current hybrid vehicles is that it's always part-time AWD. With so little energy storage in the HV battery the ICE has to work hard to keep the rear motor powered. So most of the time the 450h will drive exactly like a FWD vehicle, with the controlling unit only turning on E-Four operation when slip is detected. It's sufficient for driving in low grip conditions, but not a good fit for performance applications.

Part of the reason why I hate E-Four is how much weight and complexity it adds to solve a very simple problem. I never understand why they did not put a conventional transaxle after the output shaft of the hybrid system to get AWD. They said it eliminates the mechanical link between the axles and reduces weight, except it doesn't. They still need an electrical link and an extra set of power control electronics, as well as a very oversized rear motor that is dead weight most of the time.

Joaquin Ruhi

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

One problem with E-Four on their current hybrid vehicles is that it's always part-time AWD. With so little energy storage in the HV battery the ICE has to work hard to keep the rear motor powered. So most of the time the 450h will drive exactly like a FWD vehicle, with the controlling unit only turning on E-Four operation when slip is detected. It's sufficient for driving in low grip conditions, but not a good fit for performance applications.

Part of the reason why I hate E-Four is how much weight and complexity it adds to solve a very simple problem. I never understand why they did not put a conventional transaxle after the output shaft of the hybrid system to get AWD. They said it eliminates the mechanical link between the axles and reduces weight, except it doesn't. They still need an electrical link and an extra set of power control electronics, as well as a very oversized rear motor that is dead weight most of the time.

Joaquin Ruhi

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

One problem with E-Four on their current hybrid vehicles is that it's always part-time AWD. With so little energy storage in the HV battery the ICE has to work hard to keep the rear motor powered. So most of the time the 450h will drive exactly like a FWD vehicle, with the controlling unit only turning on E-Four operation when slip is detected. It's sufficient for driving in low grip conditions, but not a good fit for performance applications.

Part of the reason why I hate E-Four is how much weight and complexity it adds to solve a very simple problem. I never understand why they did not put a conventional transaxle after the output shaft of the hybrid system to get AWD. They said it eliminates the mechanical link between the axles and reduces weight, except it doesn't. They still need an electrical link and an extra set of power control electronics, as well as a very oversized rear motor that is dead weight most of the time.

Joaquin Ruhi

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

One problem with E-Four on their current hybrid vehicles is that it's always part-time AWD. With so little energy storage in the HV battery the ICE has to work hard to keep the rear motor powered. So most of the time the 450h will drive exactly like a FWD vehicle, with the controlling unit only turning on E-Four operation when slip is detected. It's sufficient for driving in low grip conditions, but not a good fit for performance applications.

Part of the reason why I hate E-Four is how much weight and complexity it adds to solve a very simple problem. I never understand why they did not put a conventional transaxle after the output shaft of the hybrid system to get AWD. They said it eliminates the mechanical link between the axles and reduces weight, except it doesn't. They still need an electrical link and an extra set of power control electronics, as well as a very oversized rear motor that is dead weight most of the time.

Gecko

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Ergh, again, we have never had ES in Japan and in whole of EU, and GS sales are not any better.

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

Last year there were 3 months of GS in stock in your average Lexus dealer, so I am not sure how many do you think they should stock?

Gecko

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Ergh, again, we have never had ES in Japan and in whole of EU, and GS sales are not any better.

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

Last year there were 3 months of GS in stock in your average Lexus dealer, so I am not sure how many do you think they should stock?

Gecko

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Ergh, again, we have never had ES in Japan and in whole of EU, and GS sales are not any better.

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

Last year there were 3 months of GS in stock in your average Lexus dealer, so I am not sure how many do you think they should stock?

Gecko

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Ergh, again, we have never had ES in Japan and in whole of EU, and GS sales are not any better.

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

Last year there were 3 months of GS in stock in your average Lexus dealer, so I am not sure how many do you think they should stock?

Gecko

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Ergh, again, we have never had ES in Japan and in whole of EU, and GS sales are not any better.

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

Last year there were 3 months of GS in stock in your average Lexus dealer, so I am not sure how many do you think they should stock?

spwolf

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

I cannot speak to pricing and packaging in other parts of the world, but I know that for a long time, Lexus has sent larger than necessary, and thus expensive, engine options to global markets where E-Class, 5er and A6 offer 2.0L diesels and are cheaper. In addition, Lexus 2.0T has never been seen as cutting edge or very efficient in markets where it does exist. IMO, Lexus has just never been able to figure out how to correctly package or position GS in relation to ES, or globally, E, 5 and A6. At the same time, Lexus has made the conscious decision to grow the ES from being a small entry level car to now being larger than the LS... most directly impacting GS from a price and size perspective.

Perhaps this new ES will give them the scale and packaging options to make it a more appealing global product - something GS always struggled with.

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

spwolf

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

I cannot speak to pricing and packaging in other parts of the world, but I know that for a long time, Lexus has sent larger than necessary, and thus expensive, engine options to global markets where E-Class, 5er and A6 offer 2.0L diesels and are cheaper. In addition, Lexus 2.0T has never been seen as cutting edge or very efficient in markets where it does exist. IMO, Lexus has just never been able to figure out how to correctly package or position GS in relation to ES, or globally, E, 5 and A6. At the same time, Lexus has made the conscious decision to grow the ES from being a small entry level car to now being larger than the LS... most directly impacting GS from a price and size perspective.

Perhaps this new ES will give them the scale and packaging options to make it a more appealing global product - something GS always struggled with.

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

spwolf

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

I cannot speak to pricing and packaging in other parts of the world, but I know that for a long time, Lexus has sent larger than necessary, and thus expensive, engine options to global markets where E-Class, 5er and A6 offer 2.0L diesels and are cheaper. In addition, Lexus 2.0T has never been seen as cutting edge or very efficient in markets where it does exist. IMO, Lexus has just never been able to figure out how to correctly package or position GS in relation to ES, or globally, E, 5 and A6. At the same time, Lexus has made the conscious decision to grow the ES from being a small entry level car to now being larger than the LS... most directly impacting GS from a price and size perspective.

Perhaps this new ES will give them the scale and packaging options to make it a more appealing global product - something GS always struggled with.

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

spwolf

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

I cannot speak to pricing and packaging in other parts of the world, but I know that for a long time, Lexus has sent larger than necessary, and thus expensive, engine options to global markets where E-Class, 5er and A6 offer 2.0L diesels and are cheaper. In addition, Lexus 2.0T has never been seen as cutting edge or very efficient in markets where it does exist. IMO, Lexus has just never been able to figure out how to correctly package or position GS in relation to ES, or globally, E, 5 and A6. At the same time, Lexus has made the conscious decision to grow the ES from being a small entry level car to now being larger than the LS... most directly impacting GS from a price and size perspective.

Perhaps this new ES will give them the scale and packaging options to make it a more appealing global product - something GS always struggled with.

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

spwolf

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

I cannot speak to pricing and packaging in other parts of the world, but I know that for a long time, Lexus has sent larger than necessary, and thus expensive, engine options to global markets where E-Class, 5er and A6 offer 2.0L diesels and are cheaper. In addition, Lexus 2.0T has never been seen as cutting edge or very efficient in markets where it does exist. IMO, Lexus has just never been able to figure out how to correctly package or position GS in relation to ES, or globally, E, 5 and A6. At the same time, Lexus has made the conscious decision to grow the ES from being a small entry level car to now being larger than the LS... most directly impacting GS from a price and size perspective.

Perhaps this new ES will give them the scale and packaging options to make it a more appealing global product - something GS always struggled with.

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

I don't know if it is just me but every time I see the rear of the 2019 Lexus ES it reminds me of mix of 2011 to 2014 Hyundai Sonata and of the 2013 Lexus GS rear.

I don't know if it is just me but every time I see the rear of the 2019 Lexus ES it reminds me of mix of 2011 to 2014 Hyundai Sonata and of the 2013 Lexus GS rear.

I don't know if it is just me but every time I see the rear of the 2019 Lexus ES it reminds me of mix of 2011 to 2014 Hyundai Sonata and of the 2013 Lexus GS rear.

I don't know if it is just me but every time I see the rear of the 2019 Lexus ES it reminds me of mix of 2011 to 2014 Hyundai Sonata and of the 2013 Lexus GS rear.

I don't know if it is just me but every time I see the rear of the 2019 Lexus ES it reminds me of mix of 2011 to 2014 Hyundai Sonata and of the 2013 Lexus GS rear.

Gecko

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.

Gecko

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.