Photo Gallery: The 2019 Lexus ES 350 F SPORT in Ultrasonic Blue & Ultra White

mediumhot

It's my understanding that many Lexus customers in Europe come from Toyota culture. Now for the first time ever Toyota is giving them the chance to pick exact same car under 2 different badges. If equipped as same as in US Camry in Europe will be considered a luxury vehicle, not a premium vehicle like Lexus but for sure a luxury vehicle much like LC Prado and LC V8 are. There will be some cannibalization.

It is hard to understand how you think that Camry and ES are exact same cars under 2 different bages. I wish it was true, I would get Camry right away.

Yeah, the ES is Avalon-based, which is already a step above Camry.

krew

Collected: More Reviews of the 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

Three strong reviews.

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Will Europe get the ES 350? I know that Europe never had any 350 without hybrid, so only 450h.

spwolf

It certainly does not compete with A4, but it does compete with A6 and other cars in the class... I suggest you go to the dealership and talk to the people there what are they cross-shopping ES with.

As to why I think that, it is because I live in Europe, and your competitors do not exist here. As I mentioned several times so far, all European magazines are calling it A6/E/5 competitor, and I personally think it is delusional to thank that majority of people buying base models of these vehicles are buying it for RWD or handling characteristics, and even then that they are not drastically different from new ES.

Now if we are talking about higher end of the market, like 540i or 535d, then it is another story, but these days those buyers are in minority, especially in Europe, where these vehicles are mostly sold with 2.0 tdi engines.

Maybe because you live in Europe and this is why we are having a difference of opinion. The thing is - Europe sees the Lexus ES as a A6, 5, and E competition because Lexus is axing the GS there and selling the ES there for the first time. When you cancel something and add something that has never been sold there, its likely people will think "similar competition." However - that doesn't make it an actually competitor to the A6, 5, and E. A car competes within its segment because of the traits it shares with the other vehicles.

The GS better competes with the A6, 5 and E because it offers RWD and AWD. The A6 is in there because of its longitudinal FWD and AWD system. The driving dynamics, the size, the luxury, the craftmenship, and etc... all play a role in how the car competes within a segment.

While I agree that majority of people buying a base model of these vehicles aren't buying it for the RWD or handling, it doesn't mean the ES competes directly with the A6, 5 and E.

And I disagree. RWD/AWD and longitudinal FWD/AWD is drastically different from each other. Its mechanically impossible for the 2019 Lexus ES to handle as good as a Lexus GS or BMW 5 Series because of the way the Lexus ES is set up. Now don't take this the wrong way - I'm not saying the Lexus ES don't handle good. It handles well for what it is - a luxury sedan. But in no way its a "sporty" luxury sedan. And that's fine - it doesn't have to handle like the GS, 5, E and A6 because it'll do great without handling like them. I'm not sure why people want the ES to be those cars when its never intended to be those cars.

@Sakura Cars do not have to be the same to compete for the same target customer. 1 Series is RWD and competes against FWD A Class. But you start sounding like a broken record. Nobody on here disputes the fact that the ES is not the same as the GS or the German rivals you mention, but they nonetheless compete with each other. If the RWD is so important, why did Lexus sell (in Europe) only 12K units in 6 years?


The ES the same size as the A6 in every measure. The new S6 gets only turbo V6.

All very I there's ting and pretty positive overall - so far so good.
Have been watching Tesla road tests on you tube - pretty impressive looks like the future what is Lexus planning so as not to be left behind? The Tesla is good looking , apparently virtually silent and extremely swift. Impressive despite various negative reports I have read, if they get this car fully sorted they are going to take a chunk of customers.

Levi

@Sakura Cars do not have to be the same to compete for the same target customer. 1 Series is RWD and competes against FWD A Class. But you start sounding like a broken record. Nobody on here disputes the fact that the ES is not the same as the GS or the German rivals you mention, but they nonetheless compete with each other. If the RWD is so important, why did Lexus sell (in Europe) only 12K units in 6 years?


The ES the same size as the A6 in every measure. The new S6 gets only turbo V6.

I have to agree, competition is not defined by the car specs or drive train but more by the customer base. I am currently in the market and my choices are the 2019 ES F-Sport or the Audi A6. I am sure i'm not alone in this thinking. Your argument seems to focus too much on specs and pricing and totally ignores the main target of selling cars, the buyer. A buyer who wants a larger car would not even consider the A4, C-Class or 3 series. I know I wouldn't. If I was in the market for a car that size I would look at the IS. As many have pointed out the ES sits in the middle of those two segments and as such competes in some fashion with both segments depending on what you are looking for.

Levi

@Sakura Cars do not have to be the same to compete for the same target customer. 1 Series is RWD and competes against FWD A Class. But you start sounding like a broken record. Nobody on here disputes the fact that the ES is not the same as the GS or the German rivals you mention, but they nonetheless compete with each other. If the RWD is so important, why did Lexus sell (in Europe) only 12K units in 6 years?

The ES the same size as the A6 in every measure. The new S6 gets only turbo V6.

If I'm a broken record, then everyone else that has been debating with me on this opinion is too. We are all just going back and fourth so how is it that I'm the only broken record? Don't get hostile.

I never said cars has to be in the same segment to target the same customer. Customers have liquidity - they can buy whatever they want. The point was that the Lexus ES doesn't compete against the A6, 5 and E.
Secondly - like I mentioned before. Cars within a segment have to be comparable on multiple departments to be in the same segment together. RWD or FWD alone - doesn't matter - its how the FWD drives or RWD drives. IE: The Civic Type R (FWD) competes with STi and Golf R.
Similarity - the 1 Series RWD (which will be FWD in 2019) competes with the A-Class likely due to its ability that they both share good driving dynamics and other factors. If - the Lexus ES had a longitudinal FWD layout - I would say it definitely competes with the A6, 5, and E. But because it has a transverse FWD layout with MacPherson suspensions that aren't reworked, it'll just never feel like a A6, 5, or E. To add further evidence - the Lexus ES in Europe is only the hybrid model with the CVT. This is not a recipe to dethrone the 5 Series or E-Class in Europe.

Actually - people did. Spwolf believes that the ES competes with the A6, 5 and E. And that's what we were talking about.

To understand why the Lexus GS didn't sell well in Europe, you have to understand the European market. No Japanese brand does well in Europe and this is why no Japanese brand really targets Europe heavily. There is a reason why the new Lexus ES is created for the Chinese market because the USA and Chinese market is the biggest market right now. There is a reason why only 1 version (hybrid) of the Lexus ES is selling in Europe. If Lexus was gunning for the 5 and E they would have probably introduced more ES models to the European market. A Hybrid ES with a CVT isn't going to dethrone the 5 Series or E-Class sales. Toyota knows this - this is why they aren't really pushing it. Toyota likely want the ES in Europe to just fill a GS void temporarily; Toyota released a statement they canceled the GS in Europe due to emissions - not sales. Meaning - the GS can come back to Europe once they figure out a more efficient engine that can sustain with Europe's future emission laws.
The 5 Series and E-Class are on home territory. The 5 Series and E-Class are almost impossible to beat in Europe; just like how Hyundai and KIA are impossible to beat in Korea.

Sakura

To understand why the Lexus GS didn't sell well in Europe, you have to understand the European market. No Japanese brand does well in Europe and this is why no Japanese brand really targets Europe heavily.

I am sorry if I came through as hostile, that was not my intention.


That is again a chicken or egg dilema. And yet, Japanese brands do quite well in Europe. It would be more accurate to say Japanese Premium brands do not do well in Europe, Europe has even no Acura. To sell with a markup you need a brand more than a product. I know you mention Audi as Premium, but looking at SUV/CUVs for example, a Q7 is in no quantifiable way better than a Touareg, they are exactly the same, yet it deamed a worse value because of the VW badge. So imagine how hard it is for any foreign brand, including Cadillac or Maserati.

Sakura

To understand why the Lexus GS didn't sell well in Europe, you have to understand the European market. No Japanese brand does well in Europe and this is why no Japanese brand really targets Europe heavily.

Do you know anything about European market at all? I mean I worked for Toyota in Europe for 9 years, but please tell me that Japanese brands do not do well in Europe, with Toyota going over 1 million units in 2017.

But hey, please let me know about why Japanese brands dont do well in Europe. I am all ears.

Levi

I am sorry if I came through as hostile, that was not my intention.


That is again a chicken or egg dilema. And yet, Japanese brands do quite well in Europe. It would be more accurate to say Japanese Premium brands do not do well in Europe, Europe has even no Acura. To sell with a markup you need a brand more than a product. I know you mention Audi as Premium, but looking at SUV/CUVs for example, a Q7 is in no quantifiable way better than a Touareg, they are exactly the same, yet it deamed a worse value because of the VW badge. So imagine how hard it is for any foreign brand, including Cadillac or Maserati.

Yes. Typo on my part. I meant Japanese Premium Brands do not do well in Europe.***

Definitely true. Audi and VW has a lot of cross platform vehicles. However - Audi carries enough badge prestige for people to turn a blind eye. That or - people just simply doesn't know because Audi markets themselves pretty well away from VW. This is one of things I have against Toyota - they don't seem to market or distance the Lexus brand that well away from their Toyota brand. One of the biggest problems with the ES, among car enthusiasts, is that it will always be a Camry/Avalon re-skin.
I think one way for Toyota to separate the Lexus ES from the Avalon is the feature listings. I would like to see the Lexus ES introduce the nice stuff - not the Avalon. I feel the Avalon's sequential turn signals should be Lexus exclusive and introduced on the ES. That would have hyped the ES and further separated the Avalon and ES badging. But Toyota decided to give those lights to the Avalon....

spwolf

Do you know anything about European market at all? I mean I worked for Toyota in Europe for 9 years, but please tell me that Japanese brands do not do well in Europe, with Toyota going over 1 million units in 2017.

But hey, please let me know about why Japanese brands dont do well in Europe. I am all ears.

As stated above - I meant the Japanese luxury cars - not Japanese brand as a whole. It was a honest mistake and typo. You don't need to get hostile or aggressive towards me. This is just a car forum and we all have a friendly chat - lets not make this a flame war.

Sakura

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Actually - people did. Spwolf believes that the ES competes with the A6, 5 and E. And that's what we were talking about.

Toyota released a statement they canceled the GS in Europe due to emissions - not sales.

Yes, it will compete against the bottom end (base trim) A6, 5 and E-class which are majority of sales. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but E-class starts at 40,000 Euros over there while previous gen Audi A6 started under forty. That's still entry luxury price range. Lexus GS just couldn't cover that low end spectrum at all. GS was able to compete in mid to high tier of mid size sedans, it's starting price was almost 10,000 more than A6 or bit less than 8 grand more when compared to entry E-class. Standard equipment don't mean squat for buyers over there, they are pretty much happy driving that 2018 E-class with halogen projector headlights (I think that's what comes standard before two LED mutlibeam options) as long as they can save money on purchase and fuel. Lexus ES will compete with German base trim options a lot easier.

When it comes to emissions that might be true for the V8 and V6 hybrid (?) but the I4 hybrid is exact same thing that new ES will have so that doesn't make sense.

And here is halogen projector on new E

mediumhot

Yes, it will compete against the bottom end (base trim) A6, 5 and E-class which are majority of sales. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but E-class starts at 40,000 Euros over there while previous gen Audi A6 started under forty. That's still entry luxury price range. Lexus GS just couldn't cover that low end spectrum at all. GS was able to compete in mid to high tier of mid size sedans, it's starting price was almost 10,000 more than A6 or bit less than 8 grand more when compared to entry E-class. Standard equipment don't mean squat for buyers over there, they are pretty much happy driving that 2018 E-class with halogen projector headlights (I think that's what comes standard before two LED mutlibeam options) as long as they can save money on purchase and fuel. Lexus ES will compete with German base trim options a lot easier.

When it comes to emissions that might be true for the V8 and V6 hybrid (?) but the I4 hybrid is exact same thing that new ES will have so that doesn't make sense.

And here is halogen projector on new E

Nice post. Most Americans are also unaware that the German luxury brands sell a TON of fleet in this class, thus taxi's and company cars etc in Europe..i doubt Lexus can get any of that sans a hybrid model.

mediumhot

Yes, it will compete against the bottom end (base trim) A6, 5 and E-class which are majority of sales. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but E-class starts at 40,000 Euros over there while previous gen Audi A6 started under forty. That's still entry luxury price range. Lexus GS just couldn't cover that low end spectrum at all. GS was able to compete in mid to high tier of mid size sedans, it's starting price was almost 10,000 more than A6 or bit less than 8 grand more when compared to entry E-class. Standard equipment don't mean squat for buyers over there, they are pretty much happy driving that 2018 E-class with halogen projector headlights (I think that's what comes standard before two LED mutlibeam options) as long as they can save money on purchase and fuel. Lexus ES will compete with German base trim options a lot easier.

When it comes to emissions that might be true for the V8 and V6 hybrid (?) but the I4 hybrid is exact same thing that new ES will have so that doesn't make sense.

And here is halogen projector on new E

Not only that, but those GS300h "Business" models were sparsely equipped and with cloth seats, very un-Lexus, so people did not want to buy them for 47k that they were priced at.

While Germans have base E/A6/5 series, they also have special value models that add nav, leather, led to the base model for minimal fee, so the car at least feels luxury enough...

All this reminded me of new 1 series sedan review by Autocar... it is FWD econobox now and Autocar claimed that it was actually sportier than old RWD 1 series.

spwolf

Not only that, but those GS300h "Business" models were sparsely equipped and with cloth seats, very un-Lexus, so people did not want to buy them for 47k that they were priced at.

Wow, I thought the cloth seats in chinese domestic market CT/IS are bad enough.