Photo Gallery: The 2019 Lexus ES 300h in Four Exterior Colors

Sakura

The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.

Those are valid criticisms of the older versions of Lexus' 2IS. We should note, however, that the numerous suspension, steering and VDIM tweaks and improvements made for the 2011 2IS made a world of difference. A friend had a 2006 IS 350 with the Sport package, and after I got my 2011 IS 350 F Sport tried them back-to-back. It was an eye-opener, and yet another example of Lexus kaizen, or continuous improvement.

Ok, now back to ES...

Sakura

The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.

Those are valid criticisms of the older versions of Lexus' 2IS. We should note, however, that the numerous suspension, steering and VDIM tweaks and improvements made for the 2011 2IS made a world of difference. A friend had a 2006 IS 350 with the Sport package, and after I got my 2011 IS 350 F Sport tried them back-to-back. It was an eye-opener, and yet another example of Lexus kaizen, or continuous improvement.

Ok, now back to ES...

Levi

But what you say basically confirms that good handling is not just a matter of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD.

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Levi

But what you say basically confirms that good handling is not just a matter of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD.

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Levi

But what you say basically confirms that good handling is not just a matter of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD.

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Like every other "amazing" FWD.

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Like every other "amazing" FWD.

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

Like every other "amazing" FWD.

Sakura

Like Krew said, Power Trunk, Power Shade, and Leather seems to be the biggest difference we know so far. I think we might have to wait for the actual build simulation to figure out what's really missing. I'm expecting quite a bit. The 3G 2014 Lexus IS F-Sport was missing quite a bit of features compared to its non F-Sport counter-part. I'll bet that later into the model years - the Lexus ES F-Sport might offer more luxurious features.

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

Sakura

Like Krew said, Power Trunk, Power Shade, and Leather seems to be the biggest difference we know so far. I think we might have to wait for the actual build simulation to figure out what's really missing. I'm expecting quite a bit. The 3G 2014 Lexus IS F-Sport was missing quite a bit of features compared to its non F-Sport counter-part. I'll bet that later into the model years - the Lexus ES F-Sport might offer more luxurious features.

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

Sakura

Like Krew said, Power Trunk, Power Shade, and Leather seems to be the biggest difference we know so far. I think we might have to wait for the actual build simulation to figure out what's really missing. I'm expecting quite a bit. The 3G 2014 Lexus IS F-Sport was missing quite a bit of features compared to its non F-Sport counter-part. I'll bet that later into the model years - the Lexus ES F-Sport might offer more luxurious features.

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

Sakura

FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

lsu5508

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

I do not believe dealerships get "demo" cars before official production arrival. The online build simulation will be available before the vehicle hits dealers though.

If you are pre-ordering or ordering a car from the dealer, you'll be given a list of options that you are able to select from. That shouldn't be a problem.

spwolf

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

Hold up. Take a step back - I get it, you like the Lexus ES. But I didn't say Audi and VW can handle better than the Lexus ES. You are putting words in my mouth for this bit.

Also - where did I say the Lexus ES can't handle well? I clearly stated the 2019 Lexus ES handles well and better than the predecessors.
What I said:

The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

What I'm trying to say as well is: while the Lexus ES handles better, its still not a good handling FWD car like the Civic Type R. What I said was: The 2019 Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

lsu5508

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

I do not believe dealerships get "demo" cars before official production arrival. The online build simulation will be available before the vehicle hits dealers though.

If you are pre-ordering or ordering a car from the dealer, you'll be given a list of options that you are able to select from. That shouldn't be a problem.

spwolf

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

Hold up. Take a step back - I get it, you like the Lexus ES. But I didn't say Audi and VW can handle better than the Lexus ES. You are putting words in my mouth for this bit.

Also - where did I say the Lexus ES can't handle well? I clearly stated the 2019 Lexus ES handles well and better than the predecessors.
What I said:

The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

What I'm trying to say as well is: while the Lexus ES handles better, its still not a good handling FWD car like the Civic Type R. What I said was: The 2019 Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

lsu5508

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

I do not believe dealerships get "demo" cars before official production arrival. The online build simulation will be available before the vehicle hits dealers though.

If you are pre-ordering or ordering a car from the dealer, you'll be given a list of options that you are able to select from. That shouldn't be a problem.

spwolf

So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.

Hold up. Take a step back - I get it, you like the Lexus ES. But I didn't say Audi and VW can handle better than the Lexus ES. You are putting words in my mouth for this bit.

Also - where did I say the Lexus ES can't handle well? I clearly stated the 2019 Lexus ES handles well and better than the predecessors.
What I said:

The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

What I'm trying to say as well is: while the Lexus ES handles better, its still not a good handling FWD car like the Civic Type R. What I said was: The 2019 Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

The Volvo S90/V90 competes against the three German. It has up to more than 400 PS from its transverse 2.0l I4. Audi A4 is probably going FWD next generation. I would not be surprised if too in a generation. With AWD now the standard, bar a for a few enthusiasts, and most flagships going electric, there is little incentive for RWD. Heavy car, no manual, RWD is not worthy.

The Volvo S90/V90 competes against the three German. It has up to more than 400 PS from its transverse 2.0l I4. Audi A4 is probably going FWD next generation. I would not be surprised if too in a generation. With AWD now the standard, bar a for a few enthusiasts, and most flagships going electric, there is little incentive for RWD. Heavy car, no manual, RWD is not worthy.

The Volvo S90/V90 competes against the three German. It has up to more than 400 PS from its transverse 2.0l I4. Audi A4 is probably going FWD next generation. I would not be surprised if too in a generation. With AWD now the standard, bar a for a few enthusiasts, and most flagships going electric, there is little incentive for RWD. Heavy car, no manual, RWD is not worthy.

Sakura

Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

No, those arguments do not hold.

1. For car to handle well it does not have to handle as well as Type R. None of the competition handles like Type R. Using some crazy FWD hatch is just an easy way to disqualify ES. Does A6 2.0tdi handle like Type R?
2. I dont care what is on paper, and it is not even on paper since all the mags said that handling is fine. This "paper" is only in your head because of your preconceived opinions of ES.
3. Why would Lexus ES only compete vs Buick and Acura TLX? Those cars do not exist in Europe or China or Japan. All European mags said it competes vs 5/E/A6, and all the reviews are quite favorable with handling being fine, suspension being fine, and interior praised for quality and construction, all vs competition which is A6/5/E.
4. And it is their competition. This is what people will compare it to, even in the US. And of course in the rest of the world, those competition you mention does not exist. When they walk to the Lexus dealership, they will certainly compare it to those cars, no matter where in the world they are.

Yes, you are biased against Lexus ES, despite all the reviews telling you not to be. I am not sure what does that have to do with being Toyota shareholder, at the time I worked for Toyota, we invested millions into it, and does not make me more qualified than other drivers/buyers of the brand.

I cant wait for you to try out ES and let us know your opinion. I am sure Krew also had preconceived opinions of what ES is.

Sakura

Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

No, those arguments do not hold.

1. For car to handle well it does not have to handle as well as Type R. None of the competition handles like Type R. Using some crazy FWD hatch is just an easy way to disqualify ES. Does A6 2.0tdi handle like Type R?
2. I dont care what is on paper, and it is not even on paper since all the mags said that handling is fine. This "paper" is only in your head because of your preconceived opinions of ES.
3. Why would Lexus ES only compete vs Buick and Acura TLX? Those cars do not exist in Europe or China or Japan. All European mags said it competes vs 5/E/A6, and all the reviews are quite favorable with handling being fine, suspension being fine, and interior praised for quality and construction, all vs competition which is A6/5/E.
4. And it is their competition. This is what people will compare it to, even in the US. And of course in the rest of the world, those competition you mention does not exist. When they walk to the Lexus dealership, they will certainly compare it to those cars, no matter where in the world they are.

Yes, you are biased against Lexus ES, despite all the reviews telling you not to be. I am not sure what does that have to do with being Toyota shareholder, at the time I worked for Toyota, we invested millions into it, and does not make me more qualified than other drivers/buyers of the brand.

I cant wait for you to try out ES and let us know your opinion. I am sure Krew also had preconceived opinions of what ES is.

Sakura

Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.

No, those arguments do not hold.

1. For car to handle well it does not have to handle as well as Type R. None of the competition handles like Type R. Using some crazy FWD hatch is just an easy way to disqualify ES. Does A6 2.0tdi handle like Type R?
2. I dont care what is on paper, and it is not even on paper since all the mags said that handling is fine. This "paper" is only in your head because of your preconceived opinions of ES.
3. Why would Lexus ES only compete vs Buick and Acura TLX? Those cars do not exist in Europe or China or Japan. All European mags said it competes vs 5/E/A6, and all the reviews are quite favorable with handling being fine, suspension being fine, and interior praised for quality and construction, all vs competition which is A6/5/E.
4. And it is their competition. This is what people will compare it to, even in the US. And of course in the rest of the world, those competition you mention does not exist. When they walk to the Lexus dealership, they will certainly compare it to those cars, no matter where in the world they are.

Yes, you are biased against Lexus ES, despite all the reviews telling you not to be. I am not sure what does that have to do with being Toyota shareholder, at the time I worked for Toyota, we invested millions into it, and does not make me more qualified than other drivers/buyers of the brand.

I cant wait for you to try out ES and let us know your opinion. I am sure Krew also had preconceived opinions of what ES is.

krew

Photo Gallery: The 2019 Lexus ES 300h in Four Exterior Colors

Matador Red Mica, Moonbeam Beige Metallic, Caviar, and Nightfall Mica.

View the original article post

krew

Photo Gallery: The 2019 Lexus ES 300h in Four Exterior Colors

Matador Red Mica, Moonbeam Beige Metallic, Caviar, and Nightfall Mica.

View the original article post

krew

Photo Gallery: The 2019 Lexus ES 300h in Four Exterior Colors

Matador Red Mica, Moonbeam Beige Metallic, Caviar, and Nightfall Mica.

View the original article post

lsu5508

When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?

Do people pay MSRP when you order a car at Lexus? If so it seems bit crazy to me to pay full price when its not too difficult to get at least 10% off MSRP with a bit of negotiating.

spwolf

No, those arguments do not hold.

1. For car to handle well it does not have to handle as well as Type R. None of the competition handles like Type R. Using some crazy FWD hatch is just an easy way to disqualify ES. Does A6 2.0tdi handle like Type R?
2. I dont care what is on paper, and it is not even on paper since all the mags said that handling is fine. This "paper" is only in your head because of your preconceived opinions of ES.
3. Why would Lexus ES only compete vs Buick and Acura TLX? Those cars do not exist in Europe or China or Japan. All European mags said it competes vs 5/E/A6, and all the reviews are quite favorable with handling being fine, suspension being fine, and interior praised for quality and construction, all vs competition which is A6/5/E.
4. And it is their competition. This is what people will compare it to, even in the US. And of course in the rest of the world, those competition you mention does not exist. When they walk to the Lexus dealership, they will certainly compare it to those cars, no matter where in the world they are.

Yes, you are biased against Lexus ES, despite all the reviews telling you not to be. I am not sure what does that have to do with being Toyota shareholder, at the time I worked for Toyota, we invested millions into it, and does not make me more qualified than other drivers/buyers of the brand.

I cant wait for you to try out ES and let us know your opinion. I am sure Krew also had preconceived opinions of what ES is.

Actually - they do.

1) I never said a car has to handle like a Civic Type R to be considered handling well. You are putting words in my mouth, again.
I literally said - the Lexus ES handles well - just not as good as the Civic Type R. I never said the Lexus ES has to handle like the Civic Type R to be considered as handling well.

The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

Lets refer back:

I believe there is nothing wrong with my statement. It obviously better than before but its obviously not better than say a Civic Type R or STi is where I'm getting at. Hence - I said, "handling-king". Obviously the Lexus ES wasn't built for that and there is nothing wrong with that.

As you can see - in the part I just bold and underlined - I stated there is nothing wrong with that. This literally means - the Lexus ES doesn't have to handle like a Civic Type R or STi to be considered good in its own right.
What I'm trying to say here is: the narrative you are pushing make it sounds like you think the Lexus ES is the next coming of the Toyota Supra and it handles like a track car.

No the A6 FWD doesn't handle like the Type R. Its not suppose to. Just like how the Lexus ES isn't suppose to. All I'm saying is - the Lexus ES don't handle like the Type R.

2) The "paper" isn't in my head. The fact is transverse FWD cars don't handle as well as longitudinal placed FWD cars and RWD cars unless the said FWD is set up to, like the Civic Type R. The Lexus ES is not a "sporty" car and its not set up to handle like one.
But that doesn't mean it don't handle well or "fine" as you put it. I fully agree it handles good for what it is. But it doesn't handle like a RWD sporty car and I'm not sure why you think it does.

3) The Buick sells in China. Buick is insanely popular in China. Buick and Audi are two most popular brands in China. Buick does sell in Japan but sales volume are low. Buick and Opel sell together in Europe. The Lexus ES always been compared to the the Buick brand - especially the Buick the LaCrosse. I think the Lexus ES doesn't compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class because:
1] Transverse FWD compared to Longitudinal FWD and RWD.
2] Driving dynamics. Sure - it handles better and well for what it is but it won't handle as well as the A6, 5, or E.
3] Not a "sporty" full-size luxury sedan.
4] The Lexus ES price is not even priced near them, which makes the A6, 5 Series and E-Class are a segment higher up.

What does being a Toyota shareholder have to do with anything? Uhhh... The Lexus ES is made, like many of the other Toyota products, to allow us shareholders to earn money. This is why the Lexus ES is the way it is. Its one of Toyota's cash cow. This is why the Lexus GS got axed and not the ES. The GS is the better car but the ES is the money maker.

How am I bias when I also clearly stated the Lexus ES handles well, better than before, its luxurious, comfortable, reliable, and it'll be a great seller.
So you think I'm bias against the Lexus ES because:
I said it doesn't handle like a Civic Type R (when I clearly stated its not suppose) - I was doing a counter-argument against your narrative that its an insanely good handling vehicle.
When I said it doesn't compete with the A6, 5, or E? It clearly doesn't compete with the A6, 5, or E. The Lexus ES is not the same type of vehicle as the A6, 5, or E.
??
^^ These criticism doesn't make me bias. Its legit points. I think you are the one here that is bias. (I know about your Pro-Lexus ES posts on CL too.)

This will be my last post/reply to because you seem not be able to hold a conversation without getting passively-aggressive. Its just a car, bro.

reposado

Do people pay MSRP when you order a car at Lexus? If so it seems bit crazy to me to pay full price when its not too difficult to get at least 10% off MSRP with a bit of negotiating.

No. You don't pay MSRP. You allowed to talk about the price you would like to pay at before the ordering process. Usually - some dealers would give you even an addition slight discount because you are saving them extra money on insuring the vehicle and keeping it on their lot.

At Lexus dealers - you should get on average of 12%-14% off MSRP with tax regardless if the car is a new release or not. Just don't expect good lease deals when its newly released.

My advice is to wait until the second model year to buy the Lexus ES if you want one. This allows time for the better lease deals to come in and for Toyota to work on the first model year issues. Majority of cars experience issues on their first model year so quite a bit of people tend to hold off on buying first model years.

Sakura

No. You don't pay MSRP. You allowed to talk about the price you would like to pay at before the ordering process. Usually - some dealers would give you even an addition slight discount because you are saving them extra money on insuring the vehicle and keeping it on their lot.

At Lexus dealers - you should get on average of 12%-14% off MSRP with tax regardless if the car is a new release or not. Just don't expect good lease deals when its newly released.

My advice is to wait until the second model year to buy the Lexus ES if you want one. This allows time for the better lease deals to come in and for Toyota to work on the first model year issues. Majority of cars experience issues on their first model year so quite a bit of people tend to hold off on buying first model years.

Just out of curiosity how major are the typical first year bugs? My current lease was up last month so I extended 6 months so i'm not going to have the luxury of waiting an additional year. I will be buying the F-sport most probably depending on options and price so lease deals are not a huge concern to me.