Lexus Trademarks LM 350 & LM 300h Nameplates in USA

bogglo

Just another taught. The Lexus mid-engine might make sense after all. the Le Mans car 2.4l hybrid system could be the LM300H. And maybe the MR2 is not returning as a Toyota but instead as a Lexus. If they give it enough luxury treatment and a mid engine set up I think it deserves the "L" badge.

LM vs Porsche mid engine coupe/new corvette mid engine car
LCF VS Merc GTR/Nissan GTR
RCF vs M4

The last time we heard about the MR2 it was made into this little beast with 3.5L V6 AWD hybrid:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/new-mr2-toyota-grmn-sports-hybrid-concept-ii-to-hit-the-ring-89475/



Let's hope (more like wish) Lexus gives the Boxster/Cayman a run for their money.

Why some believe a Lexus minivan must be based on the Sienna? Why build it in a country that's not the main market? It is much, much more likely it will be based on the Alphard. And why some believe they will sell a Lexus minivan in US (and fail) just because of a trademark? Ever heard of defensive trademarking?

ssun30

Why some believe a Lexus minivan must be based on the Sienna? Why build it in a country that's not the main market? It is much, much more likely it will be based on the Alphard. And why some believe they will sell a Lexus minivan in US (and fail) just because of a trademark? Ever heard of defensive trademarking?

By your logic we should see trademarks of the Lexus GX registered everywhere in the world just to be "defensive". But the reality is that you'll find the GX trademark registered only in North America, where it's sold.

I believe that if the LM is to actually go on sale, it will be sold where its trademark is registered, although not necessarily with all the engine variations that are registered.

ydooby

By your logic we should see trademarks of the Lexus GX registered everywhere in the world just to be "defensive". But the reality is that you'll find the GX trademark registered only in North America, where it's sold.

I believe that if the LM is to actually go on sale, it will be sold where its trademark is registered, although not necessarily with all the engine variations that are registered.

I don't see how you concluded my logic in the way you described.

Anyway I don't find it necessary to read too much into this message, knowing how secretive Lexus has always been. After all nothing happened to the TX.

ssun30

I don't see how you concluded my logic in the way you described.

Anyway I don't find it necessary to read too much into this message, knowing how secretive Lexus has always been. After all nothing happened to the TX.

The difference with the TX is that Lexus never bothered to register the TX with any specific engine displacement numbers, so it was a lot less committal than the LM350 and LM300h are this time.

And my prior point above is that Lexus never registers a trademark for a production vehicle in a market that it isn't sold. So if Lexus registers the LM in the US and the LM does end up going into production, then the US will be one of the markets where the LM is sold. And therefore the likelihood of the LM being a Lexus Alphard is extremely low IMHO.

But does a van deserve the 'L' letter? L is supposed to be a flagship, and thus somehow exclusive. Like ES < LS, GX < LX, and < LQ because CUV/SUV. And even if vans have their role, I do not see them being flagships in anyway, they are more luxury utility vehicles, thinking of the V Class. A Lexus pickup would also be under powered with such engines.

On the other hand, I like the idea, and it is plausible for the MR2 to become a Lexus, for the simple reason that it is tough to sell sportscars without badge.

For those of you who think that LQ relates to any Lexus product, I would strongly advise thinking twice before jumping to conclusions. I posted a long spiel some time ago explaining Toyota's practice of applying for trademarks. Just because something looks vaguely suspicious, does not mean that it necessarily points to any exciting new product. Toyota has not trademarked just the letters for any Lexus lines since quite a a while ago. Even the "CT' mark from 2014 is dead. The most recent brand new model, the UX, was never trademarked as just "UX". "UX200" and "UX250h" are trademarked.

Toyota is a business of making, marketing and selling cars. It also provides financial services to customers. Any trademark can be used for any range of purposes within the Toyota Corporation.

Yes, while "LQ" may possibly eventuate as a Lexus model, I dare say it is very unlikely. And if I'm wrong in the future, remind me, and I'll admit my error. For now though, "LM" does not, did not, has not, and will not, strike me.

LM350 and LM300h, though, is very interesting. Many you fellow fans out there think it could be a Minivan/Multipurpose Vehicle. I for one, cannot put forward a better suggestion other than "Mover" (as in Luxury Mover"). I was also thinking whether (if it does turn out to be a minivan) it could be based on the Toyota Alphard and/or Sienna.

For your interest, "LM350" and "LM300h" have been registered in USA and the Philippines. View attachment 2886 View attachment 2887

mwyf

For those of you who think that LQ relates to any Lexus product, I would strongly advise thinking twice before jumping to conclusions. I posted a long spiel some time ago explaining Toyota's practice of applying for trademarks. Just because something looks vaguely suspicious, does not mean that it necessarily points to any exciting new product. Toyota has not trademarked just the letters for any Lexus lines since quite a a while ago. Even the "CT' mark from 2014 is dead. The most recent brand new model, the UX, was never trademarked as just "UX". "UX200" and "UX250h" are trademarked.

Toyota is a business of making, marketing and selling cars. It also provides financial services to customers. Any trademark can be used for any range of purposes within the Toyota Corporation.

Yes, while "LQ" may possibly eventuate as a Lexus model, I dare say it is very unlikely. And if I'm wrong in the future, remind me, and I'll admit my error. For now though, "LM" does not, did not, has not, and will not, strike me.

Good point. It just crossed my mind that the LQ trademark was filed without any specific displacement numbers either, just like the TX. This means that the name LQ was most likely temporary and that the LM350 and the LM300h are the actual final model names of the production version of the LF-1. I think the name LQ was dropped simply because Infiniti has a stranglehold on the letter Q lol.

By my count, here's a list of the Lexus-centric trademarks that Toyota has filed in the U.S. that have died unused (I may have missed some). Note that they are a mix of letters-only and letters-plus-numbers badges.

VX
JX
TX
CT 300h
CT 400h
IS 300C (this was used in a number of Asia and Middle East markets, however)
RX 440h
LX 520
LX 550
LX 590
LX 600
JX 470

And, naturally, the jury's still out on the newest Lexus-apparent trademarks that have yet to see a production application (UX 250, LQ, LM 300h and LM 350).

mwyf

For those of you who think that LQ relates to any Lexus product, I would strongly advise thinking twice before jumping to conclusions. I posted a long spiel some time ago explaining Toyota's practice of applying for trademarks. Just because something looks vaguely suspicious, does not mean that it necessarily points to any exciting new product. Toyota has not trademarked just the letters for any Lexus lines since quite a a while ago. Even the "CT' mark from 2014 is dead. The most recent brand new model, the UX, was never trademarked as just "UX". "UX200" and "UX250h" are trademarked.

Thanks for making this point... I almost skipped to the end of the thread to make a similar post, but am glad I read through.

Just a model designation means little, historically. If we had gotten LQ 500 and LQ500h, I'd have been fairly certain that LQ = LF-1 Limitless. However, these LM trademarks with an associated number/displacement are much more believable. With that said, trademarking LM350 and LM300h in USA makes little sense to me for a flagship car... I'd believe those numbers if these were registered somewhere in Europe, perhaps.

So, not sure what to make of this overall.

LM - "L" - always denotes flagship for Lexus.

300h/350 are the bottom/middle part of Lexus' North American lineup in terms of displacement. Aka not a flagship, at least in terms of displacement/power.

I'm stumped.

Any one thought of a completely autonomous-centric design? Something like the Mercedes autonomous driving concept that emphasis on providing transport other than driving pleasure. The name could stand for Lexury mobility and the moderate displacement can be explained because it is simply not designed for sporty feeling but smooth transportation.

amoschen7

Any one thought of a completely autonomous-centric design? Something like the Mercedes autonomous driving concept that emphasis on providing transport other than driving pleasure. The name could stand for Lexury mobility and the moderate displacement can be explained because it is simply not designed for sporty feeling but smooth transportation.

I don't think the 300+hp 3.5L V6 is underpowered for most people. It's certainly enough to provide decent driving pleasure. The F version can come later for those hungry for more power.

From what we can see Toyota/Lexus is so far quite a bit behind the curve in autonomous driving tech, so there's little reason to think that Lexus would trademark a dedicated autonomous model at such an early stage.

If the ML-Class is anything to go by, the letter "M" in LM should stand for multipurpose IMHO.

ydooby

I don't think the 300+hp 3.5L V6 is underpowered for most people. It's certainly enough to provide decent driving pleasure. The F version can come later for those hungry for more power.

Agreed. The 300+HP model will be enough for the average consumer. The average consumer doesn't care or need the power. A good example of this is the SUV market.
Currently - the Lexus NX and RX sells insanely well compared to the X3, X5, GLC and etc... The German SUV models are pretty quick, quicker than Lexus SUVs. However - Lexus pulls more sales because the selling point of an SUV isn't power. Majority of SUV owners just want something reliable for their family or kids.

Whatever this LM is - Toyota is probably targeting a specific group of people. Its likely it'll sell well without a high-powered model.

Have to say, this discussion is great. This type of mystery trademark is one of my favorite things about writing about Lexus.

As others have said, the L designation and the engine codes make no sense to me. I really like the idea of a van based on the Alphard -- have really strong feelings about the Vellfire variant.

View attachment 2888

Seriously, sign me up.

View attachment 2889

:heart_eyes:

krew

View attachment 2888

Who wants to Photoshop the LX front end on that Vellfire?

Believe it or not, someone in Japan already did it back in 2013, with the exact title of... wait for it........... "Lexus LM350" (again this was back in 2013)!!! Check it out.
https://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=34739556
View attachment 2890

For those who doubt the flagship credentials of a minivan, the Alphard/Vellfire twins are Toyota's flagship in Japan after the Century. Also in China and Hong Kong it is sold at S-Class prices.

ssun30

For those who doubt the flagship credentials of a minivan, the Alphard/Vellfire twins are Toyota's flagship in Japan after the Century. Also in China and Hong Kong it is sold at S-Class prices.

Of course it isn't a problem in Asia. The problem is that the LM trademark is registered in the US, where vans simply don't project the image of luxury, let alone a flagship luxury vehicle.

ydooby

The problem is certainly not in Asia, but in the US, where this LM trademark is registered, where vans simply don't project the image of luxury, let alone a flagship luxury vehicle. Lexus should keep its "L" vehicles exclusive to what people can actually recognize as flagship luxury. Forcing it against people's established perception will simply work to dilute what "L" stands for.

Agreed. The problem is the US and its perception of what "luxury" is. The problem is that Americans don't see mini-vans as a luxury status symbol.

Anyone remember the Mercedes Benz R-Class? Its pretty much a Luxury Minivan. The sales for it was horrible. It peaked sales numbers in 2006 (18K/units) and 2007 (13K/units). Before and half that - the R-Class stayed below 3K unit sales. And during its last 3 years on the market, it barely sold 50 units. It was ultimately a failure and MB canceled it.
This is proof luxury minivans aren't in demand in USA. Americans just don't see it as a luxury item.

Sakura

Agreed. The problem is the US and its perception of what "luxury" is. The problem is that Americans don't see mini-vans as a luxury status symbol.

Anyone remember the Mercedes Benz R-Class? Its pretty much a Luxury Minivan. The sales for it was horrible. It peaked sales numbers in 2006 (18K/units) and 2007 (13K/units). Before and half that - the R-Class stayed below 3K unit sales. And during its last 3 years on the market, it barely sold 50 units. It was ultimately a failure and MB canceled it.

This is proof luxury minivans aren't in demand in USA. Americans just don't see it as a luxury item. And - logically speaking - why would anyone pay more for a MB minivan when you can get a cheaper Japanese minivan for less.

R Class was sold longer in China (Asia?) is I recall correctly.

Again, why do you guys insist a Luxury Minivan LM would sell in significant numbers in USA to the point it causes discomfort among American buyers? We don't even know if it will be sold in USA in the first place. Are you afraid somehow a Lexus minivan will taint the brand's image?

bogglo

Just another taught. The Lexus mid-engine might make sense after all. the Le Mans car 2.4l hybrid system could be the LM300H. And maybe the MR2 is not returning as a Toyota but instead as a Lexus. If they give it enough luxury treatment and a mid engine set up I think it deserves the "L" badge.

LM vs Porsche mid engine coupe/new corvette mid engine car
LCF VS Merc GTR/Nissan GTR
RCF vs M4

As if you are saying that the LM is to be the Supra convertible but that is not the case as the top less Supra is the BMW Z4

I am guessing that Lexus only save letters nothing more

ydooby

I don't think the 300+hp 3.5L V6 is underpowered for most people. It's certainly enough to provide decent driving pleasure. The F version can come later for those hungry for more power.

From what we can see Toyota/Lexus is so far quite a bit behind the curve in autonomous driving tech, so there's little reason to think that Lexus would trademark a dedicated autonomous model at such an early stage.

If the ML-Class is anything to go by, the letter "M" in LM should stand for multipurpose IMHO.

Believe me Sir, I feel even my GS-F is perfect in handling it needs a little more power

ssun30

Again, why do you guys insist a Luxury Minivan LM would sell in significant numbers in USA to the point it causes discomfort among American buyers? We don't even know if it will be sold in USA in the first place. Are you afraid somehow a Lexus minivan will taint the brand's image?

I believe this is exactly the case -- there is a real stigma to minivans in North America, and a Lexus minivan has the potential to bring back old ideas about the brand as boring rebadged Toyotas.

*Begin Conjecture*

BUT I also think introducing a minivan now is worth the short-term discomfort, because 10 years from now when all vehicles have the same electric powertrain and self-driving technology, there's going to be a huge demand for a luxury people hauler with easy access and room to spare.

*End Conjecture*

ydooby

Believe it or not, someone in Japan already did it in an artwork sharing site back in 2013, with the exact title of... wait for it........... "Lexus LM350" (again this was back in 2013)!!! Check out the man who saw the future lol.
https://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=34739556
View attachment 2890

I love the Internet. 2013!

I think the seats in the Vellfire might be better than what's in the LS and LC, based on that photo. That is seriously plush and lux looking!

Levi

R Class was sold longer in China (Asia?) if I recall correctly.

Yes. Mercedes-Benz subcontracted R-Class assembly to AM General (best known for producing the original Hummer H1) for export to China from 2015 through October 2017, when it was finally discontinued.

ydooby

I don't think the 300+hp 3.5L V6 is underpowered for most people. It's certainly enough to provide decent driving pleasure. The F version can come later for those hungry for more power.

From what we can see Toyota/Lexus is so far quite a bit behind the curve in autonomous driving tech, so there's little reason to think that Lexus would trademark a dedicated autonomous model at such an early stage.

If the ML-Class is anything to go by, the letter "M" in LM should stand for multipurpose IMHO.

I would counter ur point on Lexus autonomous driving development. In fact they are leading OEMs in terms of autonomous driving technology. The project dates long back when Google offered to co-develop autonomous driving tech with Toyota. But Toyota turned them off favoring its internal team. Now they have cumulated significant mileage on their LS test bed. If you look at the patent filing related to autonomous driving, Toyota ranked #3 just after Bosch and Continental. Not having news releases doesn’t mean they are behind. Even BMW and Mercedes internal R&D are respectful for Toyota in autonomous driving when I ask about their perspective.

krew

Have to say, this discussion is great. This type of mystery trademark is one of my favorite things about writing about Lexus.

As others have said, the L designation and the engine codes make no sense to me. I really like the idea of a van based on the Alphard -- have really strong feelings about the Vellfire variant.

View attachment 2888

Seriously, sign me up.

View attachment 2889

:heart_eyes:

Who wants to Photoshop the LX front end on that Vellfire?

Talking about PS... how do u like this:

amoschen7

I would counter ur point on Lexus autonomous driving development. In fact they are leading OEMs in terms of autonomous driving technology. The project dates long back when Google offered to co-develop autonomous driving tech with Toyota. But Toyota turned them off favoring its internal team. Now they have cumulated significant mileage on their LS test bed. If you look at the patent filing related to autonomous driving, Toyota ranked #3 just after Bosch and Continental. Not having news releases doesn’t mean they are behind. Even BMW and Mercedes internal R&D are respectful for Toyota in autonomous driving when I ask about their perspective.

Not lagging, yes. Leading, no. GM already has the most competent L2 system out there and VW has a L2.5 system (which they call L3), Lexus is still at L1 where everyone else is. The race to L4 is clearly in GM/Cruise's favor.

I like LM..... fwiw....