Videos: Inside the 2019 Lexus ES & ES F SPORT

After watching the new video showing the f-sport version in pure white, I have to say, it certainly is a really desirable car. The exterior design is spot-on. However, I still stand by my opinion, that if they want a chance at success here in Europe, they'll need to introduce a more powerful hybrid powertrain.

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

After watching the new video showing the f-sport version in pure white, I have to say, it certainly is a really desirable car. The exterior design is spot-on. However, I still stand by my opinion, that if they want a chance at success here in Europe, they'll need to introduce a more powerful hybrid powertrain.

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

And yet ES350 with Camry engine and a lot less hp sold like hot cakes... so did RX... so did NX with 2.0t, such subpar engine.

Only GS has problem selling with better version of same engines?

So once again, another proof that they invested a lot of money into GS and did not get return. Unlike with ES, which got least amount of money invested into, poorer version of those already poor engines and then sells like hot cakes.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

And yet ES350 with Camry engine and a lot less hp sold like hot cakes... so did RX... so did NX with 2.0t, such subpar engine.

Only GS has problem selling with better version of same engines?

So once again, another proof that they invested a lot of money into GS and did not get return. Unlike with ES, which got least amount of money invested into, poorer version of those already poor engines and then sells like hot cakes.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

And yet ES350 with Camry engine and a lot less hp sold like hot cakes... so did RX... so did NX with 2.0t, such subpar engine.

Only GS has problem selling with better version of same engines?

So once again, another proof that they invested a lot of money into GS and did not get return. Unlike with ES, which got least amount of money invested into, poorer version of those already poor engines and then sells like hot cakes.

KOHIPEET

After watching the new video showing the f-sport version in pure white, I have to say, it certainly is a really desirable car. The exterior design is spot-on. However, I still stand by my opinion, that if they want a chance at success here in Europe, they'll need to introduce a more powerful hybrid powertrain.

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

I dont think they will do that due to the cost reasons. 450h was simply too expensive... but their future powertrain lineup certainly shows another all-new engine above 300h and below 500h.

Maybe if they can spread the cost across larger lineup, such as Highlander and RX, they can also make another "affordable" hybrid engine with more than 215hp?

KOHIPEET

After watching the new video showing the f-sport version in pure white, I have to say, it certainly is a really desirable car. The exterior design is spot-on. However, I still stand by my opinion, that if they want a chance at success here in Europe, they'll need to introduce a more powerful hybrid powertrain.

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

I dont think they will do that due to the cost reasons. 450h was simply too expensive... but their future powertrain lineup certainly shows another all-new engine above 300h and below 500h.

Maybe if they can spread the cost across larger lineup, such as Highlander and RX, they can also make another "affordable" hybrid engine with more than 215hp?

KOHIPEET

After watching the new video showing the f-sport version in pure white, I have to say, it certainly is a really desirable car. The exterior design is spot-on. However, I still stand by my opinion, that if they want a chance at success here in Europe, they'll need to introduce a more powerful hybrid powertrain.

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

I dont think they will do that due to the cost reasons. 450h was simply too expensive... but their future powertrain lineup certainly shows another all-new engine above 300h and below 500h.

Maybe if they can spread the cost across larger lineup, such as Highlander and RX, they can also make another "affordable" hybrid engine with more than 215hp?

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

So on point, thank you! There was no reason to allow the ES gradually step on the toes of larger/higher offerings generation-to-generation nor be so lazy with keeping the GS up to date. The New N cars were limited in ways, that the public saw no motivation to upgrade post refresh. Plus, new E-class and 5er surely don't help. Sales were reasonable, until facelift launched during the last 8 weeks of 2015 and 2016 a steep decline.

They are having sour grapes about the low GS sales during 2016 and throwing a fit about it, when they didn't even put in enough effort. If you cannot execute midcycle changes well and maintain relevance, then don't expect any ******g sales! They knew this and want to express manufactured outrage, then cancel it. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

As you said, the ES has come out the way it is, as late 2015 and early 2016 would be when much of the development programme was solidifying (ability to react limited). Styling was set well over 2 years ago, locked in by mid-2016.

They weren't expecting this to be sole midsizer, so likely F-Sport and expansion to other markets was always in the cards.

RichieRich

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

The GS430 has no relevance to the incumbent generation GS and discussion related to its demise. Otherwise, GS460 and GS400 would be also brought up.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

So on point, thank you! There was no reason to allow the ES gradually step on the toes of larger/higher offerings generation-to-generation nor be so lazy with keeping the GS up to date. The New N cars were limited in ways, that the public saw no motivation to upgrade post refresh. Plus, new E-class and 5er surely don't help. Sales were reasonable, until facelift launched during the last 8 weeks of 2015 and 2016 a steep decline.

They are having sour grapes about the low GS sales during 2016 and throwing a fit about it, when they didn't even put in enough effort. If you cannot execute midcycle changes well and maintain relevance, then don't expect any ******g sales! They knew this and want to express manufactured outrage, then cancel it. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

As you said, the ES has come out the way it is, as late 2015 and early 2016 would be when much of the development programme was solidifying (ability to react limited). Styling was set well over 2 years ago, locked in by mid-2016.

They weren't expecting this to be sole midsizer, so likely F-Sport and expansion to other markets was always in the cards.

RichieRich

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

The GS430 has no relevance to the incumbent generation GS and discussion related to its demise. Otherwise, GS460 and GS400 would be also brought up.

Gecko

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

So on point, thank you! There was no reason to allow the ES gradually step on the toes of larger/higher offerings generation-to-generation nor be so lazy with keeping the GS up to date. The New N cars were limited in ways, that the public saw no motivation to upgrade post refresh. Plus, new E-class and 5er surely don't help. Sales were reasonable, until facelift launched during the last 8 weeks of 2015 and 2016 a steep decline.

They are having sour grapes about the low GS sales during 2016 and throwing a fit about it, when they didn't even put in enough effort. If you cannot execute midcycle changes well and maintain relevance, then don't expect any ******g sales! They knew this and want to express manufactured outrage, then cancel it. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

As you said, the ES has come out the way it is, as late 2015 and early 2016 would be when much of the development programme was solidifying (ability to react limited). Styling was set well over 2 years ago, locked in by mid-2016.

They weren't expecting this to be sole midsizer, so likely F-Sport and expansion to other markets was always in the cards.

RichieRich

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

The GS430 has no relevance to the incumbent generation GS and discussion related to its demise. Otherwise, GS460 and GS400 would be also brought up.

First Impressions of the 2019 Lexus ES & ES F SPORT

The ES, enhanced.

View the original article post

First Impressions of the 2019 Lexus ES & ES F SPORT

The ES, enhanced.

View the original article post

First Impressions of the 2019 Lexus ES & ES F SPORT

The ES, enhanced.

View the original article post

krew

View the original article post

krew sums it up much better than I ever could :).

@krew how was interior quality, how did it feel inside? Compared to ES, IS, GS, NX, etc? Thank you.

krew

View the original article post

krew sums it up much better than I ever could :).

@krew how was interior quality, how did it feel inside? Compared to ES, IS, GS, NX, etc? Thank you.

krew

View the original article post

krew sums it up much better than I ever could :).

@krew how was interior quality, how did it feel inside? Compared to ES, IS, GS, NX, etc? Thank you.

spwolf

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.

I too, have reached same general consensus as @Gecko, @mikeavelli, and @Carmaker1! I wholeheartedly stand by their points. I too, also mentioned exactly the same thing they have said in another thread (I honestly forgot where it is LOL), however you responded the same thing like you've done to these guys. Look, to put it diplomatically, it's flat out incorrect. It is not because of the market, it was Lexus, who screwed this up in the first place.


The ultimate demise of our beloved GS, was because of Lexus' laziness and reluctance to actually put any effort into a product that will ACTUALLY make a difference. Everything is all Lexus' fault. It is not because of sales, customers, overall market or the car itself.


- They were the ones who chose to make an half-a**ed effort when developing the 4GS.

- They were the ones who didn't even give two sh*ts in terms of advertising and showing the world of what the GS is about, of what the GS is actually
capable of, that the GS...... was actually special, and not treated as the subordinate little sibling, tucked away in the corner, only for actually car enthusiasts (or Lexus Enthusiasts [pun not intended]) to recognize and take notice of the GS.

- They were the ones who allowed the damn dealers to go aimlessly loose for the ES, promote a weaker, more inferior product, that is in NO WAY close to the GS. Full stop. And what did they do? They stuffed customers into an ES and RX like damn sardines in a can, and shipped them off to oblivion.

- They were the ones who chose to display those two cars like supermodels, because they're much easier to deal with, for better or worse. I think you guys can understand what I mean by this, and I don't need to explain myself.

- They chose to fight other manufacturers by going the cheap, dirty and easy way. Make an obviously weaker product, and slash off the price. Because you know what? It's an Avalon with Lexus' internals and interior. You know what's funny? The Avalon's interior looks better. Want to know what's funnier? The Corolla Hatchback is miles better than that mess of an interior they put in the ES. It is honestly embarrassing what they're doing to themselves. I don't take back my statement either. Because I have defended everything about Lexus, but this 7ES is the biggest letdown, since forever.

- They ultimately pulverized their credentials by vaporizing the GS. If they have the audacity to blame sales, customers or even throw their damn dealers under the bus, which is obvious Lexus allowed this to happen, then they should immediately call it quits and throw in Mercedes-Benz/Porsche employees, with the exception of the Lexus takumi designers and reliability engineers. You tell me, isn't this an obvious sign that Lexus' new slogan "Experience Amazing", is actually just overly advertising their products into things that they're not? You know what would be easier? Actually build the real deal, to actually have the balls to truly step up, and actually fight in the world's stage. The GS, LS, and IS are aspirational cars. They're cars that make you go "yeah, what an amazing car", to which I respond, they genuinely are.


It wasn't even a few weeks ago that I was defending the hell out of Lexus. But this single release of the 7ES, I am just nowhere.

- Honestly, how the hell are they actually proud of themselves, when they're BRAGGING that the ES has more rear legroom than the LS? ARE THEY ACTUALLY TRYING TO KILL THE LS? How about the lies they are stirring in terms of performance. I am actually more excited in regards to the new Corolla Hatchback than this new ES. It has been getting such amazing reviews for a Toyota, and I am proud of what they've achieved. Sound familiar? Yup. The situation between Acura and Honda started off like this.

- What about the lackluster interior design? Don't even get me started on that. Of course quality is #1, but it looks hideous. I'd rather take the interiors from their non refreshed cars of this generation from BMW. And that's saying something.

- No AWD? Yeah. Screw you Lexus. It's so obvious that you're cost cutting even a fly with its minuscule brain can tell the mess you're in. Obviously sales are well for you guys, but the confusion you guys are stirring is beyond ridiculous.



I honestly believe this forum should put down the ES vs GS argument once and for all, for everyone's benefit. It would be much better if they slashed all RWD models and convert them to FWD. Don't worry. I'll personally support you. Just don't advertise us bs. It is hard for us to cope with the stress.

However, if we do want to keep the argument alive, there is only one solution for this. That's for Lexus to have a revolution in their lineup. You still have a chance to fix this, but boy will it take a while. I would have to create another thread of the things I think Lexus needs to do to actually be able to fight in the world's stage, once and for all.

I really apologize for these strong words that I may have used. But you can honestly understand my point of view.

In short @spwolf, my response is this. It is easy to sell and do well with an inferior car. There will be plenty of success, but they won't have an ounce of credentials. However, if they execute and honestly TRY to develop a car with the aura of specialness (is that even a word?), to work hard and stand behind their core competencies, to be sporty, yet luxurious or vise versa. To try to transcend the medium and conduct something with blood, sweat, tears and NOT through being cheap. To try to actually open their coffers and spill EVERYTHING into a car, like many manufacturers. For god's sakes, they're the most powerful manufacturer in the world. This way, not only will they get sales, not only will everyone be happy, not only will they be successful, they will also have the credentials that they're dying to get from the world and the genuine recognition from other manufacturers. It's honestly as simple as that.

What Lexus is doing right now, my response to them is that "you can't have your cake and eat it too" by doing it this way. They need to change.

spwolf

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.

I too, have reached same general consensus as @Gecko, @mikeavelli, and @Carmaker1! I wholeheartedly stand by their points. I too, also mentioned exactly the same thing they have said in another thread (I honestly forgot where it is LOL), however you responded the same thing like you've done to these guys. Look, to put it diplomatically, it's flat out incorrect. It is not because of the market, it was Lexus, who screwed this up in the first place.


The ultimate demise of our beloved GS, was because of Lexus' laziness and reluctance to actually put any effort into a product that will ACTUALLY make a difference. Everything is all Lexus' fault. It is not because of sales, customers, overall market or the car itself.


- They were the ones who chose to make an half-a**ed effort when developing the 4GS.

- They were the ones who didn't even give two sh*ts in terms of advertising and showing the world of what the GS is about, of what the GS is actually
capable of, that the GS...... was actually special, and not treated as the subordinate little sibling, tucked away in the corner, only for actually car enthusiasts (or Lexus Enthusiasts [pun not intended]) to recognize and take notice of the GS.

- They were the ones who allowed the damn dealers to go aimlessly loose for the ES, promote a weaker, more inferior product, that is in NO WAY close to the GS. Full stop. And what did they do? They stuffed customers into an ES and RX like damn sardines in a can, and shipped them off to oblivion.

- They were the ones who chose to display those two cars like supermodels, because they're much easier to deal with, for better or worse. I think you guys can understand what I mean by this, and I don't need to explain myself.

- They chose to fight other manufacturers by going the cheap, dirty and easy way. Make an obviously weaker product, and slash off the price. Because you know what? It's an Avalon with Lexus' internals and interior. You know what's funny? The Avalon's interior looks better. Want to know what's funnier? The Corolla Hatchback is miles better than that mess of an interior they put in the ES. It is honestly embarrassing what they're doing to themselves. I don't take back my statement either. Because I have defended everything about Lexus, but this 7ES is the biggest letdown, since forever.

- They ultimately pulverized their credentials by vaporizing the GS. If they have the audacity to blame sales, customers or even throw their damn dealers under the bus, which is obvious Lexus allowed this to happen, then they should immediately call it quits and throw in Mercedes-Benz/Porsche employees, with the exception of the Lexus takumi designers and reliability engineers. You tell me, isn't this an obvious sign that Lexus' new slogan "Experience Amazing", is actually just overly advertising their products into things that they're not? You know what would be easier? Actually build the real deal, to actually have the balls to truly step up, and actually fight in the world's stage. The GS, LS, and IS are aspirational cars. They're cars that make you go "yeah, what an amazing car", to which I respond, they genuinely are.


It wasn't even a few weeks ago that I was defending the hell out of Lexus. But this single release of the 7ES, I am just nowhere.

- Honestly, how the hell are they actually proud of themselves, when they're BRAGGING that the ES has more rear legroom than the LS? ARE THEY ACTUALLY TRYING TO KILL THE LS? How about the lies they are stirring in terms of performance. I am actually more excited in regards to the new Corolla Hatchback than this new ES. It has been getting such amazing reviews for a Toyota, and I am proud of what they've achieved. Sound familiar? Yup. The situation between Acura and Honda started off like this.

- What about the lackluster interior design? Don't even get me started on that. Of course quality is #1, but it looks hideous. I'd rather take the interiors from their non refreshed cars of this generation from BMW. And that's saying something.

- No AWD? Yeah. Screw you Lexus. It's so obvious that you're cost cutting even a fly with its minuscule brain can tell the mess you're in. Obviously sales are well for you guys, but the confusion you guys are stirring is beyond ridiculous.



I honestly believe this forum should put down the ES vs GS argument once and for all, for everyone's benefit. It would be much better if they slashed all RWD models and convert them to FWD. Don't worry. I'll personally support you. Just don't advertise us bs. It is hard for us to cope with the stress.

However, if we do want to keep the argument alive, there is only one solution for this. That's for Lexus to have a revolution in their lineup. You still have a chance to fix this, but boy will it take a while. I would have to create another thread of the things I think Lexus needs to do to actually be able to fight in the world's stage, once and for all.

I really apologize for these strong words that I may have used. But you can honestly understand my point of view.

In short @spwolf, my response is this. It is easy to sell and do well with an inferior car. There will be plenty of success, but they won't have an ounce of credentials. However, if they execute and honestly TRY to develop a car with the aura of specialness (is that even a word?), to work hard and stand behind their core competencies, to be sporty, yet luxurious or vise versa. To try to transcend the medium and conduct something with blood, sweat, tears and NOT through being cheap. To try to actually open their coffers and spill EVERYTHING into a car, like many manufacturers. For god's sakes, they're the most powerful manufacturer in the world. This way, not only will they get sales, not only will everyone be happy, not only will they be successful, they will also have the credentials that they're dying to get from the world and the genuine recognition from other manufacturers. It's honestly as simple as that.

What Lexus is doing right now, my response to them is that "you can't have your cake and eat it too" by doing it this way. They need to change.

spwolf

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.

I too, have reached same general consensus as @Gecko, @mikeavelli, and @Carmaker1! I wholeheartedly stand by their points. I too, also mentioned exactly the same thing they have said in another thread (I honestly forgot where it is LOL), however you responded the same thing like you've done to these guys. Look, to put it diplomatically, it's flat out incorrect. It is not because of the market, it was Lexus, who screwed this up in the first place.


The ultimate demise of our beloved GS, was because of Lexus' laziness and reluctance to actually put any effort into a product that will ACTUALLY make a difference. Everything is all Lexus' fault. It is not because of sales, customers, overall market or the car itself.


- They were the ones who chose to make an half-a**ed effort when developing the 4GS.

- They were the ones who didn't even give two sh*ts in terms of advertising and showing the world of what the GS is about, of what the GS is actually
capable of, that the GS...... was actually special, and not treated as the subordinate little sibling, tucked away in the corner, only for actually car enthusiasts (or Lexus Enthusiasts [pun not intended]) to recognize and take notice of the GS.

- They were the ones who allowed the damn dealers to go aimlessly loose for the ES, promote a weaker, more inferior product, that is in NO WAY close to the GS. Full stop. And what did they do? They stuffed customers into an ES and RX like damn sardines in a can, and shipped them off to oblivion.

- They were the ones who chose to display those two cars like supermodels, because they're much easier to deal with, for better or worse. I think you guys can understand what I mean by this, and I don't need to explain myself.

- They chose to fight other manufacturers by going the cheap, dirty and easy way. Make an obviously weaker product, and slash off the price. Because you know what? It's an Avalon with Lexus' internals and interior. You know what's funny? The Avalon's interior looks better. Want to know what's funnier? The Corolla Hatchback is miles better than that mess of an interior they put in the ES. It is honestly embarrassing what they're doing to themselves. I don't take back my statement either. Because I have defended everything about Lexus, but this 7ES is the biggest letdown, since forever.

- They ultimately pulverized their credentials by vaporizing the GS. If they have the audacity to blame sales, customers or even throw their damn dealers under the bus, which is obvious Lexus allowed this to happen, then they should immediately call it quits and throw in Mercedes-Benz/Porsche employees, with the exception of the Lexus takumi designers and reliability engineers. You tell me, isn't this an obvious sign that Lexus' new slogan "Experience Amazing", is actually just overly advertising their products into things that they're not? You know what would be easier? Actually build the real deal, to actually have the balls to truly step up, and actually fight in the world's stage. The GS, LS, and IS are aspirational cars. They're cars that make you go "yeah, what an amazing car", to which I respond, they genuinely are.


It wasn't even a few weeks ago that I was defending the hell out of Lexus. But this single release of the 7ES, I am just nowhere.

- Honestly, how the hell are they actually proud of themselves, when they're BRAGGING that the ES has more rear legroom than the LS? ARE THEY ACTUALLY TRYING TO KILL THE LS? How about the lies they are stirring in terms of performance. I am actually more excited in regards to the new Corolla Hatchback than this new ES. It has been getting such amazing reviews for a Toyota, and I am proud of what they've achieved. Sound familiar? Yup. The situation between Acura and Honda started off like this.

- What about the lackluster interior design? Don't even get me started on that. Of course quality is #1, but it looks hideous. I'd rather take the interiors from their non refreshed cars of this generation from BMW. And that's saying something.

- No AWD? Yeah. Screw you Lexus. It's so obvious that you're cost cutting even a fly with its minuscule brain can tell the mess you're in. Obviously sales are well for you guys, but the confusion you guys are stirring is beyond ridiculous.



I honestly believe this forum should put down the ES vs GS argument once and for all, for everyone's benefit. It would be much better if they slashed all RWD models and convert them to FWD. Don't worry. I'll personally support you. Just don't advertise us bs. It is hard for us to cope with the stress.

However, if we do want to keep the argument alive, there is only one solution for this. That's for Lexus to have a revolution in their lineup. You still have a chance to fix this, but boy will it take a while. I would have to create another thread of the things I think Lexus needs to do to actually be able to fight in the world's stage, once and for all.

I really apologize for these strong words that I may have used. But you can honestly understand my point of view.

In short @spwolf, my response is this. It is easy to sell and do well with an inferior car. There will be plenty of success, but they won't have an ounce of credentials. However, if they execute and honestly TRY to develop a car with the aura of specialness (is that even a word?), to work hard and stand behind their core competencies, to be sporty, yet luxurious or vise versa. To try to transcend the medium and conduct something with blood, sweat, tears and NOT through being cheap. To try to actually open their coffers and spill EVERYTHING into a car, like many manufacturers. For god's sakes, they're the most powerful manufacturer in the world. This way, not only will they get sales, not only will everyone be happy, not only will they be successful, they will also have the credentials that they're dying to get from the world and the genuine recognition from other manufacturers. It's honestly as simple as that.

What Lexus is doing right now, my response to them is that "you can't have your cake and eat it too" by doing it this way. They need to change.

I agree with your post @F1 Silver Arrows, as that is one of the most on point criticisms I have read. I am thinking like what @Gecko had said to me, certain decision making was made so belatedly, that the ES wasn't able to be developed to replace GS with AWD and stay on time.

Problem I have is, they might try to deceptively market it as such. I will not accept that and will call them out on it. In this case, I will give the ES the benefit of the doubt on its own fine merits. But anyone trying to convince me that its a credible successor to anything other than the XV60 ES, is wasting their time, insulting my intelligence, and simply playing devil's advocate.

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

I agree with your post @F1 Silver Arrows, as that is one of the most on point criticisms I have read. I am thinking like what @Gecko had said to me, certain decision making was made so belatedly, that the ES wasn't able to be developed to replace GS with AWD and stay on time.

Problem I have is, they might try to deceptively market it as such. I will not accept that and will call them out on it. In this case, I will give the ES the benefit of the doubt on its own fine merits. But anyone trying to convince me that its a credible successor to anything other than the XV60 ES, is wasting their time, insulting my intelligence, and simply playing devil's advocate.

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

I agree with your post @F1 Silver Arrows, as that is one of the most on point criticisms I have read. I am thinking like what @Gecko had said to me, certain decision making was made so belatedly, that the ES wasn't able to be developed to replace GS with AWD and stay on time.

Problem I have is, they might try to deceptively market it as such. I will not accept that and will call them out on it. In this case, I will give the ES the benefit of the doubt on its own fine merits. But anyone trying to convince me that its a credible successor to anything other than the XV60 ES, is wasting their time, insulting my intelligence, and simply playing devil's advocate.

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

KOHIPEET

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

Yes it would. Actually a turbo hybrid is the perfect combo since it hides turbo lag and improves drivability significantly.

The only downside is that a turbo ICE has lower peak thermal efficiency than a naturally aspirated one. Therefore such a hybrid system may not be optimal for fuel efficiency, but it's a HUGE step over a gas engine nonetheless.

Carmaker1

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

True, that's enough ES vs GS debate for now. We have been doing this since like two years ago and repeated the same thing again and again.

KOHIPEET

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

Yes it would. Actually a turbo hybrid is the perfect combo since it hides turbo lag and improves drivability significantly.

The only downside is that a turbo ICE has lower peak thermal efficiency than a naturally aspirated one. Therefore such a hybrid system may not be optimal for fuel efficiency, but it's a HUGE step over a gas engine nonetheless.

Carmaker1

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

True, that's enough ES vs GS debate for now. We have been doing this since like two years ago and repeated the same thing again and again.

KOHIPEET

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

Yes it would. Actually a turbo hybrid is the perfect combo since it hides turbo lag and improves drivability significantly.

The only downside is that a turbo ICE has lower peak thermal efficiency than a naturally aspirated one. Therefore such a hybrid system may not be optimal for fuel efficiency, but it's a HUGE step over a gas engine nonetheless.

Carmaker1

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

True, that's enough ES vs GS debate for now. We have been doing this since like two years ago and repeated the same thing again and again.

Why is the ES not available with AWD? And why oh why is rear legroom bigger than the LS??? I am shocked!