Videos: Inside the 2019 Lexus ES & ES F SPORT

spwolf

We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

sad, but very true.

spwolf

We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

sad, but very true.

ssun30

I just came back from the Beijing Motor Show to share something about the new ES.

Well, there really is not a lot to say, but a lot to rant. I didn't even take any pictures of it, we saw all of them online. They only show the exterior and don't allow interior visits, so it's really hard to add any details.

Overall I am deeply disappointed with the ES launch and their overall marketing effort. To begin with, their booth is very, very small. It's not even half the size of Infiniti and Acura's, so there's no point even comparing it to BBA. As a result, they are not even displaying all their models, no GS or GX is predictable since they are on their way out. There is no RC; there is a white LC which certainly isn't the best color to show in a heavily lit hall, and the LC is at a corner that people easily miss. It seems they didn't understand that sports cars are what attract people to visit them in the first place. By comparison, Mercedes has their 4-time F1 champion car right at the entrance; Alfa Romeo has the perennial last-row finisher Sauber F1 car (which the general public don't know, they only know they do F1); Audi has the carbon fibre grey R8 V10 Plus and an absolutely gorgeous lemon green RS4 Avant (they even sell it here!), not to mention a full row of M cars, starting from 1 all the way up to 6, in sedan and crossover flavors, plus a M760 V12, at the front row of the BMW booth. Their booth is bland and barren. They didn't show a structural blue LC or their perhaps only interesting sedan, the GS-F. It makes every Lexus owner embarrassed.

Also, no UX? Did they forget that crossovers are money printers? Speaking of money printers, they even passed on the RX-L. Apparently they think it's okay to to let Acura pick up all that free money.

And our hero ES, an ES260 F-Sport and an ES300h, are tucked in a corner no one can see, with no effort showing what's new and what's cool about them. Their staff don't even know the fuel economy and total system horsepower of the hybrid, because Lexus didn't give them any technical details. We know more by reading online. Yes, they took loads of pre-orders because to be honest, people who bothered visiting their booth are there to pre-order an ES. Their goal is very clear here: to sell the ES.

And of course they show the LS350 Executive Edition so they can perhaps milk more money by convincing some ES buyers to upgrade. It's an embarrassing product, while BBA are showing their best: the Maybach, the M760 V12, the plug-in A8. They don't show the 500h because apparently they are afraid its price tag will scare away ES buyers. Let me say this again: they don't show their flagship because they are afraid luxury car buyers can't afford it.

Now onto the positives:
>>They are taking loads of pre-orders. This thing will sell in record numbers. Lexus buyers are so confident in the brand that they buy them without even touching the interior.
>>Chinese buyers are almost 100% positive with the spindle grille. Nobody at the booth said "OMG it looks like the Predator I'm so scared!". They buy Lexus for the looks.
>>Their buyer demographic is very young. The IS has a lot of potential if the next generation is executed successfully. They need a cheaper variant against the likes of C200 and 320i, a hybrid to take advantage of their highly successful marketing campaign, as well as an IS-F to attract people to buy F-sport add-ons (that's how AMG/RS/M works). The looks department of current-gen is absolutely bang on; young people really want one, but the lack of a more accessible 200 or 260 variant stops them from buying it. Make it a look like a baby LC sedan with a better pricing structure and they have a 3 series killer.
>>The F-Sport has a lot of potential as well, again Lexus has the sportiest looks period, and F-Sport adds even more "WOW I want that" factor. Remember people just want a body kit on their 320i to pretend they had a M3. So Lexus listen: don't lock people out of interior options when they just want a body kit and bigger wheels! It is the No.1 reason people don't buy the upgrade. People want a good looking car without having to be surrounded by flimsy plastic (the interior quality of the IS F-Sport is abysmal).

P.S. Pre-order starts now and delivery will begin in August.
P.P.S. It's funny how almost every visitor mentioned "260" is a better name than "250" (a pejorative word meaning "dumb").

Bam! You got it. Winna winna chicken dinner. Honestly summed it up so well. You're honestly right about BMW and especially Mercedes-Benz (AMG and of course F1 :grinning:)

And HEY HEY HEY HEY OH HEY, SAUBER ISN'T THE WORST CAR GRRRRR. :mad:WILLIAMS IS DOING THE WORST RIGHT NOW. Let's talk F1 sometime! ;)

ssun30

Also, I talked to some ES buyers to see how they feel about the death of the GS, and I am shocked.

Over half of them responded that they actually wanted a GS. Remember most of these people are middle-age business people who want a comfortable car for company use, i.e. not the intended buyer demographic of the GS. But from their response the thought process really makes sense to me: they are attracted by the IS due to its refreshing looks, but they want something bigger. So they checked on the GS and the ES, and their consensus is that the GS is the proper luxury car they actally want; the ES just doesn't "feel" or "look" right. What happens next is shockingly similar to what happens in the U.S., that the dealership doesn't want to sell the GS and persuade buyers to go for the ES by offering incentives that makes the GS totally unattractive.

Why this happens is really, really weird. Is it because dealers make less money per sale from an ES than from a GS? Is Lexus aware its dealers are doing this? If it wasn't then it's getting a very wrong message: that GS sales are bad not because people don't want one, but that they can't buy one.

You guys may know I've always been an ES loyalist and don't like the GS (while admitting it's the better car). Now I have some second thoughts about the decision to buy the new ES300h. I know it's a very safe decision and my business depends on it. But there is always that inner voice that screams "F it, I love cars, I've driven enough boring cars, it's time to get that GS-F".

Another excellent point. I'll be honest, the dealers are also at fault here too. It seems like they think that excessive ES advertising = sales, whereas it is slowly destroying other models. The fact that they boast that the ES has more legroom than the LS, it shows how f'ed up Lexus (and to a greater extent Toyota) is right now.

ssun30

I just came back from the Beijing Motor Show to share something about the new ES.

Well, there really is not a lot to say, but a lot to rant. I didn't even take any pictures of it, we saw all of them online. They only show the exterior and don't allow interior visits, so it's really hard to add any details.

Overall I am deeply disappointed with the ES launch and their overall marketing effort. To begin with, their booth is very, very small. It's not even half the size of Infiniti and Acura's, so there's no point even comparing it to BBA. As a result, they are not even displaying all their models, no GS or GX is predictable since they are on their way out. There is no RC; there is a white LC which certainly isn't the best color to show in a heavily lit hall, and the LC is at a corner that people easily miss. It seems they didn't understand that sports cars are what attract people to visit them in the first place. By comparison, Mercedes has their 4-time F1 champion car right at the entrance; Alfa Romeo has the perennial last-row finisher Sauber F1 car (which the general public don't know, they only know they do F1); Audi has the carbon fibre grey R8 V10 Plus and an absolutely gorgeous lemon green RS4 Avant (they even sell it here!), not to mention a full row of M cars, starting from 1 all the way up to 6, in sedan and crossover flavors, plus a M760 V12, at the front row of the BMW booth. Their booth is bland and barren. They didn't show a structural blue LC or their perhaps only interesting sedan, the GS-F. It makes every Lexus owner embarrassed.

Also, no UX? Did they forget that crossovers are money printers? Speaking of money printers, they even passed on the RX-L. Apparently they think it's okay to to let Acura pick up all that free money.

And our hero ES, an ES260 F-Sport and an ES300h, are tucked in a corner no one can see, with no effort showing what's new and what's cool about them. Their staff don't even know the fuel economy and total system horsepower of the hybrid, because Lexus didn't give them any technical details. We know more by reading online. Yes, they took loads of pre-orders because to be honest, people who bothered visiting their booth are there to pre-order an ES. Their goal is very clear here: to sell the ES.

And of course they show the LS350 Executive Edition so they can perhaps milk more money by convincing some ES buyers to upgrade. It's an embarrassing product, while BBA are showing their best: the Maybach, the M760 V12, the plug-in A8. They don't show the 500h because apparently they are afraid its price tag will scare away ES buyers. Let me say this again: they don't show their flagship because they are afraid luxury car buyers can't afford it.

Now onto the positives:
>>They are taking loads of pre-orders. This thing will sell in record numbers. Lexus buyers are so confident in the brand that they buy them without even touching the interior.
>>Chinese buyers are almost 100% positive with the spindle grille. Nobody at the booth said "OMG it looks like the Predator I'm so scared!". They buy Lexus for the looks.
>>Their buyer demographic is very young. The IS has a lot of potential if the next generation is executed successfully. They need a cheaper variant against the likes of C200 and 320i, a hybrid to take advantage of their highly successful marketing campaign, as well as an IS-F to attract people to buy F-sport add-ons (that's how AMG/RS/M works). The looks department of current-gen is absolutely bang on; young people really want one, but the lack of a more accessible 200 or 260 variant stops them from buying it. Make it a look like a baby LC sedan with a better pricing structure and they have a 3 series killer.
>>The F-Sport has a lot of potential as well, again Lexus has the sportiest looks period, and F-Sport adds even more "WOW I want that" factor. Remember people just want a body kit on their 320i to pretend they had a M3. So Lexus listen: don't lock people out of interior options when they just want a body kit and bigger wheels! It is the No.1 reason people don't buy the upgrade. People want a good looking car without having to be surrounded by flimsy plastic (the interior quality of the IS F-Sport is abysmal).

P.S. Pre-order starts now and delivery will begin in August.
P.P.S. It's funny how almost every visitor mentioned "260" is a better name than "250" (a pejorative word meaning "dumb").

Bam! You got it. Winna winna chicken dinner. Honestly summed it up so well. You're honestly right about BMW and especially Mercedes-Benz (AMG and of course F1 :grinning:)

And HEY HEY HEY HEY OH HEY, SAUBER ISN'T THE WORST CAR GRRRRR. :mad:WILLIAMS IS DOING THE WORST RIGHT NOW. Let's talk F1 sometime! ;)

ssun30

Also, I talked to some ES buyers to see how they feel about the death of the GS, and I am shocked.

Over half of them responded that they actually wanted a GS. Remember most of these people are middle-age business people who want a comfortable car for company use, i.e. not the intended buyer demographic of the GS. But from their response the thought process really makes sense to me: they are attracted by the IS due to its refreshing looks, but they want something bigger. So they checked on the GS and the ES, and their consensus is that the GS is the proper luxury car they actally want; the ES just doesn't "feel" or "look" right. What happens next is shockingly similar to what happens in the U.S., that the dealership doesn't want to sell the GS and persuade buyers to go for the ES by offering incentives that makes the GS totally unattractive.

Why this happens is really, really weird. Is it because dealers make less money per sale from an ES than from a GS? Is Lexus aware its dealers are doing this? If it wasn't then it's getting a very wrong message: that GS sales are bad not because people don't want one, but that they can't buy one.

You guys may know I've always been an ES loyalist and don't like the GS (while admitting it's the better car). Now I have some second thoughts about the decision to buy the new ES300h. I know it's a very safe decision and my business depends on it. But there is always that inner voice that screams "F it, I love cars, I've driven enough boring cars, it's time to get that GS-F".

Another excellent point. I'll be honest, the dealers are also at fault here too. It seems like they think that excessive ES advertising = sales, whereas it is slowly destroying other models. The fact that they boast that the ES has more legroom than the LS, it shows how f'ed up Lexus (and to a greater extent Toyota) is right now.

ssun30

I just came back from the Beijing Motor Show to share something about the new ES.

Well, there really is not a lot to say, but a lot to rant. I didn't even take any pictures of it, we saw all of them online. They only show the exterior and don't allow interior visits, so it's really hard to add any details.

Overall I am deeply disappointed with the ES launch and their overall marketing effort. To begin with, their booth is very, very small. It's not even half the size of Infiniti and Acura's, so there's no point even comparing it to BBA. As a result, they are not even displaying all their models, no GS or GX is predictable since they are on their way out. There is no RC; there is a white LC which certainly isn't the best color to show in a heavily lit hall, and the LC is at a corner that people easily miss. It seems they didn't understand that sports cars are what attract people to visit them in the first place. By comparison, Mercedes has their 4-time F1 champion car right at the entrance; Alfa Romeo has the perennial last-row finisher Sauber F1 car (which the general public don't know, they only know they do F1); Audi has the carbon fibre grey R8 V10 Plus and an absolutely gorgeous lemon green RS4 Avant (they even sell it here!), not to mention a full row of M cars, starting from 1 all the way up to 6, in sedan and crossover flavors, plus a M760 V12, at the front row of the BMW booth. Their booth is bland and barren. They didn't show a structural blue LC or their perhaps only interesting sedan, the GS-F. It makes every Lexus owner embarrassed.

Also, no UX? Did they forget that crossovers are money printers? Speaking of money printers, they even passed on the RX-L. Apparently they think it's okay to to let Acura pick up all that free money.

And our hero ES, an ES260 F-Sport and an ES300h, are tucked in a corner no one can see, with no effort showing what's new and what's cool about them. Their staff don't even know the fuel economy and total system horsepower of the hybrid, because Lexus didn't give them any technical details. We know more by reading online. Yes, they took loads of pre-orders because to be honest, people who bothered visiting their booth are there to pre-order an ES. Their goal is very clear here: to sell the ES.

And of course they show the LS350 Executive Edition so they can perhaps milk more money by convincing some ES buyers to upgrade. It's an embarrassing product, while BBA are showing their best: the Maybach, the M760 V12, the plug-in A8. They don't show the 500h because apparently they are afraid its price tag will scare away ES buyers. Let me say this again: they don't show their flagship because they are afraid luxury car buyers can't afford it.

Now onto the positives:
>>They are taking loads of pre-orders. This thing will sell in record numbers. Lexus buyers are so confident in the brand that they buy them without even touching the interior.
>>Chinese buyers are almost 100% positive with the spindle grille. Nobody at the booth said "OMG it looks like the Predator I'm so scared!". They buy Lexus for the looks.
>>Their buyer demographic is very young. The IS has a lot of potential if the next generation is executed successfully. They need a cheaper variant against the likes of C200 and 320i, a hybrid to take advantage of their highly successful marketing campaign, as well as an IS-F to attract people to buy F-sport add-ons (that's how AMG/RS/M works). The looks department of current-gen is absolutely bang on; young people really want one, but the lack of a more accessible 200 or 260 variant stops them from buying it. Make it a look like a baby LC sedan with a better pricing structure and they have a 3 series killer.
>>The F-Sport has a lot of potential as well, again Lexus has the sportiest looks period, and F-Sport adds even more "WOW I want that" factor. Remember people just want a body kit on their 320i to pretend they had a M3. So Lexus listen: don't lock people out of interior options when they just want a body kit and bigger wheels! It is the No.1 reason people don't buy the upgrade. People want a good looking car without having to be surrounded by flimsy plastic (the interior quality of the IS F-Sport is abysmal).

P.S. Pre-order starts now and delivery will begin in August.
P.P.S. It's funny how almost every visitor mentioned "260" is a better name than "250" (a pejorative word meaning "dumb").

Bam! You got it. Winna winna chicken dinner. Honestly summed it up so well. You're honestly right about BMW and especially Mercedes-Benz (AMG and of course F1 :grinning:)

And HEY HEY HEY HEY OH HEY, SAUBER ISN'T THE WORST CAR GRRRRR. :mad:WILLIAMS IS DOING THE WORST RIGHT NOW. Let's talk F1 sometime! ;)

ssun30

Also, I talked to some ES buyers to see how they feel about the death of the GS, and I am shocked.

Over half of them responded that they actually wanted a GS. Remember most of these people are middle-age business people who want a comfortable car for company use, i.e. not the intended buyer demographic of the GS. But from their response the thought process really makes sense to me: they are attracted by the IS due to its refreshing looks, but they want something bigger. So they checked on the GS and the ES, and their consensus is that the GS is the proper luxury car they actally want; the ES just doesn't "feel" or "look" right. What happens next is shockingly similar to what happens in the U.S., that the dealership doesn't want to sell the GS and persuade buyers to go for the ES by offering incentives that makes the GS totally unattractive.

Why this happens is really, really weird. Is it because dealers make less money per sale from an ES than from a GS? Is Lexus aware its dealers are doing this? If it wasn't then it's getting a very wrong message: that GS sales are bad not because people don't want one, but that they can't buy one.

You guys may know I've always been an ES loyalist and don't like the GS (while admitting it's the better car). Now I have some second thoughts about the decision to buy the new ES300h. I know it's a very safe decision and my business depends on it. But there is always that inner voice that screams "F it, I love cars, I've driven enough boring cars, it's time to get that GS-F".

Another excellent point. I'll be honest, the dealers are also at fault here too. It seems like they think that excessive ES advertising = sales, whereas it is slowly destroying other models. The fact that they boast that the ES has more legroom than the LS, it shows how f'ed up Lexus (and to a greater extent Toyota) is right now.

F1 Silver Arrows

Another excellent point. I'll be honest, the dealers are also at fault here too. It seems like they think that excessive ES advertising = sales, whereas it is slowly destroying other models. The fact that they boast that the ES has more legroom than the LS, it shows how f'ed up Lexus (and to a greater extent Toyota) is right now.

these things have nothing to do with dealers at all. When you have a buyer that has $60k to spend, you down show him ES... When you have a buyer with $40k, then you cant show him GS either. Value oriented buyer with $45k will easily take 2019 ES350 F-Sport over base GS350, with a lot more equipment and interior thats not so much of an difference anymore.

When it comes to incentives for instance, it is Lexus that offers them, not dealers. So Lexus likely does not want to lose money on GS, they dont have to unlike for instance Infiniti that has to discount Q50 because they have nothing else to sell.

I cant stress this enough, but Europe and Japan clearly show that ES is not a reason for lower GS sales.

F1 Silver Arrows

Another excellent point. I'll be honest, the dealers are also at fault here too. It seems like they think that excessive ES advertising = sales, whereas it is slowly destroying other models. The fact that they boast that the ES has more legroom than the LS, it shows how f'ed up Lexus (and to a greater extent Toyota) is right now.

these things have nothing to do with dealers at all. When you have a buyer that has $60k to spend, you down show him ES... When you have a buyer with $40k, then you cant show him GS either. Value oriented buyer with $45k will easily take 2019 ES350 F-Sport over base GS350, with a lot more equipment and interior thats not so much of an difference anymore.

When it comes to incentives for instance, it is Lexus that offers them, not dealers. So Lexus likely does not want to lose money on GS, they dont have to unlike for instance Infiniti that has to discount Q50 because they have nothing else to sell.

I cant stress this enough, but Europe and Japan clearly show that ES is not a reason for lower GS sales.

F1 Silver Arrows

Another excellent point. I'll be honest, the dealers are also at fault here too. It seems like they think that excessive ES advertising = sales, whereas it is slowly destroying other models. The fact that they boast that the ES has more legroom than the LS, it shows how f'ed up Lexus (and to a greater extent Toyota) is right now.

these things have nothing to do with dealers at all. When you have a buyer that has $60k to spend, you down show him ES... When you have a buyer with $40k, then you cant show him GS either. Value oriented buyer with $45k will easily take 2019 ES350 F-Sport over base GS350, with a lot more equipment and interior thats not so much of an difference anymore.

When it comes to incentives for instance, it is Lexus that offers them, not dealers. So Lexus likely does not want to lose money on GS, they dont have to unlike for instance Infiniti that has to discount Q50 because they have nothing else to sell.

I cant stress this enough, but Europe and Japan clearly show that ES is not a reason for lower GS sales.

spwolf

these things have nothing to do with dealers at all. When you have a buyer that has $60k to spend, you down show him ES... When you have a buyer with $40k, then you cant show him GS either......

That's why I didn't mention anything in regards to money and I only said advertising. When was the last time you saw the GS being advertised? Either it being dealers or corporate, the GS has no time under the spotlight whatsoever.

spwolf

these things have nothing to do with dealers at all. When you have a buyer that has $60k to spend, you down show him ES... When you have a buyer with $40k, then you cant show him GS either......

That's why I didn't mention anything in regards to money and I only said advertising. When was the last time you saw the GS being advertised? Either it being dealers or corporate, the GS has no time under the spotlight whatsoever.

spwolf

these things have nothing to do with dealers at all. When you have a buyer that has $60k to spend, you down show him ES... When you have a buyer with $40k, then you cant show him GS either......

That's why I didn't mention anything in regards to money and I only said advertising. When was the last time you saw the GS being advertised? Either it being dealers or corporate, the GS has no time under the spotlight whatsoever.

F1 Silver Arrows

That's why I didn't mention anything in regards to money and I only said advertising. When was the last time you saw the GS being advertised? Either it being dealers or corporate, the GS has no time under the spotlight whatsoever.

Thats also based on its market performance... cars that sell well get more marketing. Marketing is not really a problem, just the car is not that desirable in current market at current prices.

There is no silver bullet for GS but main thing for this thread is that it has nothing to do with ES really.

F1 Silver Arrows

That's why I didn't mention anything in regards to money and I only said advertising. When was the last time you saw the GS being advertised? Either it being dealers or corporate, the GS has no time under the spotlight whatsoever.

Thats also based on its market performance... cars that sell well get more marketing. Marketing is not really a problem, just the car is not that desirable in current market at current prices.

There is no silver bullet for GS but main thing for this thread is that it has nothing to do with ES really.

F1 Silver Arrows

That's why I didn't mention anything in regards to money and I only said advertising. When was the last time you saw the GS being advertised? Either it being dealers or corporate, the GS has no time under the spotlight whatsoever.

Thats also based on its market performance... cars that sell well get more marketing. Marketing is not really a problem, just the car is not that desirable in current market at current prices.

There is no silver bullet for GS but main thing for this thread is that it has nothing to do with ES really.

spwolf

Thats also based on its market performance... cars that sell well get more marketing. Marketing is not really a problem, just the car is not that desirable in current market at current prices.

There is no silver bullet for GS but main thing for this thread is that it has nothing to do with ES really.

The GS got squeezed. With the Germans the cars and classes are easily differentiated by size..
3/5/7 etc..

Here Lexus has a GS that's more than an ES but smaller. The ES is an easy sell the GS is not for a salesperson. They will just try to sell an ES without some sort of kick back or incentive.

It's not just the GS though. At least the GS sold well some years. The Japanese branded RLX and Q70 always sold poorly. The Germans dominate with the 5/E and now A6. Caddy struggles here too with the CtS.

It will be interesting to see how this ES is marketed and how the public welcomes it now that it's turned a corner. I'm very curious on pricing.

I'm really shocked AWD wasn't an option.

spwolf

Thats also based on its market performance... cars that sell well get more marketing. Marketing is not really a problem, just the car is not that desirable in current market at current prices.

There is no silver bullet for GS but main thing for this thread is that it has nothing to do with ES really.

The GS got squeezed. With the Germans the cars and classes are easily differentiated by size..
3/5/7 etc..

Here Lexus has a GS that's more than an ES but smaller. The ES is an easy sell the GS is not for a salesperson. They will just try to sell an ES without some sort of kick back or incentive.

It's not just the GS though. At least the GS sold well some years. The Japanese branded RLX and Q70 always sold poorly. The Germans dominate with the 5/E and now A6. Caddy struggles here too with the CtS.

It will be interesting to see how this ES is marketed and how the public welcomes it now that it's turned a corner. I'm very curious on pricing.

I'm really shocked AWD wasn't an option.

spwolf

Thats also based on its market performance... cars that sell well get more marketing. Marketing is not really a problem, just the car is not that desirable in current market at current prices.

There is no silver bullet for GS but main thing for this thread is that it has nothing to do with ES really.

The GS got squeezed. With the Germans the cars and classes are easily differentiated by size..
3/5/7 etc..

Here Lexus has a GS that's more than an ES but smaller. The ES is an easy sell the GS is not for a salesperson. They will just try to sell an ES without some sort of kick back or incentive.

It's not just the GS though. At least the GS sold well some years. The Japanese branded RLX and Q70 always sold poorly. The Germans dominate with the 5/E and now A6. Caddy struggles here too with the CtS.

It will be interesting to see how this ES is marketed and how the public welcomes it now that it's turned a corner. I'm very curious on pricing.

I'm really shocked AWD wasn't an option.

ssun30

It's a closed cycle: the M3 attracts people to buy the regular 3 series, BMW give them the instant gratification with that M-sport add-on, when those people grow older and accumulate wealth some will eventually buy a proper M3.

It is theory. The M3 attracts to stay loyal to the company, but not sure how many older people accumulate wealth and later buy it. Either they had it, or they won't.

mikeavelli

The GS got squeezed. With the Germans the cars and classes are easily differentiated by size..
3/5/7 etc..

Here Lexus has a GS that's more than an ES but smaller. The ES is an easy sell the GS is not for a salesperson. They will just try to sell an ES without some sort of kick back or incentive.

It's not just the GS though. At least the GS sold well some years. The Japanese branded RLX and Q70 always sold poorly. The Germans dominate with the 5/E and now A6. Caddy struggles here too with the CtS.

It will be interesting to see how this ES is marketed and how the public welcomes it now that it's turned a corner. I'm very curious on pricing.

I'm really shocked AWD wasn't an option.

ES might do very well in Europe, if Lexus markets the car specially in countries other than Germany. Lack of AWD is bad, from a marketing perspective, especially in Switzerland and northern countries.

ssun30

It's a closed cycle: the M3 attracts people to buy the regular 3 series, BMW give them the instant gratification with that M-sport add-on, when those people grow older and accumulate wealth some will eventually buy a proper M3.

It is theory. The M3 attracts to stay loyal to the company, but not sure how many older people accumulate wealth and later buy it. Either they had it, or they won't.

mikeavelli

The GS got squeezed. With the Germans the cars and classes are easily differentiated by size..
3/5/7 etc..

Here Lexus has a GS that's more than an ES but smaller. The ES is an easy sell the GS is not for a salesperson. They will just try to sell an ES without some sort of kick back or incentive.

It's not just the GS though. At least the GS sold well some years. The Japanese branded RLX and Q70 always sold poorly. The Germans dominate with the 5/E and now A6. Caddy struggles here too with the CtS.

It will be interesting to see how this ES is marketed and how the public welcomes it now that it's turned a corner. I'm very curious on pricing.

I'm really shocked AWD wasn't an option.

ES might do very well in Europe, if Lexus markets the car specially in countries other than Germany. Lack of AWD is bad, from a marketing perspective, especially in Switzerland and northern countries.

ssun30

It's a closed cycle: the M3 attracts people to buy the regular 3 series, BMW give them the instant gratification with that M-sport add-on, when those people grow older and accumulate wealth some will eventually buy a proper M3.

It is theory. The M3 attracts to stay loyal to the company, but not sure how many older people accumulate wealth and later buy it. Either they had it, or they won't.

mikeavelli

The GS got squeezed. With the Germans the cars and classes are easily differentiated by size..
3/5/7 etc..

Here Lexus has a GS that's more than an ES but smaller. The ES is an easy sell the GS is not for a salesperson. They will just try to sell an ES without some sort of kick back or incentive.

It's not just the GS though. At least the GS sold well some years. The Japanese branded RLX and Q70 always sold poorly. The Germans dominate with the 5/E and now A6. Caddy struggles here too with the CtS.

It will be interesting to see how this ES is marketed and how the public welcomes it now that it's turned a corner. I'm very curious on pricing.

I'm really shocked AWD wasn't an option.

ES might do very well in Europe, if Lexus markets the car specially in countries other than Germany. Lack of AWD is bad, from a marketing perspective, especially in Switzerland and northern countries.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

So obviously when you look at old ES and GS next to each other, it is pretty obvious that GS is much superior car... it looks better and interior is a lot better (even if boring), it is very high quality.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

Well it doesn't make any difference now does it? The GS did not undercut its competition in price which is what a Lexus vehicle typically needs due to weaker brand image. So GS was never given a fair chance by Lexus itself.

On the other hand, none of those people who wanted a GS has any complaint about the new ES. They said it looks right and feels right unlike the outgoing XV60. So no need to mourn the death of GS too much.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

So obviously when you look at old ES and GS next to each other, it is pretty obvious that GS is much superior car... it looks better and interior is a lot better (even if boring), it is very high quality.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

Well it doesn't make any difference now does it? The GS did not undercut its competition in price which is what a Lexus vehicle typically needs due to weaker brand image. So GS was never given a fair chance by Lexus itself.

On the other hand, none of those people who wanted a GS has any complaint about the new ES. They said it looks right and feels right unlike the outgoing XV60. So no need to mourn the death of GS too much.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

So obviously when you look at old ES and GS next to each other, it is pretty obvious that GS is much superior car... it looks better and interior is a lot better (even if boring), it is very high quality.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

Well it doesn't make any difference now does it? The GS did not undercut its competition in price which is what a Lexus vehicle typically needs due to weaker brand image. So GS was never given a fair chance by Lexus itself.

On the other hand, none of those people who wanted a GS has any complaint about the new ES. They said it looks right and feels right unlike the outgoing XV60. So no need to mourn the death of GS too much.

I think this post from TheNerdyPotato on the separate Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion thread is also relevant here:

TheNerdyPotato

Anyone remember the Yaris Hybrid R concept from about 5 years ago? That was a sick little concept car. Too bad they never actually built one for production.

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-yaris-hybrid-r-420hp-hybrid-powertrain-details-revealed/

I guess the tech is still in development in some form or another. E-Four AWD is coming, and was mentioned in the OP's linked article.

Speaking of which, the OP article states that E-Four will feature 30% more torque than the current systems. A quick search on Google says that the Prius AWD has a 5kW rear axle motor while the larger Highlander features a 50kW motor. Both of those are a far cry from the dual 60HP/45kW motors on the HybridR.

I've seen a statement somewhere recently that the Avalon/ES won't be getting AWD "yet." Perhaps, it'll be on the hybrid versions. Perhaps, they'll make a HybridR-inspired version of the V6, which could be a beast with the upgraded rear axle motors and KERS-style regenerative braking.

Toyota has touted its "multiple hybrid" (some fuel economy-oriented, others geared more towards performance) strategy going forward, with the European 3rd-gen Auris clearly an example of this. Outside North America, Lexus GS buyers have had a choice of an economical GS 300h or a performance GS 450h.

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

I think this post from TheNerdyPotato on the separate Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion thread is also relevant here:

TheNerdyPotato

Anyone remember the Yaris Hybrid R concept from about 5 years ago? That was a sick little concept car. Too bad they never actually built one for production.

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-yaris-hybrid-r-420hp-hybrid-powertrain-details-revealed/

I guess the tech is still in development in some form or another. E-Four AWD is coming, and was mentioned in the OP's linked article.

Speaking of which, the OP article states that E-Four will feature 30% more torque than the current systems. A quick search on Google says that the Prius AWD has a 5kW rear axle motor while the larger Highlander features a 50kW motor. Both of those are a far cry from the dual 60HP/45kW motors on the HybridR.

I've seen a statement somewhere recently that the Avalon/ES won't be getting AWD "yet." Perhaps, it'll be on the hybrid versions. Perhaps, they'll make a HybridR-inspired version of the V6, which could be a beast with the upgraded rear axle motors and KERS-style regenerative braking.

Toyota has touted its "multiple hybrid" (some fuel economy-oriented, others geared more towards performance) strategy going forward, with the European 3rd-gen Auris clearly an example of this. Outside North America, Lexus GS buyers have had a choice of an economical GS 300h or a performance GS 450h.

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

I think this post from TheNerdyPotato on the separate Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion thread is also relevant here:

TheNerdyPotato

Anyone remember the Yaris Hybrid R concept from about 5 years ago? That was a sick little concept car. Too bad they never actually built one for production.

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-yaris-hybrid-r-420hp-hybrid-powertrain-details-revealed/

I guess the tech is still in development in some form or another. E-Four AWD is coming, and was mentioned in the OP's linked article.

Speaking of which, the OP article states that E-Four will feature 30% more torque than the current systems. A quick search on Google says that the Prius AWD has a 5kW rear axle motor while the larger Highlander features a 50kW motor. Both of those are a far cry from the dual 60HP/45kW motors on the HybridR.

I've seen a statement somewhere recently that the Avalon/ES won't be getting AWD "yet." Perhaps, it'll be on the hybrid versions. Perhaps, they'll make a HybridR-inspired version of the V6, which could be a beast with the upgraded rear axle motors and KERS-style regenerative braking.

Toyota has touted its "multiple hybrid" (some fuel economy-oriented, others geared more towards performance) strategy going forward, with the European 3rd-gen Auris clearly an example of this. Outside North America, Lexus GS buyers have had a choice of an economical GS 300h or a performance GS 450h.

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

spwolf

It is not really true though... We never had ES in Europe and still "nobody" bought GS. Everyone "wants" GS, but they dont want to pay for it over competition. It has very little to do with ES itself.

But then you look at the price and for $10k difference it is not worth it, or in the case of Europe, you get base E/A6/5 with 2.0d and much cheaper price.

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES

Ultra White & Nobel Brown.

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