The 2019 Lexus ES in Two New Colors: Moonbeam Beige Metallic & Sunlit Green

Joaquin Ruhi

I think this post from TheNerdyPotato on the separate Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion thread is also relevant here:



Toyota has touted its "multiple hybrid" (some fuel economy-oriented, others geared more towards performance) strategy going forward, with the European 3rd-gen Auris clearly an example of this. Outside North America, Lexus GS buyers have had a choice of an economical GS 300h or a performance GS 450h.

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)

Joaquin Ruhi

I think this post from TheNerdyPotato on the separate Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion thread is also relevant here:



Toyota has touted its "multiple hybrid" (some fuel economy-oriented, others geared more towards performance) strategy going forward, with the European 3rd-gen Auris clearly an example of this. Outside North America, Lexus GS buyers have had a choice of an economical GS 300h or a performance GS 450h.

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)

Joaquin Ruhi

I think this post from TheNerdyPotato on the separate Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion thread is also relevant here:



Toyota has touted its "multiple hybrid" (some fuel economy-oriented, others geared more towards performance) strategy going forward, with the European 3rd-gen Auris clearly an example of this. Outside North America, Lexus GS buyers have had a choice of an economical GS 300h or a performance GS 450h.

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)

Joaquin Ruhi

Point taken, but I do feel that I need to post some numbers which clearly show why Lexus decided to kill GS in favor of ES. A text conversation with krew last night led me to Google "2017 global Lexus sales by model", with the first result being a page on focus2move.com.

ES was, worldwide, the 3rd best-selling Lexus vehicle in 2017. Its 133,340 units sold were only exceeded by NX (148,377) and RX (163, 646). Most notably, ES was one of only 2 Lexus lines to show increased sales globally versus 2016. (ES +8% and NX +1.4%). And GS? It was #8 out of 10 Lexus lines tallied by focus2move, trailed only by RC and LS (the latter transitioning from 4th to 5th generation during 2017). Most notably, GS reported the steepest percentage drop (a 41.3% drop from 27,770 units sold globally in 2016 to 16,304 units in 2017).

With numbers like those, it's no wonder that Lexus bean counters pulled the plug on GS.

I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

Joaquin Ruhi

Point taken, but I do feel that I need to post some numbers which clearly show why Lexus decided to kill GS in favor of ES. A text conversation with krew last night led me to Google "2017 global Lexus sales by model", with the first result being a page on focus2move.com.

ES was, worldwide, the 3rd best-selling Lexus vehicle in 2017. Its 133,340 units sold were only exceeded by NX (148,377) and RX (163, 646). Most notably, ES was one of only 2 Lexus lines to show increased sales globally versus 2016. (ES +8% and NX +1.4%). And GS? It was #8 out of 10 Lexus lines tallied by focus2move, trailed only by RC and LS (the latter transitioning from 4th to 5th generation during 2017). Most notably, GS reported the steepest percentage drop (a 41.3% drop from 27,770 units sold globally in 2016 to 16,304 units in 2017).

With numbers like those, it's no wonder that Lexus bean counters pulled the plug on GS.

I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

Joaquin Ruhi

Point taken, but I do feel that I need to post some numbers which clearly show why Lexus decided to kill GS in favor of ES. A text conversation with krew last night led me to Google "2017 global Lexus sales by model", with the first result being a page on focus2move.com.

ES was, worldwide, the 3rd best-selling Lexus vehicle in 2017. Its 133,340 units sold were only exceeded by NX (148,377) and RX (163, 646). Most notably, ES was one of only 2 Lexus lines to show increased sales globally versus 2016. (ES +8% and NX +1.4%). And GS? It was #8 out of 10 Lexus lines tallied by focus2move, trailed only by RC and LS (the latter transitioning from 4th to 5th generation during 2017). Most notably, GS reported the steepest percentage drop (a 41.3% drop from 27,770 units sold globally in 2016 to 16,304 units in 2017).

With numbers like those, it's no wonder that Lexus bean counters pulled the plug on GS.

I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

TheNerdyPotato

I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)

New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.

TheNerdyPotato

I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)

New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.

TheNerdyPotato

I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)

New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.

spwolf

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

Agreed, which is why I brought up the old HybridR concept with 120hp on the rear axle.

spwolf

New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.

Oh, good. I hadn't kept up with it in a long time.

spwolf

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

Agreed, which is why I brought up the old HybridR concept with 120hp on the rear axle.

spwolf

New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.

Oh, good. I hadn't kept up with it in a long time.

spwolf

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

Agreed, which is why I brought up the old HybridR concept with 120hp on the rear axle.

spwolf

New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.

Oh, good. I hadn't kept up with it in a long time.

spwolf

I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

ES needs AWD not for performance, but just for grip in winter. Most sold AWD CUVs are not performance oriented.

spwolf

I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

ES needs AWD not for performance, but just for grip in winter. Most sold AWD CUVs are not performance oriented.

spwolf

I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.

ES needs AWD not for performance, but just for grip in winter. Most sold AWD CUVs are not performance oriented.

Car Fan

• ES has Carplay and Alexa. The LS doesn't!

Well Corolla has CarPlay too? :).

I also bet that LS will actually get CarPlay sooner than ES? But they cant say that since it would make people wait for it.

Car Fan

• ES has Carplay and Alexa. The LS doesn't!

Well Corolla has CarPlay too? :).

I also bet that LS will actually get CarPlay sooner than ES? But they cant say that since it would make people wait for it.

Car Fan

• ES has Carplay and Alexa. The LS doesn't!

Well Corolla has CarPlay too? :).

I also bet that LS will actually get CarPlay sooner than ES? But they cant say that since it would make people wait for it.

krew

Lexus doesn't see the ES as a GS replacement, we don't see the ES as a GS replacement. If this had been communicated up front, we could have avoided all the comparisons and appreciated the new ES for what it is.

The failures of the GS rest with the model itself and what Lexus did/didn't do to support it. Couple that with a US market that no longer interested in cars, and...

That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun). Lexus never gave any hints that that was going to be the case, and it's pretty silly to hold them to something they never said would be the case. If I made a thread where we all decided the next IS should transform into a humanoid robot that looks like Akio Toyoda we can't very well be angry at Lexus when that doesn't happen.

The 7ES taken strictly as a new ES looks to me like another home run. I still wouldn't be surprised if they introduced some sort of AWD version a bit later (maybe at the refresh) because it's such an obvious thing for many markets (parts of the US and all of Canada and Russia). As @Levi said it doesn't need to be performance AWD, just "move the car when it's in snow" AWD.

krew

Lexus doesn't see the ES as a GS replacement, we don't see the ES as a GS replacement. If this had been communicated up front, we could have avoided all the comparisons and appreciated the new ES for what it is.

The failures of the GS rest with the model itself and what Lexus did/didn't do to support it. Couple that with a US market that no longer interested in cars, and...

That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun). Lexus never gave any hints that that was going to be the case, and it's pretty silly to hold them to something they never said would be the case. If I made a thread where we all decided the next IS should transform into a humanoid robot that looks like Akio Toyoda we can't very well be angry at Lexus when that doesn't happen.

The 7ES taken strictly as a new ES looks to me like another home run. I still wouldn't be surprised if they introduced some sort of AWD version a bit later (maybe at the refresh) because it's such an obvious thing for many markets (parts of the US and all of Canada and Russia). As @Levi said it doesn't need to be performance AWD, just "move the car when it's in snow" AWD.

krew

Lexus doesn't see the ES as a GS replacement, we don't see the ES as a GS replacement. If this had been communicated up front, we could have avoided all the comparisons and appreciated the new ES for what it is.

The failures of the GS rest with the model itself and what Lexus did/didn't do to support it. Couple that with a US market that no longer interested in cars, and...

That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun). Lexus never gave any hints that that was going to be the case, and it's pretty silly to hold them to something they never said would be the case. If I made a thread where we all decided the next IS should transform into a humanoid robot that looks like Akio Toyoda we can't very well be angry at Lexus when that doesn't happen.

The 7ES taken strictly as a new ES looks to me like another home run. I still wouldn't be surprised if they introduced some sort of AWD version a bit later (maybe at the refresh) because it's such an obvious thing for many markets (parts of the US and all of Canada and Russia). As @Levi said it doesn't need to be performance AWD, just "move the car when it's in snow" AWD.

Ian Schmidt

That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun).

There's a thin line between "the ES is replacing the GS" and "the GS is being cancelled and the ES will remain", and we all tripped over it. :joy:

Ian Schmidt

That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun).

There's a thin line between "the ES is replacing the GS" and "the GS is being cancelled and the ES will remain", and we all tripped over it. :joy:

Ian Schmidt

That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun).

There's a thin line between "the ES is replacing the GS" and "the GS is being cancelled and the ES will remain", and we all tripped over it. :joy:

With all that been said, I think currently Toyota has a better Idea of what they are aiming for in their Line up. The new corolla and Rav 4 is a testament to this.
As for Lexus IMO everything released this Year is just a placeholder. Lets put something new out there for now to keep the cash flowing in while figure out all this mess. Lets start from the RXL (why not wait for the RX redesign to build a proper RXL from scratch?) LX 2 row (Lets make more money flow in. GX owner can upgrade also) LS (even though it's new we can all agree there is something incomplete about it. Be it legroom, car play, engine name it. I still feel like there is a V8 somewhere for the LS and I hope is not just for an LSF). I actually like the new ES for what it is and not as GS replacement.

So IMO 2020 is the year to be on the lookout for when talking about significant expectation from Lexus (Tokyo 2020)

With all that been said, I think currently Toyota has a better Idea of what they are aiming for in their Line up. The new corolla and Rav 4 is a testament to this.
As for Lexus IMO everything released this Year is just a placeholder. Lets put something new out there for now to keep the cash flowing in while figure out all this mess. Lets start from the RXL (why not wait for the RX redesign to build a proper RXL from scratch?) LX 2 row (Lets make more money flow in. GX owner can upgrade also) LS (even though it's new we can all agree there is something incomplete about it. Be it legroom, car play, engine name it. I still feel like there is a V8 somewhere for the LS and I hope is not just for an LSF). I actually like the new ES for what it is and not as GS replacement.

So IMO 2020 is the year to be on the lookout for when talking about significant expectation from Lexus (Tokyo 2020)

With all that been said, I think currently Toyota has a better Idea of what they are aiming for in their Line up. The new corolla and Rav 4 is a testament to this.
As for Lexus IMO everything released this Year is just a placeholder. Lets put something new out there for now to keep the cash flowing in while figure out all this mess. Lets start from the RXL (why not wait for the RX redesign to build a proper RXL from scratch?) LX 2 row (Lets make more money flow in. GX owner can upgrade also) LS (even though it's new we can all agree there is something incomplete about it. Be it legroom, car play, engine name it. I still feel like there is a V8 somewhere for the LS and I hope is not just for an LSF). I actually like the new ES for what it is and not as GS replacement.

So IMO 2020 is the year to be on the lookout for when talking about significant expectation from Lexus (Tokyo 2020)

I know this isn't adding much, but I would just like to say I never believed the GS was going to get totally cancelled. The many heated discussions over the GS being cancelled that have happened here (which has never been confirmed at all) remind me of the rumor that appeared during 4GS development that many people believed (and some still do). The famous rumor years ago that during 4GS development, Akio Toyoda wanted to cancel the GS completely. This was never fully substantiated, and even Akio Toyoda himself in an obscure interview confirmed it was never his intention. He only implied to the development team of the 4GS he considered cancelling it because initial 4GS efforts left him disappointed. That implication lit a symbolic fire under the development team, and the result was the 4GS that we actually got to market, with its class-leading chassis and excellent interior.

Throughout Toyota Motor Company's history, cancelling a model line completely has always been extremely rare. Let's look on the Lexus side. The SC was never completely cancelled. It reappeared as the 2nd gen SC, and more recently it has "reappeared" in a reimagined way as the LC. Let's be honest, the LC is the spiritual successor to the SC. The CT was never truly cancelled, as it lives on in other overseas markets. The HS is the only model that one can argue was truly cancelled. Yet on the other hand, it is also arguable that the CT is extremely similar to the HS, and that the HS possibly lives on through the CT.

This new ES is great as an ES. Love the rear seat details, the wood and leather steering wheel, and the different color options. Also did anyone else catch the Shimamoku and bamboo wood available as options? Love that some LS options have now appeared on the ES. The F-Sport interior in all black looks really bland, I agree. Also really like the exterior. I eagerly await further details in a full press release. Not surprised no new V6, looks like the TNGA workhorse V6 engine isn't ready yet. It will debut somewhere soon enough, just not now. Likely on a mid-cycle refresh, or simply some new generation. I don't get some of the criticism of the details of the car. If you're expecting an LS for ES money, that's absolutely impossible. If you expect an LS, well that already exists. For ES money though, this new ES is really excellent.

As for the GS, what will I think will happen personally with the 5GS? I think it will go on hiatus, and then reappear as a further upmarket '4-door coupe' type sedan. I think it's likely the GS will lose its traditional shape. The 3GS hinted at a '4-door coupe' look, but that model was too small, impractical, and the styling didn't fully work. If they grow the GS from 4GS size, they can make a very elegant, very unique high-end midsize prestige sedan.

I know this isn't adding much, but I would just like to say I never believed the GS was going to get totally cancelled. The many heated discussions over the GS being cancelled that have happened here (which has never been confirmed at all) remind me of the rumor that appeared during 4GS development that many people believed (and some still do). The famous rumor years ago that during 4GS development, Akio Toyoda wanted to cancel the GS completely. This was never fully substantiated, and even Akio Toyoda himself in an obscure interview confirmed it was never his intention. He only implied to the development team of the 4GS he considered cancelling it because initial 4GS efforts left him disappointed. That implication lit a symbolic fire under the development team, and the result was the 4GS that we actually got to market, with its class-leading chassis and excellent interior.

Throughout Toyota Motor Company's history, cancelling a model line completely has always been extremely rare. Let's look on the Lexus side. The SC was never completely cancelled. It reappeared as the 2nd gen SC, and more recently it has "reappeared" in a reimagined way as the LC. Let's be honest, the LC is the spiritual successor to the SC. The CT was never truly cancelled, as it lives on in other overseas markets. The HS is the only model that one can argue was truly cancelled. Yet on the other hand, it is also arguable that the CT is extremely similar to the HS, and that the HS possibly lives on through the CT.

This new ES is great as an ES. Love the rear seat details, the wood and leather steering wheel, and the different color options. Also did anyone else catch the Shimamoku and bamboo wood available as options? Love that some LS options have now appeared on the ES. The F-Sport interior in all black looks really bland, I agree. Also really like the exterior. I eagerly await further details in a full press release. Not surprised no new V6, looks like the TNGA workhorse V6 engine isn't ready yet. It will debut somewhere soon enough, just not now. Likely on a mid-cycle refresh, or simply some new generation. I don't get some of the criticism of the details of the car. If you're expecting an LS for ES money, that's absolutely impossible. If you expect an LS, well that already exists. For ES money though, this new ES is really excellent.

As for the GS, what will I think will happen personally with the 5GS? I think it will go on hiatus, and then reappear as a further upmarket '4-door coupe' type sedan. I think it's likely the GS will lose its traditional shape. The 3GS hinted at a '4-door coupe' look, but that model was too small, impractical, and the styling didn't fully work. If they grow the GS from 4GS size, they can make a very elegant, very unique high-end midsize prestige sedan.

I know this isn't adding much, but I would just like to say I never believed the GS was going to get totally cancelled. The many heated discussions over the GS being cancelled that have happened here (which has never been confirmed at all) remind me of the rumor that appeared during 4GS development that many people believed (and some still do). The famous rumor years ago that during 4GS development, Akio Toyoda wanted to cancel the GS completely. This was never fully substantiated, and even Akio Toyoda himself in an obscure interview confirmed it was never his intention. He only implied to the development team of the 4GS he considered cancelling it because initial 4GS efforts left him disappointed. That implication lit a symbolic fire under the development team, and the result was the 4GS that we actually got to market, with its class-leading chassis and excellent interior.

Throughout Toyota Motor Company's history, cancelling a model line completely has always been extremely rare. Let's look on the Lexus side. The SC was never completely cancelled. It reappeared as the 2nd gen SC, and more recently it has "reappeared" in a reimagined way as the LC. Let's be honest, the LC is the spiritual successor to the SC. The CT was never truly cancelled, as it lives on in other overseas markets. The HS is the only model that one can argue was truly cancelled. Yet on the other hand, it is also arguable that the CT is extremely similar to the HS, and that the HS possibly lives on through the CT.

This new ES is great as an ES. Love the rear seat details, the wood and leather steering wheel, and the different color options. Also did anyone else catch the Shimamoku and bamboo wood available as options? Love that some LS options have now appeared on the ES. The F-Sport interior in all black looks really bland, I agree. Also really like the exterior. I eagerly await further details in a full press release. Not surprised no new V6, looks like the TNGA workhorse V6 engine isn't ready yet. It will debut somewhere soon enough, just not now. Likely on a mid-cycle refresh, or simply some new generation. I don't get some of the criticism of the details of the car. If you're expecting an LS for ES money, that's absolutely impossible. If you expect an LS, well that already exists. For ES money though, this new ES is really excellent.

As for the GS, what will I think will happen personally with the 5GS? I think it will go on hiatus, and then reappear as a further upmarket '4-door coupe' type sedan. I think it's likely the GS will lose its traditional shape. The 3GS hinted at a '4-door coupe' look, but that model was too small, impractical, and the styling didn't fully work. If they grow the GS from 4GS size, they can make a very elegant, very unique high-end midsize prestige sedan.