Comparing the New Lexus ES & Lexus LS Sedans

Posted by Kevin on April 18th, 2018

The next-generation Lexus ES has been revealed, and the similarities with the exterior design of the LS flagship are undeniable — let’s put them side-by-side for a comparison:

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Front

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Side

There are so many shared design cues that pointing out the differences turns into a game of its own — the headlights, the grille pattern, the lack of a chrome samurai blade along the bottom of the doors.

Overall, the ES is softer in its curves and less articulated in its angles, but this should be expected and even preferred. After all, the LS is the Lexus sedan flagship and can’t give away all its secrets.

(Special thanks to RAL on the forums for this post idea!)

Lexus ES: Sixth GenerationLexus LS: Fourth Generation
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Comments
krew
Gecko
A spread like this covers the current ES and GS, while also tucking neatly under the LS's $75,000 base price while offering a similar model breakout. If Lexus does price and package the car like this, it will put a major hurting on the E Class, A6 and even 5er, IMO. The Mercedes and BMW have become astronomically expensive over the last few years and I don't think FWD/RWD is a major purchase point for 90% of buyers.
I think someone might have missed their calling as a product planner! Great ideas here, @Gecko!
krew
Gecko
A spread like this covers the current ES and GS, while also tucking neatly under the LS's $75,000 base price while offering a similar model breakout. If Lexus does price and package the car like this, it will put a major hurting on the E Class, A6 and even 5er, IMO. The Mercedes and BMW have become astronomically expensive over the last few years and I don't think FWD/RWD is a major purchase point for 90% of buyers.
I think someone might have missed their calling as a product planner! Great ideas here, @Gecko!
S
The first wave of ES won't debut with all models and trims at the same time. The early models will probably be the ES250, 300h, and NA-spec 350. Later drivetrain options is really going to be hard to predict. AWD is unknown because we don't know if there's going to be a full-time system designed specifically for high power (transverse) applications.

I have a mixed feeling about the ES launch this year. If we don't get another powertrain announcement before May, then it means the ES will use Avalon powertrain (which includes carried-over engine and no AWD) for the near future. It would be a weak launch for a very important product since the entire world is going to pile on it not being a sufficient GS replacement. Just like how the LS launch is not considered a particularly strong one due to the absence of V8. Let's hope for a better scenario.

Gecko
A spread like this covers the current ES and GS, while also tucking neatly under the LS's $75,000 base price while offering a similar model breakout. If Lexus does price and package the car like this, it will put a major hurting on the E Class, A6 and even 5er, IMO. The Mercedes and BMW have become astronomically expensive over the last few years and I don't think FWD/RWD is a major purchase point for 90% of buyers.
Why leave out a F-Sport with V35A? It would sufficiently replace the role of GS-F at a lower price point (say, $65-70k). I don't mean it will replace the GS-F, but just offers a performance vehicle at a more accessible price point. The '43 AMG' territory really seems like the sweetspot for performance vehicles from a sales perspective.
S
The first wave of ES won't debut with all models and trims at the same time. The early models will probably be the ES250, 300h, and NA-spec 350. Later drivetrain options is really going to be hard to predict. AWD is unknown because we don't know if there's going to be a full-time system designed specifically for high power (transverse) applications.

I have a mixed feeling about the ES launch this year. If we don't get another powertrain announcement before May, then it means the ES will use Avalon powertrain (which includes carried-over engine and no AWD) for the near future. It would be a weak launch for a very important product since the entire world is going to pile on it not being a sufficient GS replacement. Just like how the LS launch is not considered a particularly strong one due to the absence of V8. Let's hope for a better scenario.

Gecko
A spread like this covers the current ES and GS, while also tucking neatly under the LS's $75,000 base price while offering a similar model breakout. If Lexus does price and package the car like this, it will put a major hurting on the E Class, A6 and even 5er, IMO. The Mercedes and BMW have become astronomically expensive over the last few years and I don't think FWD/RWD is a major purchase point for 90% of buyers.
Why leave out a F-Sport with V35A? It would sufficiently replace the role of GS-F at a lower price point (say, $65-70k). I don't mean it will replace the GS-F, but just offers a performance vehicle at a more accessible price point. The '43 AMG' territory really seems like the sweetspot for performance vehicles from a sales perspective.
Gecko
ssun30
Why leave out a F-Sport with V35A? It would sufficiently replace the role of GS-F at a lower price point (say, $65-70k). I don't mean it will replace the GS-F, but just offers a performance vehicle at a more accessible price point. The '43 AMG' territory really seems like the sweetspot for performance vehicles from a sales perspective.
Are you talking about ES F or ES F-Sport? F-Sport cars never have an engine upgrade, and I doubt the V6 used in the ES will be the V35A-FTS. That engine could work for an ES F but...

1) The GS F was already ridiculed enough for having 125hp less than the competition. A 416hp ES F would be even worse from a marketing/halo perspective.

2) I'm still shooting blind with upper level V6 and AWD options, so I think 416hp/442lb-ft might be a stretch for what is an FWD platform at heart.

If there's a plan for a true active AWD system and that chassis can support more power, then I say keep the weight as low as possible bring on the ES F.
Gecko
ssun30
Why leave out a F-Sport with V35A? It would sufficiently replace the role of GS-F at a lower price point (say, $65-70k). I don't mean it will replace the GS-F, but just offers a performance vehicle at a more accessible price point. The '43 AMG' territory really seems like the sweetspot for performance vehicles from a sales perspective.
Are you talking about ES F or ES F-Sport? F-Sport cars never have an engine upgrade, and I doubt the V6 used in the ES will be the V35A-FTS. That engine could work for an ES F but...

1) The GS F was already ridiculed enough for having 125hp less than the competition. A 416hp ES F would be even worse from a marketing/halo perspective.

2) I'm still shooting blind with upper level V6 and AWD options, so I think 416hp/442lb-ft might be a stretch for what is an FWD platform at heart.

If there's a plan for a true active AWD system and that chassis can support more power, then I say keep the weight as low as possible bring on the ES F.
krew
Gecko
If there's a plan for a true active AWD system and that chassis can support more power, then I say keep the weight as low as possible bring on the ES F.
:scream: ES F. The whole world is turning upside down!
krew
Gecko
If there's a plan for a true active AWD system and that chassis can support more power, then I say keep the weight as low as possible bring on the ES F.
:scream: ES F. The whole world is turning upside down!
S
Gecko
F-Sport cars never have an engine upgrade.
It doesn't have to stay that way. Maybe Lexus figured they could charge a larger premium but still undercut competitor prices if it does offer an engine upgrade. In the drivetrain decode thread we found there's likely no V6 below the V35A-FTS, so my guess will only make sense if Lexus does not plan to introduce the 350-400hp range ES in the near future (i.e. the 'top mainstream' ES is a 3.5 or 2.0T and does not go above $60k).

416hp certainly won't be enough for a F-car and will be a F-sport only. I don't think they will seriously consider an ES-F. The market for $80k+ mid-size super sedans is very limited. Most AMG buyers take an E43 instead of the 63.

Basically my reasoning is that this ES F-Sport is something they can make NOW and launch on Day One. Such a model will shut down a lot of criticism on replacing the GS and will allow the ES to tap into a higher margin segment. It makes sense both from a PR perspective and a financial perspective. Not making it and waiting for the intermediate engine, however, will be perceived as a weakness.
S
Gecko
F-Sport cars never have an engine upgrade.
It doesn't have to stay that way. Maybe Lexus figured they could charge a larger premium but still undercut competitor prices if it does offer an engine upgrade. In the drivetrain decode thread we found there's likely no V6 below the V35A-FTS, so my guess will only make sense if Lexus does not plan to introduce the 350-400hp range ES in the near future (i.e. the 'top mainstream' ES is a 3.5 or 2.0T and does not go above $60k).

416hp certainly won't be enough for a F-car and will be a F-sport only. I don't think they will seriously consider an ES-F. The market for $80k+ mid-size super sedans is very limited. Most AMG buyers take an E43 instead of the 63.

Basically my reasoning is that this ES F-Sport is something they can make NOW and launch on Day One. Such a model will shut down a lot of criticism on replacing the GS and will allow the ES to tap into a higher margin segment. It makes sense both from a PR perspective and a financial perspective. Not making it and waiting for the intermediate engine, however, will be perceived as a weakness.
Gecko
@ssun30 I love this idea and hope they do it!

My personal assumption is the engine between the A25A and V35A will be a turbo 3.0L V6. Why? ToMoCo has a lot of vehicles to power with that engine, and many of them are trucks and SUVs:

Highlander
4Runner
Tacoma
Tundra
RX
GX, if replaced
LF-1, if they so decide
LS in global markets
ES
RC

Knowing Toyota's rigorous standards for powertrain development and longevity, I think powering something like a 4Runner or Tundra might be a bit taxing for a TT I4 over time. Not to mention, I think anything under 6 cylinders is a turn off for your average Tacoma, 4Runner and Tundra buyer.

That's going to be a workhorse engine across many of their North American vehicles, so I assume it'll be a 6 instead of a 4. For most of the rest of the world, the new 2.0T is probably enough engine for gasoline propulsion.
Gecko
@ssun30 I love this idea and hope they do it!

My personal assumption is the engine between the A25A and V35A will be a turbo 3.0L V6. Why? ToMoCo has a lot of vehicles to power with that engine, and many of them are trucks and SUVs:

Highlander
4Runner
Tacoma
Tundra
RX
GX, if replaced
LF-1, if they so decide
LS in global markets
ES
RC

Knowing Toyota's rigorous standards for powertrain development and longevity, I think powering something like a 4Runner or Tundra might be a bit taxing for a TT I4 over time. Not to mention, I think anything under 6 cylinders is a turn off for your average Tacoma, 4Runner and Tundra buyer.

That's going to be a workhorse engine across many of their North American vehicles, so I assume it'll be a 6 instead of a 4. For most of the rest of the world, the new 2.0T is probably enough engine for gasoline propulsion.
S
Gecko
That's going to be a workhorse engine across many of their North American vehicles, so I assume it'll be a 6 instead of a 4.
Sure it can happen, TMC could be intentionally using smoke and mirrors in that image.
S
Gecko
That's going to be a workhorse engine across many of their North American vehicles, so I assume it'll be a 6 instead of a 4.
Sure it can happen, TMC could be intentionally using smoke and mirrors in that image.
S
I think we all need to stop thinking inside the box... nobody will be annoyed if we had ES F with 416hp bi-turbo engine and AWD for $60k well optioned.

Audi has been doing it for decades now.

Lexus does not have to be held to some impossible standards to meet.
S
I think we all need to stop thinking inside the box... nobody will be annoyed if we had ES F with 416hp bi-turbo engine and AWD for $60k well optioned.

Audi has been doing it for decades now.

Lexus does not have to be held to some impossible standards to meet.
B
spwolf
Maybe some specific market had them which is why they show up in carsalesbase database, but actual competitor to Mazda 6 and Euro Accord and middle class (Passat, Mondeo, Vectra/Insignia) were Corona, Carina and then Avensis, and thats going back to late 60's.

There are some possibly valid rumors that next-gen international Camry will come to Europe and replace Avensis due to low sales in failing sedan market, so that might actually end up being true in the future. Question then is what will Burnaston factory then produce?
The Camry was available in Europe until 2004, even longer in some select markets. It was placed a class higher than those cars you've mentioned and competed with similar offerings from mainstream makes (e.g. Honda Legend, Opel Omega...) and to some lesser degree with offerings from premium makes.
B
spwolf
Maybe some specific market had them which is why they show up in carsalesbase database, but actual competitor to Mazda 6 and Euro Accord and middle class (Passat, Mondeo, Vectra/Insignia) were Corona, Carina and then Avensis, and thats going back to late 60's.

There are some possibly valid rumors that next-gen international Camry will come to Europe and replace Avensis due to low sales in failing sedan market, so that might actually end up being true in the future. Question then is what will Burnaston factory then produce?
The Camry was available in Europe until 2004, even longer in some select markets. It was placed a class higher than those cars you've mentioned and competed with similar offerings from mainstream makes (e.g. Honda Legend, Opel Omega...) and to some lesser degree with offerings from premium makes.
S
BenzCity
The Camry was available in Europe until 2004, even longer in some select markets. It was placed a class higher than those cars you've mentioned and competed with similar offerings from mainstream makes (e.g. Honda Legend, Opel Omega...) and to some lesser degree with offerings from premium makes.
is this in Germany? Wasnt around here...
S
BenzCity
The Camry was available in Europe until 2004, even longer in some select markets. It was placed a class higher than those cars you've mentioned and competed with similar offerings from mainstream makes (e.g. Honda Legend, Opel Omega...) and to some lesser degree with offerings from premium makes.
is this in Germany? Wasnt around here...
B
spwolf
is this in Germany? Wasnt around here...
It was definitely officially sold in Germany. According to German Wikipedia it was available until 2004 and I have seen a few Camry wagons here. Pretty sure it was also available in other Western European markets.
B
spwolf
is this in Germany? Wasnt around here...
It was definitely officially sold in Germany. According to German Wikipedia it was available until 2004 and I have seen a few Camry wagons here. Pretty sure it was also available in other Western European markets.
Rob_LexusTech
im looking forward to the ES redesign. however, i really hope it dose not look like a little LS. the ES isnt my favorite of them all but i like the current one. its only sin is that its FWD. if they made the ES RWD, it would be a damn fun car to drive considering that it really rips when its stomped on.

right now every lexus model is unique and has its own identity. im hoping it stays that way.

i think the next ES will absolutley have a 4cyl base model, probably a turbo, mid tier and lux/UL will have the 3.5 v6.

looking forward to seeing a sportier faster ES, but i really REALLY hope they dont kill the GS. besides, thats only still a rumor, right?
Rob_LexusTech
im looking forward to the ES redesign. however, i really hope it dose not look like a little LS. the ES isnt my favorite of them all but i like the current one. its only sin is that its FWD. if they made the ES RWD, it would be a damn fun car to drive considering that it really rips when its stomped on.

right now every lexus model is unique and has its own identity. im hoping it stays that way.

i think the next ES will absolutley have a 4cyl base model, probably a turbo, mid tier and lux/UL will have the 3.5 v6.

looking forward to seeing a sportier faster ES, but i really REALLY hope they dont kill the GS. besides, thats only still a rumor, right?
krew
spwolf
I think we all need to stop thinking inside the box... nobody will be annoyed if we had ES F with 416hp bi-turbo engine and AWD for $60k well optioned.

Audi has been doing it for decades now.

Lexus does not have to be held to some impossible standards to meet.
An ES F is a concept I have no trouble with, but it would have to be a worthy addition to the F brand. I wouldn't want something that waters down the high-performance lineup.

It all depends on how well the next-generation model handles.
krew
spwolf
I think we all need to stop thinking inside the box... nobody will be annoyed if we had ES F with 416hp bi-turbo engine and AWD for $60k well optioned.

Audi has been doing it for decades now.

Lexus does not have to be held to some impossible standards to meet.
An ES F is a concept I have no trouble with, but it would have to be a worthy addition to the F brand. I wouldn't want something that waters down the high-performance lineup.

It all depends on how well the next-generation model handles.
S
krew
An ES F is a concept I have no trouble with, but it would have to be a worthy addition to the F brand. I wouldn't want something that waters down the high-performance lineup.

It all depends on how well the next-generation model handles.
Customers dont care about "watering the brand" though. Lexus F brand is not selling their sedans at all. RC and GS sales are really bad these days, despite well reviewed GS-F for instance.

If Mercedes can have AMG versions with less than 400hp, so can Lexus. (C43 anyone?)

Nobody ever thought S4, S6 watered the brand, even with significant power deficit compared to the RS as well as M and AMG cars... Everyone actually loves it.
S
krew
An ES F is a concept I have no trouble with, but it would have to be a worthy addition to the F brand. I wouldn't want something that waters down the high-performance lineup.

It all depends on how well the next-generation model handles.
Customers dont care about "watering the brand" though. Lexus F brand is not selling their sedans at all. RC and GS sales are really bad these days, despite well reviewed GS-F for instance.

If Mercedes can have AMG versions with less than 400hp, so can Lexus. (C43 anyone?)

Nobody ever thought S4, S6 watered the brand, even with significant power deficit compared to the RS as well as M and AMG cars... Everyone actually loves it.
T
Rob_LexusTech
im looking forward to the ES redesign. however, i really hope it dose not look like a little LS. the ES isnt my favorite of them all but i like the current one. its only sin is that its FWD. if they made the ES RWD, it would be a damn fun car to drive considering that it really rips when its stomped on.
RWD seems unlikely. I'm guessing it'll be a FWD based on TNGA, similar to the 2018 Camry. Best we can hope for is optional AWD.
T
Rob_LexusTech
im looking forward to the ES redesign. however, i really hope it dose not look like a little LS. the ES isnt my favorite of them all but i like the current one. its only sin is that its FWD. if they made the ES RWD, it would be a damn fun car to drive considering that it really rips when its stomped on.
RWD seems unlikely. I'm guessing it'll be a FWD based on TNGA, similar to the 2018 Camry. Best we can hope for is optional AWD.

T