Next-Generation Lexus ES Sedan Revealed!

With all these cylinder cutting and efficiency maximization (at the cost of smoothness), I think we just have a better excuse to buy full electric.

That's so bland looking... good luck pulling GS customers.

That's so bland looking... good luck pulling GS customers.

Gecko

That's so bland looking... good luck pulling GS customers.

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

Gecko

That's so bland looking... good luck pulling GS customers.

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I can't quite agree. The GS actually looks fresher. The F-sport and F hide their sizes well and look compact and agile. Athletic and aggressive is the message.

This render looks like a heavily watered-down LS: too predictable, too safe. It doesn't even try to look athletic. It's just an ES. It's not an ES bearing the mission of replacing the GS.

And what are these black plastic vents doing on a premium sedan? They don't belong there!

spwolf

is it really? To me it looks much nicer than current GS.... but then again, current GS is from 2012 basically (or 2008-2009 if we go by when was design finalized?). Time has not been kind to the GS.

I can't quite agree. The GS actually looks fresher. The F-sport and F hide their sizes well and look compact and agile. Athletic and aggressive is the message.

This render looks like a heavily watered-down LS: too predictable, too safe. It doesn't even try to look athletic. It's just an ES. It's not an ES bearing the mission of replacing the GS.

And what are these black plastic vents doing on a premium sedan? They don't belong there!

^well said.

^well said.

Gecko

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

Gecko

I was talking to krew about this before... perhaps I expected something different from what Lexus will deliver, but with the ES moving up to replace the GS, I expected something with a little more aggression and personality. This is very typical "ES" - a standard Lexus front end, generic looking rear and a fairly generic side profile. The last two generations of GS have been poorly handled by Lexus, but they had a flair of aggression this render is missing. It just looks like an ES... not a car that will replace the GS in any way.

I want to just dismiss this as a render, but for anyone who has been following the spy shots, this seems very true to form and I bet it's 95% accurate.

As a former GS owner and someone who knows many 4GS owners, I do not see this car being capable of attracting them after the 4GS departs.

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

spwolf

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. This is a business at the end of the day, and ES is the better case -- period. What will be immensely problematic for Lexus is going to be the global media reaction to this car. You can say I'm reading tea leaves and no, we haven't seen the final car yet and there is still much unknown about it, but...

If they introduce an ES that looks like this and remove the GS completely, this new ES will be torn to shreds by the major media in the US, let alone Europe. Lexus will state the competitive set is the A6 and E Class, and it will probably not fare very well against either. Let alone the 5 Series and whatever Genesis model it competes against... G80? E class is more elegant as a scaled down S class, and the A6 - while also bland - looks more aggressive and has better detailing and execution. US media will probably compare it most directly to the Buick LaCross. There will certainly be a FWD model of ES, but who knows what type of AWD will be offered - we can speculate all day. I am not expecting a transverse mounted engine considering the long front overhang we've seen in spy pictures, and that's sad because it would likely help how the car drives by eliminating torque steer.

All of the media reviews will mourn the loss of the GS and say that the ES is not as good of a car as Mercedes and Audi. Too boring, too bland, FWD, doesn't drive well, etc. Then it will be more expensive than the Buick, and they'll probably complain about that too.

Now, we can also say that media doesn't matter. Does it? I think yes, and I think Lexus underestimates the value of positive PR quite heavily. You will bring up all of the positive press for the Honda Accord and how that hasn't translated into sales. There are lots of other important factors like leasing and financing options, and a polarizing design.

My point is this: This ES will surely continue to be successful, and it will continue to sell to people who have bought ESs in the past. However, that is a bit if a niche market in between RWD entry level sedans and midsize premium sedans like E, A6, 5er, etc. Lexus has been able to cover all of those bases with IS, niche ES, and GS, but when they remove GS... it just doesn't seem that they've done enough to properly elevate the ES if it looks like this. This car will not sell to the GS buyer, and quite frankly, I am not sure it will really compete with E Class. FWD A6 variants? Maybe.

spwolf

Here is why though:
1. ES works. Best selling sedan worldwide. It gets more of the same, just more and better and newer. It works. It competes much better against what has become a fleet sedan market essentially. It is quiet, not offensive, luxurious, fast enough and frugal and has a lot of space in the back. In fact, this is what every LS owner now says they want - they dont want unique looks, sporty handling or fast response... they just want big luxury barge that sails through roads, dont they? Seems like perfect vehicle for typical Lexus driver. Plus with TNGA, it will actually handle fine unlike before. I am sure interior will exceed previous version by far.

2. 3GS and 4GS did not work. It ggot 2 generations that were different and still did not work. I had 2007 GS and I liked the car. 2012 was better in every way, it had a lot of space in the back, it handled best in class... and still did not work for Lexus. At the time, I liked 2012 model a lot. F Sport especially. Now it looks very conservative vehicle. Updates actually made it look worse.

They cant really win, can they? If they release 5GS as 4 door coupe, then people will complain about lack of space in the back, like they do with LS. Some wont like unique looks. Some will say it is bumpy and they dont want to hear sound of the engine. How can they win ever?

It wont be too wrong for them to cut their losses. But they wont because their RWD cars make sense since they sell 3 of them + new SUV. But yeah, I bet many people will complain that new GS is too sporty and lacks headroom with pano roof.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. This is a business at the end of the day, and ES is the better case -- period. What will be immensely problematic for Lexus is going to be the global media reaction to this car. You can say I'm reading tea leaves and no, we haven't seen the final car yet and there is still much unknown about it, but...

If they introduce an ES that looks like this and remove the GS completely, this new ES will be torn to shreds by the major media in the US, let alone Europe. Lexus will state the competitive set is the A6 and E Class, and it will probably not fare very well against either. Let alone the 5 Series and whatever Genesis model it competes against... G80? E class is more elegant as a scaled down S class, and the A6 - while also bland - looks more aggressive and has better detailing and execution. US media will probably compare it most directly to the Buick LaCross. There will certainly be a FWD model of ES, but who knows what type of AWD will be offered - we can speculate all day. I am not expecting a transverse mounted engine considering the long front overhang we've seen in spy pictures, and that's sad because it would likely help how the car drives by eliminating torque steer.

All of the media reviews will mourn the loss of the GS and say that the ES is not as good of a car as Mercedes and Audi. Too boring, too bland, FWD, doesn't drive well, etc. Then it will be more expensive than the Buick, and they'll probably complain about that too.

Now, we can also say that media doesn't matter. Does it? I think yes, and I think Lexus underestimates the value of positive PR quite heavily. You will bring up all of the positive press for the Honda Accord and how that hasn't translated into sales. There are lots of other important factors like leasing and financing options, and a polarizing design.

My point is this: This ES will surely continue to be successful, and it will continue to sell to people who have bought ESs in the past. However, that is a bit if a niche market in between RWD entry level sedans and midsize premium sedans like E, A6, 5er, etc. Lexus has been able to cover all of those bases with IS, niche ES, and GS, but when they remove GS... it just doesn't seem that they've done enough to properly elevate the ES if it looks like this. This car will not sell to the GS buyer, and quite frankly, I am not sure it will really compete with E Class. FWD A6 variants? Maybe.

Yes. The point is not about whether the ES will be successful. It already is and will continue to be. We are saying this doesn't look good enough as a GS replacement. If the ES couldn't get more (or outright lose) buyers in that segment, then it had failed its mission. It will succeed in being an ES, but probably fail in becoming 'more than an ES'. That's what we are concerned about.
That being said, as a 5ES owner I don't care that much. As long as they can offer a four-seat 'super-lux' trim I will buy one in a heartbeat (otherwise an Alphard). I've given up on the V6 and just have to accept the downgrade to an I4 hybrid

Yes. The point is not about whether the ES will be successful. It already is and will continue to be. We are saying this doesn't look good enough as a GS replacement. If the ES couldn't get more (or outright lose) buyers in that segment, then it had failed its mission. It will succeed in being an ES, but probably fail in becoming 'more than an ES'. That's what we are concerned about.
That being said, as a 5ES owner I don't care that much. As long as they can offer a four-seat 'super-lux' trim I will buy one in a heartbeat (otherwise an Alphard). I've given up on the V6 and just have to accept the downgrade to an I4 hybrid

Gecko

All of the media reviews will mourn the loss of the GS and say that the ES is not as good of a car as Mercedes and Audi. Too boring, too bland, FWD, doesn't drive well, etc. Then it will be more expensive than the Buick, and they'll probably complain about that too.

Now, we can also say that media doesn't matter. Does it? I think yes, and I think Lexus underestimates the value of positive PR quite heavily. You will bring up all of the positive press for the Honda Accord and how that hasn't translated into sales. There are lots of other important factors like leasing and financing options, and a polarizing design.

My point is this: This ES will surely continue to be successful, and it will continue to sell to people who have bought ESs in the past. However, that is a bit if a niche market in between RWD entry level sedans and midsize premium sedans like E, A6, 5er, etc. Lexus has been able to cover all of those bases with IS, niche ES, and GS, but when they remove GS... it just doesn't seem that they've done enough to properly elevate the ES if it looks like this. This car will not sell to the GS buyer, and quite frankly, I am not sure it will really compete with E Class. FWD A6 variants? Maybe.

Well, lets not forget that GS got reviewed as best car in class... it did nothing for its sales though. GS-F got great reviews. GS sales tanked in the meantime.

And ES gets reviewed well as a luxury sedan too.

And who is GS buyer? It is dwindling number of people. I think forums and magazines overestimate number of enthusiasts that buy 5 series for driving pleasure and RWD, since by far their best selling models are 4cly ones... against those models GS350 competed well. People buying those cars dont care about RWD.

It is ok that you or me or krew or someone else here is not ES buyer. A lot more people are ES buyers compared to GS though, so obviously they need to cater to those people.

Gecko

All of the media reviews will mourn the loss of the GS and say that the ES is not as good of a car as Mercedes and Audi. Too boring, too bland, FWD, doesn't drive well, etc. Then it will be more expensive than the Buick, and they'll probably complain about that too.

Now, we can also say that media doesn't matter. Does it? I think yes, and I think Lexus underestimates the value of positive PR quite heavily. You will bring up all of the positive press for the Honda Accord and how that hasn't translated into sales. There are lots of other important factors like leasing and financing options, and a polarizing design.

My point is this: This ES will surely continue to be successful, and it will continue to sell to people who have bought ESs in the past. However, that is a bit if a niche market in between RWD entry level sedans and midsize premium sedans like E, A6, 5er, etc. Lexus has been able to cover all of those bases with IS, niche ES, and GS, but when they remove GS... it just doesn't seem that they've done enough to properly elevate the ES if it looks like this. This car will not sell to the GS buyer, and quite frankly, I am not sure it will really compete with E Class. FWD A6 variants? Maybe.

Well, lets not forget that GS got reviewed as best car in class... it did nothing for its sales though. GS-F got great reviews. GS sales tanked in the meantime.

And ES gets reviewed well as a luxury sedan too.

And who is GS buyer? It is dwindling number of people. I think forums and magazines overestimate number of enthusiasts that buy 5 series for driving pleasure and RWD, since by far their best selling models are 4cly ones... against those models GS350 competed well. People buying those cars dont care about RWD.

It is ok that you or me or krew or someone else here is not ES buyer. A lot more people are ES buyers compared to GS though, so obviously they need to cater to those people.

ssun30

Yes. The point is not about whether the ES will be successful. It already is and will continue to be. We are saying this doesn't look good enough as a GS replacement. If the ES couldn't get more (or outright lose) buyers in that segment, then it had failed its mission. It will succeed in being an ES, but probably fail in becoming 'more than an ES'. That's what we are concerned about.
That being said, as a 5ES owner I don't care that much. As long as they can offer a four-seat 'super-lux' trim I will buy one in a heartbeat (otherwise an Alphard). I've given up on the V6 and just have to accept the downgrade to an I4 hybrid

Looking at Avalon and Rav4, I am sure new ES will be more luxurious than before and that will especially handle better than before with true F-Sport editions. TNGA does handle well, so it will be more than ES for sure, but it will never be an GS. And that is OK.

ssun30

Yes. The point is not about whether the ES will be successful. It already is and will continue to be. We are saying this doesn't look good enough as a GS replacement. If the ES couldn't get more (or outright lose) buyers in that segment, then it had failed its mission. It will succeed in being an ES, but probably fail in becoming 'more than an ES'. That's what we are concerned about.
That being said, as a 5ES owner I don't care that much. As long as they can offer a four-seat 'super-lux' trim I will buy one in a heartbeat (otherwise an Alphard). I've given up on the V6 and just have to accept the downgrade to an I4 hybrid

Looking at Avalon and Rav4, I am sure new ES will be more luxurious than before and that will especially handle better than before with true F-Sport editions. TNGA does handle well, so it will be more than ES for sure, but it will never be an GS. And that is OK.

A few random points:

- In US, GS has never been a big seller because of the ES - I have gone over this many times and any person who knows and understands the sales process in a Lexus dealership will tell you this is the reason. The fact is that the ES is nearly the same size with the same features and costs 1/3 less. Period.

- I do not have an expectation that the GS will return, even as a four door coupe. Such a car would be even more expensive and lower volume than even the current GS - and compounding that is a market that's heavy on SUVs. I think "niche, premium" products will be the LC, LF-1 and next gen GX, if it lives. There would have to be a massive swing back to passenger cars to justify the business case for this.

- I've also said this before, but the first drives of the Camry all noted that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis and was nose heavy. Some things can be done to fix this (suspension tuning), but it's not a great starting point for an ES that will hopefully have more than 300hp and probably more torque due to turbos.

A few random points:

- In US, GS has never been a big seller because of the ES - I have gone over this many times and any person who knows and understands the sales process in a Lexus dealership will tell you this is the reason. The fact is that the ES is nearly the same size with the same features and costs 1/3 less. Period.

- I do not have an expectation that the GS will return, even as a four door coupe. Such a car would be even more expensive and lower volume than even the current GS - and compounding that is a market that's heavy on SUVs. I think "niche, premium" products will be the LC, LF-1 and next gen GX, if it lives. There would have to be a massive swing back to passenger cars to justify the business case for this.

- I've also said this before, but the first drives of the Camry all noted that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis and was nose heavy. Some things can be done to fix this (suspension tuning), but it's not a great starting point for an ES that will hopefully have more than 300hp and probably more torque due to turbos.

Rendered: The Next-Generation Lexus ES Sedan

From Best Car.

View the original article post

Rendered: The Next-Generation Lexus ES Sedan

From Best Car.

View the original article post

I'm very enthusiastic about these renderings -- the front is ripped straight from the LS, that's ok with me. I can't afford a brand new LS anyway :D.

Rear is bland, though, and the lightbar here doesn't have the same punch as on the UX.

Even though it doesn't replace the GS, I would buy this car. The GS has been unable to build any traction whatsoever, even when it was the best-handling car in the segment.

I always maintain the GS suffered from always being the first vehicle to debut a new design language. First L-Finesse, then the Spindle Grille -- in both cases, the design had yet to be fully formed and the GS always stood apart from the rest of the lineup.

I would prefer a hiatus for a couple years and the GS coming back reinvented into something else. My preference would be a four-door coupe of some description, maybe the car interpretation of the LF-1.

I'm very enthusiastic about these renderings -- the front is ripped straight from the LS, that's ok with me. I can't afford a brand new LS anyway :D.

Rear is bland, though, and the lightbar here doesn't have the same punch as on the UX.

Even though it doesn't replace the GS, I would buy this car. The GS has been unable to build any traction whatsoever, even when it was the best-handling car in the segment.

I always maintain the GS suffered from always being the first vehicle to debut a new design language. First L-Finesse, then the Spindle Grille -- in both cases, the design had yet to be fully formed and the GS always stood apart from the rest of the lineup.

I would prefer a hiatus for a couple years and the GS coming back reinvented into something else. My preference would be a four-door coupe of some description, maybe the car interpretation of the LF-1.

I find the render to be quite legit too! It looks amazing, but it looks good for an ES replacement...not so much a GS replacement IMO. I say this because the GS is sporty whereas this is more luxurious (nothing wrong with that of course). I still have confidence the GS will come back as an A7 competitor later on.

I find the render to be quite legit too! It looks amazing, but it looks good for an ES replacement...not so much a GS replacement IMO. I say this because the GS is sporty whereas this is more luxurious (nothing wrong with that of course). I still have confidence the GS will come back as an A7 competitor later on.

I think this looks a lot better than the current ES, and that a higher-end AWD version could fill the space between the ES and LS better than the current GS does. The GS is the car between the IS and a high-performance premium sedan that Lexus never bothered to make.