Lexus Europe Planning to Discontinue GS Sedan?

zeusus

Many people are dumping on Lexus for dropping the GS even though literally nobody actually knows whats happening.

What we do know is that Lexus is looking to stop in Europe. What happens in Europe doesn't necessarily happen across the world.

We also know Carmaker1 posted about the 5GS production program and schedule. If there is a chance for us to know before Lexus announces it, it may have to come from him so hopefully we get some updates on this.

And even if Lexus drops the GS for good, it doesn't mean Lexus will never compete in the space again. They could be taking a break to focus elsewhere or be entering a new segment that makes more sense for the changing luxury market.

excellent point!!!! we tend to jump to conclusions too fast. Let's remain optimistic!

PeterF

AM I CRAZY?!!!
I am considering trading in my LC500 (loaded with Sport performance) for a GS F. (I'll get money back). I love my LC500, but I have longed for the GS to be moved to a superior platform, but this won't happen. I now am musing (on my birthday I will add) that I will be crazy and get a GS F; a car that I will keep forever and can drive my future grandkids around in and can still take on long hauls. I know it seems crazy, but the GS F will be a collectors item eventually and I'm having a bit of a hard time parting with my long time dream of owning a GS F. I already own a 2014 Porsche 911 S, naturally aspirated engine that is an impressive coupe, but can't seem to get the GS F out of my mind. I'm looking at a certified 16 GS F from my dealership. So there you have it. I'd love to hear your comments: crazy or not!!! (well, quite honestly, I know I am car crazy and have spent a load of money on them, so perhaps that's not the right question. I'm already fantasizing about modifying this GS F... LOL!!!

(i am considering getting a LC F eventually when it comes out; then I can trade my 911 in if the LC F seems like a good car to get.... if it approaches a 911 GT3)

I don’t think you’re crazy at all. Now I can’t compare to you as I just have a new F Sport GS 350 and would have to pay more money (can’t imagine my wife being happy about that) where you rt money back but I was at my dealership today and they had one inside that just looked so good. I’m sure the LC is a helluva car but the GSF might not be around that long and I’m pretty sure LC will be around for another generation with the buzz it has received.

PeterF

AM I CRAZY?!!!
I am considering trading in my LC500 (loaded with Sport performance) for a GS F. (I'll get money back). I love my LC500, but I have longed for the GS to be moved to a superior platform, but this won't happen. I now am musing (on my birthday I will add) that I will be crazy and get a GS F; a car that I will keep forever and can drive my future grandkids around in and can still take on long hauls. I know it seems crazy, but the GS F will be a collectors item eventually and I'm having a bit of a hard time parting with my long time dream of owning a GS F. I already own a 2014 Porsche 911 S, naturally aspirated engine that is an impressive coupe, but can't seem to get the GS F out of my mind. I'm looking at a certified 16 GS F from my dealership. So there you have it. I'd love to hear your comments: crazy or not!!! (well, quite honestly, I know I am car crazy and have spent a load of money on them, so perhaps that's not the right question. I'm already fantasizing about modifying this GS F... LOL!!!

(i am considering getting a LC F eventually when it comes out; then I can trade my 911 in if the LC F seems like a good car to get.... if it approaches a 911 GT3)

First of all, hell no you aren't crazy. I sometimes think about that too. Second, why not get everything? ;)

By the way, try not to sell that 911. Especially with everything going turbo, not only is the value of your 911 going to increase (assuming the specifications are to the roof), and you will never regret it ever. That aura, that essence that your 911 will give you, gives goosebumps and will make your hairs rise, and I say that as a huge enthusiast for Lexus.

F1 Silver Arrows

First of all, hell no you aren't crazy. I sometimes think about that too. Second, why not get everything? ;)

By the way, try not to sell that 911. Especially with everything going turbo, not only is the value of your 911 going to increase (assuming the specifications are to the roof), and you will never regret it ever. That aura, that essence that your 911 will give you, gives goosebumps and will make your hairs rise, and I say that as a huge enthusiast for Lexus.

oh, good point about the 911. It's fully loaded with all the goodies. I love the NA engine

Keep the LC ... can't imagine parting with it ... but get the GS F too! ... life's to short! ;)
... my wife would KILL me!!!

RAL

Keep the LC ... can't imagine parting with it ... but get the GS F too! ... life's to short! ;)
Easy for me to say because I can't afford it ... and ... my wife would KILL me!!!

LOL! I'm coming to my senses, gradually. Don't think I can manage both of them, but parting with the LC would be hard. Not doing anything right now. Mulling it all over

I'm Team Everything. The LC and GS F are too different not to have both, IMO. And you'll go to Car Guy Hell if you sell the 911, so it's settled ;-)

Ian Schmidt

I'm Team Everything. The LC and GS F are too different not to have both, IMO. And you'll go to Car Guy Hell if you sell the 911, so it's settled ;-)

God, I can't go to Car Guy Hell; the suffering would be too much. You are correct, the LC and GS F are quite different. My heart thumps thinking of both! The 911 is a keeper too. Now, I am thinking of a way to explain this to my wife. I've got a few ideas up my sleeve (I haven't bought a car since last August!, I need a 4 door sedan b/c sooner or later we will have grandkids, it is overall better for ..... the car is unique! there are very few and it has a NA engine! If I wanted to, I could take it to the track ; LOL)

If I may give some advice, I can help and give some ideas. :laughing:

Many people like the sound of some words more than another. You have to speak in a very calculated manner in order for her to say yes!
Use words like "security", "important asset to the family", "relic", "these three cars will allow us to benefit in a positive manner", "important to haul around the grandkids in a sedan and have long lasting memories with them with the two amazing coupes", "practicality", "uniqueness", "asset", "teaching tool" etc.

Essentially, you're giving everything to her straight, but you use another mindset once you're trying to explain it to her. Remember to have a few breaths, and be as genuine as you can.

Honestly, if you can do it, you will actually enjoy those three cars for as long as you will grace this earth in my opinion. Those three cars are so damn amazing that I am quite excited and happy for you if this actually pans out. Good luck! :fist::rolleyes:

mikeavelli

FYi in the UK the best selling A8 is a I-4 with FWD :)

it is just how it works... people are being delusional if they think that mass market that actually buys these vehicles cares about all V6, V8, AWD, RWD, FWD too much.

Most of Audi vehicles these days are FWD, and most of A4 and A6 are FWD 2.0tdi...

And then enthusiasts talk about twin turbos, RWD, V8, etc. All that matters little to average buyer that is getting base engine option.

spwolf

it is just how it works... people are being delusional if they think that mass market that actually buys these vehicles cares about all V6, V8, AWD, RWD, FWD too much.

Most of Audi vehicles these days are FWD, and most of A4 and A6 are FWD 2.0tdi...

And then enthusiasts talk about twin turbos, RWD, V8, etc. All that matters little to average buyer that is getting base engine option.

Base trims with base engines and barebones interior will sell more because they are cheap so there will always be a bigger crowd buying them. Sales will always be a pyramid shape, at least until the $100k+ range (where absolute desirability is prime).

But that's not to say an ES should launch with the Camry powertrain options and call it a day. It will be a weak launch for a very important product. You see, the Germans always pair their base trim with a new "exciting" option at launch to attract crowd to it. It shows they are doing "serious engineering" and are constantly progressing. These top trims are an order of magnitude more profitable because the increase in powertrain cost is easily offset by the disproportionately high premium automakers can charge.

Pricing structure matters: base trims are there to spread the cost, higher trims are there to drive up margins. The ES technically only needs the ES200 in Asia because they account for 3/4 of the sales, but these cars barely make any money compared to an ES250 (which is actually cheaper to manufacture). And when the best selling ES in USA is the ES350 with lots of packages, there's a problem with the pricing structure: it is not taking advantage of the fact that some of these "fully loaded ES350" buyers could afford a more expensive vehicle. An inverted pyramid is not optimal.

ssun30

Base trims with base engines and barebones interior will sell more because they are cheap so there will always be a bigger crowd buying them. Sales will always be a pyramid shape, at least until the $100k+ range (where absolute desirability is prime).

But that's not to say an ES should launch with the Camry powertrain options and call it a day. It will be a weak launch for a very important product. You see, the Germans always pair their base trim with a new "exciting" option at launch to attract crowd to it. It shows they are doing "serious engineering" and are constantly progressing. These top trims are an order of magnitude more profitable because the increase in powertrain cost is easily offset by the disproportionately high premium automakers can charge.

Pricing structure matters: base trims are there to spread the cost, higher trims are there to drive up margins. The ES technically only needs the ES200 in Asia because they account for 3/4 of the sales, but these cars barely make any money compared to an ES250 (which is actually cheaper to manufacture). And when the best selling ES in USA is the ES350 with lots of packages, there's a problem with the pricing structure: it is not taking advantage of the fact that some of these "fully loaded ES350" buyers could afford a more expensive vehicle. An inverted pyramid is not optimal.

I am sure there will be very expensive versions of ES... but what I am talking about is people thinking ES cant replace GS because of FWD vs RWD and V6 vs V8 or v6tt, etc.

ES will likely have very expensive top of the line trims, like they are doing with LS and even new Rav4.

btw, i was checking inventory levels on GS after sales report in the US, and it is not particularly high... they cleaned their stocks well in the USA as well. They are clearly putting it to the back burner, so I cant wait to see what they cooked up for the ES.

spwolf

I dont think Europe cares about their fleet saloons being FWD or RWD. Most Audi's these days are FWD models with 2.0l diesel. Used to be 3.0 TDI AWD... So ES will fit there well enough and sell substantially better than GS ever had... of course, it will sell nothing like NX or RX, but if price is right it will sell better than IS.

I dont think 7 seater is a big deal here in EU. They sell Highlander in Russia and even LX, which is a best seller there, but these cars are too big and too expensive for Toyota EU.

I am primarily referring to Western Europe and trust me, I have met quite a number of folks that something a smidgen bigger than the RX and just buy an XC90, Q7, Discovery, or X5 instead, sometimes even GL/GLS (large). Russia isn't really what I was addressing, as their demographics in terms of vehicle shopping, is highly different. It is why focused on the UK and surrounding areas (like FR, Germany, etc), who buy Lexus the most in that part of Europe.

The majority of FWD A6s in Western and Central Europe are diesel. Will Toyota offer a diesel ES? No they won't. Can they guarantee that a hybrid is the best alternative? Well, we will see or if it will remain in niche volume sales.

There is a difference in the longitudinal layout of the MLB Evo versus the current FWD transverse K platform for various reasons, which the Legend (RL) and Accord (TSX) echoed the latter and failed to make a dent. I am not buying a GA-K Lexus Avalon as competition to the A6. They need to do it better than that as a Tier 1 midsize offering.

It is pretty much dumping at this point, instead of investing in a sufficiently attractive and well-positioned GS product, without intra-brand cannibalization. (Then again will it be cheaper than in US?). A transverse FWD platform with AWD tacked on, is much closer to S90 Volvo than to A6 2.0 TDI, let alone E200d or 520d. Now which of those two is doing better in EU/UK overall saloon sales? Volvo or Audi?

At the high end, Toyota better have developed an AWD system capable of besting Quattro in the eyes of local prospective buyers or do not expect the best sales results. There were many things wrong with the current GS to feasibly "fix" I could point out, but that isn't my job. Moreover Toyoda's and his subordinate employees.

Carmaker1

The majority of FWD A6s in Western and Central Europe are diesel. Will Toyota offer a diesel ES? No they won't. Can they guarantee that a hybrid is the best alternative? Well, we will see or if it will remain in niche volume sales.

There is a difference in the longitudinal layout of the MLB Evo versus the current FWD transverse K platform for various reasons, which the Legend (RL) and Accord (TSX) echoed the latter and failed to make a dent. I am not buying a GA-K Lexus Avalon as competition to the A6. They need to do it better than that as a Tier 1 midsize offering.

It will certainly remain niche in sales because whole Lexus brand is niche in sales in Europe... they dont even have Lexus dealers in every EU country.
What helps them out of that niche status is not ES or GS or IS, but NX, RX and certainly new UX.

As to the diesel vs hybrid, I am pretty sure if new 300h was in Audi, it would be very popular option vs their 2.0 tdi. Diesels sales are dramatically down throughout the Europe on month by month basis, even in Germany, despite them issuing PRs and campaigns offering replacement vehicles if diesels get banned in cities.

Moreover, Toyota Europe has had big success with their hybrids with dramatic increase in sales last year, and it will become only better with introduction of 2.0l hybrid.

So question here is - will 2019 ES outsell previous generation GS launches in Europe, and I am pretty sure it will easily do so, and even become #1 selling sedan for Lexus EU... something that their dealers need to increase sales per dealership and expand their networks.