New Lexus ES Prototype Spotted in California

supra93

I'm referring to the rumors of the GS cancellation. I have no issue with the ES itself.

I prefer to think positive about the GS - the fact that the JDM Toyota version is out testing should mean positive things for it. If we're going to have a new golden age of Japanese speed with the Supra and NSX and GTR and Civic Type-R and so on, the GS F should come out and play too.

Ian Schmidt

I prefer to think positive about the GS - the fact that the JDM Toyota version is out testing should mean positive things for it. If we're going to have a new golden age of Japanese speed with the Supra and NSX and GTR and Civic Type-R and so on, the GS F should come out and play too.

great point! and Lexus really is presenting a picture that they want to be and are becoming real players!

Gecko

Let's be honest - all the ES really needs is an active AWD system that can split the power delivery between the front and rear wheels for consumers who want either more power or better driving dynamics... and the case for building a GS becomes approximately zero. This is what Audi has done for years with every sedan in their lineup: you can buy the plebeian FWD model if you don't care and just want an appliance, or you have the option of AWD, sports packages, larger engines, etc. It works for them and it can work for Lexus, and this method would represent a major risk aversion for Lexus when sedan sales are tanking dramatically month by month.

Judging from the spy pics, this is a good looking car... much more svelte and interesting than any ES before. If they offer 300+hp ES F-Sport that looks this good, they probably will be able to keep ~50% or more of GS buyers, all of their current ES audience and eliminate significant cost and risk.

AWD is key when it comes to the next-generation ES replacing the GS, at least in a suitable manner. Also, let's not kid ourselves -- the ES is one of the best-selling luxury sedans in North America and the GS is a poor seller that can only be fixed with a drastic reinvention that positions it away from the E-Class & 5-series. The decision looks easy from a business sense.

corradoMR2

FWD-platform aside, I can't believe I'm actually excited at the prospect of an ES F Sport. I know it's an oxymoron today, but think back at the sporty flair of the Gen2 ES while still being luxurious and refined. If Lexus captures that styling and "sporty" essence in the Gen7 ES which was lost in all prior Gens, I may actually have one in my driveway soon enough!

This is how I'm feeling as well. An ES F SPORT is so insane I want one of my own.

Regarding "Akio getting what he wanted", this misconception needs to be cleared up as well. There was a little-known interview Akio Toyoda did some time ago, where he mentioned he never actually wanted to cancel the GS. The whole story or urban legend that emerged about Akio "wanting to cancel it" was explained very clearly in the interview. He said that was just a comment he made to the development team to motivate them to make a better product, and that they did. They developed a class-leading chassis with the 4GS. He said in the interview he never wanted to literally cancel the GS. So this misconception needs to stop being repeated. Lexus enthusiasts, stay informed, and pass on this information to stop this misconception and false rumor in its tracks.

corradoMR2

If you look closely at the '18 LS and '18 CT grilles, the F Sport versions have the traditional "L" shapes like the alleged F Sport version of the ES. The non-F Sport version of the ES like the LS, CT, IS, etc which have a honeycomb, waterfall-style, or horizontal slat design as the standard grills.

So based on what we see today in production, my money is on that "ES" model being an "F Sport"... but yes, all speculation still at this time...

Great eye!

I see what you're saying, but I'll believe an ES F-Sport when I see it unveiled in production form. Not doubting you, just doubting Lexus actually doing it.

CIF

Regarding "Akio getting what he wanted", this misconception needs to be cleared up as well. There was a little-known interview Akio Toyoda did some time ago, where he mentioned he never actually wanted to cancel the GS. The whole story or urban legend that emerged about Akio "wanting to cancel it" was explained very clearly in the interview

I'm sure I wrote about this, but do you have a link to this story?

Not trying to go off topic, but I have a fix for the GS' poor sale. How about dropping in that TT-V6 and bringing back the V8? It seems to work really well for Genesis.

2017
GS: 4,205
G80: 9,005

krew

I'm sure I wrote about this, but do you have a link to this story?

I tried my best to search for the interview, but can't find the link. It was an obscure interview. You may have written about this. I do know 100% that the interview does exist, and Akio Toyoda did say this.

OlFius

It's summer time, just my thoughts:
I believe that this new ES will be a direct replacement for the current GS. That's one of the reasons why the ES will be available in Western Europe, next year, for the first time.
But, I also believe that the current GS will get a full makeover, something like the current 'GT' versions of BMW (3 and 5-series), where the GS is something between a regular sedan/SUV/station wagon, pretty imposing cars.
These types of cars are quite popular today here in Western Europe, and knowing that Lexus always keeps an eye on BMW....
But, like I say, it's summer time...

Where does this come from?

supra93

Not trying to go off topic, but I have a fix for the GS' poor sale. How about dropping in that TT-V6 and bringing back the V8? It seems to work really well for Genesis.

2017
GS: 4,205
G80: 9,005

The thing is the Genesis starts 5k less than the 200t at 41k and 10k less than the GS 350 and they are discounted just as heavy as the GS. Considering the GS is at the end of its cycle with not much marketing support it is what it is at this point.

BenzCity

Where does this come from?

:D

OlFius

It's summer time, just my thoughts:
I believe that this new ES will be a direct replacement for the current GS. That's one of the reasons why the ES will be available in Western Europe, next year, for the first time.
But, I also believe that the current GS will get a full makeover, something like the current 'GT' versions of BMW (3 and 5-series), where the GS is something between a regular sedan/SUV/station wagon, pretty imposing cars.
These types of cars are quite popular today here in Western Europe, and knowing that Lexus always keeps an eye on BMW....
But, like I say, it's summer time...

BenzCity

Where does this come from?

After today's story from Australia, it looks like @OlFius has some insider info. :grinning:

F Sport with FWD? LOL

Okay, if the ES is going to be the only mid-size sedan in the Lexus lineup, with FWD, AWD and F Sport Variants, please call it the GS instead of ES. I can't imagine a car called the ES F and the name ES should not be associated with performance and driving dynamics.

meth.ix

F Sport with FWD? LOL

Is there a problem with that? There is an abundance of nice driving FWD out there. Lexus set up RWD cars to be understeer anyway.

meth.ix

F Sport with FWD? LOL

CT200h F-Sport

RX 350 F Sport
RX 450h F Sport

NX 200t F Sport
NX 300h F Sport (worldwide)

Very soon:

ES 350 F Sport
ES 300h F Sport

LexusTechSA

CT200h F-Sport

Yes, but that is a small hatchback, so FWD isn't that bad for being sporty. But now we are talking about a large FWD sedan which is intended to be sporty. It just doesn't work for me.

mikeavelli

Considering the GS is at the end of its cycle with not much marketing support it is what it is at this point.

Same with the Genesis, that thing has been in production since 2013.

supra93

Same with the Genesis, that thing has been in production since 2013.

Hey bud there is a new one out its called the G80... they just introduced a sport model.. .but then its 55k-60k with options, no thanks....

mikeavelli

Hey bud there is a new one out its called the G80... they just introduced a sport model.. .but then its 55k-60k with options, no thanks....

I don't care what they call it. Its the same body...

I guess since the Scion FR-S is now the Toyota 86 it is a new generation.

Carscoops created a render of what the next ES could look like:
http://www.carscoops.com/2017/09/future-cars-2019-lexus-es-kicks-its-gs.html

The rendering looks nice. But, its funny how they wrote that article as if they have indeed confirm that the GS is going away and that the ES would get AWD.

I like it!!!

I like it too.

I think its also worth noting that Carscoops' Camry rendering was pretty close.

I bet that is pretty close to the real thing indeed!

We haven't really touched on this but I was looking at a few ES's in traffic recently and to me from the front door to the rear the ES offers a more stylish and overall nicer profile than the GS. I do like the refreshed ES compared to the initial front end but still overall feel the GS is more co-hesive even if it is very aggressive. This is another dagger in the GS, the ES is actually pretty good looking and larger.

I'm hearing a few GS rumors now I really hope they find a way to continue it even if it changes...

Some people think the new ES is just a facelift version of the new Crown.

Doubt it. Look at the dash to axle ratio and overhangs. Crown is clearly RWD, ES is clearly FWD.