New Fifth-Generation Lexus LS 500 to Start Around $75,000 in USA

spwolf

You forgot about MB that has had FCV program as long as Japanese had, so did GM but they folded theirs while MB did not and just introduced new FCV vehicle.

I think you always take too simplistic view on things :). For instance, Toyota probably has largest research team on next generation batteries, and they have had it at least since 2008.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080612/153224/
http://www.toyota.com.cn/innovation...logy/next_generation_secondary_batteries.html

Toyota owned companies started buying lithium ore supply since 2010:
http://www.toyota-tsusho.com/english/csr/business/case09.html

So it is not anything new. Their big investment into research of solid batteries started in 2010 and collaborates with big 4 japanese universities that have published the largest amount of academic papers into lithium batteries in the world. It is not something that started yesterday.

After all they sell 1.5m hybrids on yearly basis, only big manufacturer that actually has "electrified" big portion of their fleet and found it profitable. So it is nothing new. "Problem" is that like every other manufacturer, they do not want to lose money on building EVs now. Same as others dont really build hybrids but build PR pieces and throw numbers out to appease investors and yet they end up selling diesels. It is all about being profitable.

As to the Japan - Japan does not have enough electricity to power their homes and factories - it is a big problem for them. It is completely understandable why they are looking for a storage medium for power, such as FC stack. Germany, USA also invested a lot of money into R&D of FC, as well as batteries. US likely spent more money, just like they spent more money on battery R&D and yet no battery manufacturers survived.

So nothing is simple black and white.

Now that this thread has gone terribly off-topic, I'm not going to argue with you about this, maybe another time when there's actually a proper discussion on Lexus EVs.

As you've said, nothing is simply black and white, and Japan's Hydrogen Economy is not simply because of the reason you've stated. We are both oversimplifying things in each other's eyes.

Black Dynamite

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice

The LF-FC was a bold design move, exactly what Lexus needed to compete, head-to-head, with the S-Class. Something happened on the way to the production line, but the LF-FC was done away with, and so was a V8 engine in the LS. It may reappear in an LSC trim, but that, again, would fail compete directly with the now Mercedes S560.

This new design is no better than what it replaced, IMO. It is different, but not better. I preferred the squared-off front bumper and tall rear quarters of the last-gen car. This has more glitz, the previous had more road presence.

To Lexus' credit, at least they aren't trying to pass this off as a direct competitor to the S-Class, as their price indicates. It shows that Lexus is still afraid to step up and take on the Germans, directly.

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

Loud and clear.
BD

Everything you mentioned can be said for even the S -class I have not seen a major redesign for the S-class in a while only if the minor headlights and tail lights count.

What I don't understand is why people want Lexus to price the LS has an S-class knowing fully well the same people would be the first to complain about the pricing.

Lexus is not afraid of anything that's why they built the LC the way they did and still price it lesser than its competitors. Because the LC made it to production unchanged doesn't mean all Lexus/Toyota prototypes would make it to production untouched. Plus i think it has been said a few times on this site that the LF-FC was made after the design of the LS has been finalized.

Lexus know that even if they put all the technology in the S-class + the ones in the 5LS combined and price that car at S-class level there would still be some of us that would complain about how the S-class have a 22inch rims and the LS has 21.5inch.

Personally I think that car is worth more than Lexus is selling it for.

Let us know when you pick up your LS because after you test drive it you might realize that the remaining 40 something thousand dollars on the S-class is just for the badge and the unnecessary toys thrown in the car to overwhelm the user.

spwolf

gotta say, your fb live video made it look really really good, despite low quality... there is only so much you can see on pictures and video gave it completely different dimension. It looked sophisticated, smart and expensive.

Cell signal was really tough to get outside of San Francisco, and it screwed up the quality a bit. Thanks for watching!

Black Dynamite

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

What a negative way of looking at things!

As @bogglo mentions, the LF-FC was designed when the production LS design was already finalized. Not only that, it was HUGE -- it was easily the size of a RR Phantom, and that gave it a lot of room for bold sweeping lines and elaborate styling.

Flagships sedans are a shrinking market, and I don't think it's just because people now prefer SUVs. Anyone buying an LS or S-Class likely has a SUV already in their driveway. I think it's value vs. expense -- the S-Class price is so inflated it's ridiculous.

I think you're mistaking value with cheap -- there's nothing half-assed about the LS. Nothing. I honestly thought they would charge at least $10k more, but they didn't. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

CIF

I know this is off-topic, but I must point out you are greatly misinformed about Tesla. Tesla over the years has received massive subsidies from the US government. Billions and billions of dollars worth. Elon Musk is a brilliant man...but he is no god. Many observers, including yourself judging by your comments, all consider what Tesla has done in the industry to be revolutionary. However there is a really big problem with this perspective. Without US government subsidies, Tesla would not be where it is today. Furthermore, it has already been proven that in various international markets, Tesla sales have been mostly fueled by government consumer subsidies. When those subsidies ended in certain international markets, Tesla sales imploded.

So on the surface of it, Tesla's achievements seem revolutionary, almost too good to be true...because in reality, they are. For a brand new automobile company to come out of nowhere, and suddenly compete with the best automakers in the world. It seemed too good to be true. When you dig into the details, it certainly is. This is not a company competing naturally and organically in the free market, by free market rules. This is a company fueled massively by direct government assistance and subsidies, not to mention sales fueled by subsidies in various international markets. Hypothetically, if there was such government backing and huge levels of subsidies for hydrogen vehicles worldwide, then I'm sure some automaker with hydrogen cars would be seen as quite successful right now too.

Also you are incorrect about Tesla being profitable. While Tesla is worth a huge amount of money in stock and on paper, the company actually keeps losing money. http://fortune.com/2017/05/04/tesla-motors-stock-earnings/

Tesla for the most part is unprofitable. Very much like a popular tech start-up company in fact. Massive revenues, massive valuation, yet no real profits but lots of losses. Tesla has a lot of hype and stock valuation simply on the belief that it will become profitable in the future, and that it is a "company of the future", not because the company is profitable right now.

Just wanted to point these things out. I'm sure we should all be getting back on topic now.

This is such a good point even if its more aggressive than I would post. While I can appreciate Tesla as a whole, I do believe they have one or two profitable quarters their entire existence. How is that going to work out long term? Their value and their results are so far apart its scary.

I think what Tesla did get right which people tend to ignore is they simply made a great looking car in the Model S and the Model X is a dream cool car simply for the doors. And then they realized people love fast cars thus the 90D, 100D etc.

To me its just crazy you can charge your Electric car up at random places for free because its electric. Imagine going to the mall and getting free gas. I don't get it.

Black Dynamite

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice

The LF-FC was a bold design move, exactly what Lexus needed to compete, head-to-head, with the S-Class. Something happened on the way to the production line, but the LF-FC was done away with, and so was a V8 engine in the LS. It may reappear in an LSC trim, but that, again, would fail compete directly with the now Mercedes S560.

This new design is no better than what it replaced, IMO. It is different, but not better. I preferred the squared-off front bumper and tall rear quarters of the last-gen car. This has more glitz, the previous had more road presence.

To Lexus' credit, at least they aren't trying to pass this off as a direct competitor to the S-Class, as their price indicates. It shows that Lexus is still afraid to step up and take on the Germans, directly.

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

Loud and clear.
BD

BD I haven't seen the new A8 yet but the new LS really blows anything away in class in regards to style save the Panamera which uses the usual Porsche design cues. I might not be totally in love with it but they sure took a bold chance with the LS.

Sorry but Genesis is not even an also-ran, its not better than the competition, its cheaper. When Lexus debuted it was better and cheaper arguably.

I think with this new LS, Lexus once again can hold that argument and that is something the LS couldn't really say past 2009/2010.