New Fifth-Generation Lexus LS 500 to Start Around $75,000 in USA

gotta say, your fb live video made it look really really good, despite low quality... there is only so much you can see on pictures and video gave it completely different dimension. It looked sophisticated, smart and expensive.

I am impressed with the price point. I was expecting this car to start around $85k and go up from there.

With that said, I can see some people saying, "It's priced lower because of the V6, etc" so I hope the first drives negate any worries about it being down on power.

Gecko

I am impressed with the price point. I was expecting this car to start around $85k and go up from there.

With that said, I can see some people saying, "It's priced lower because of the V6, etc" so I hope the first drives negate any worries about it being down on power.

i forgot, how much hp did LS460 have? V8 valid point for Lexus buyers, i would guess many bought it because of V8, however lets hope that V6TT feels as fast as it should (ie faster than old V8)

spwolf

i forgot, how much hp did LS460 have? V8 valid point for Lexus buyers, i would guess many bought it because of V8, however lets hope that V6TT feels as fast as it should (ie faster than old V8)

The 1UR-FSE makes 386hp and 367lb-ft of torque, and the new TT V6 makes 416hp and 442lb-ft of torque. Theres no doubt that the new engine is more powerful on paper but what I'm more concerned with is NVH, smoothness and the power delivery because I think those things are pretty important to LS buyers.

Gecko

The 1UR-FSE makes 386hp and 367lb-ft of torque, and the new TT V6 makes 416hp and 442lb-ft of torque. Theres no doubt that the new engine is more powerful on paper but what I'm more concerned with is NVH, smoothness and the power delivery because I think those things are pretty important to LS buyers.

As we all expect, driveability should much better with tt, so it should end up a big plus with all the extra torque available from low revs... Even sound from latest user vids like one from this site os really good.

This is a great starting price! it will sell better with this base price. I'm not worried about the TTV6, it will have plenty of power and the chassis has the high rigidity of the GAL platform that will make for much better driving that the LS460. I'm looking forward to hear about Krew's experience driving it. Based on what I've experienced with the LC500, it will have a great feel and handle superbly. I'm an optimist though.

Just saw the FB video; here's my post

thanks Krew! very informative and, great job at reporting the facts sans evaluative emotion. BUT, I'm going to guess that you love this car!

Great frontal pic of this car... Wish it well. Feel sure a higher powered version will become available either a V12 or V8 in due course, very competitive start price should do well. Would like to see Lexus bring in an even higher grade model to compete with Bentley and similar they have the expertise to do this very successfully. Come on Lexus move it up a gear!

I don't really know enough to say this, but I feel like really wealthy people might want to pay a higher price.

That starting price is a steal. Most will likely have . premium package of some sorts and be in the 85k range I assume... .Even 100k loaded what a steal consdering the S550 starts at 95k though you do get a standard V-8.

An excellent price indeed, I truly expected the starting MSRP to be quite a bit higher.

mikeavelli

That starting price is a steal. Most will likely have . premium package of some sorts and be in the 85k range I assume... .Even 100k loaded what a steal consdering the S550 starts at 95k though you do get a standard V-8.

they said 70% will be less than 80k, so likely $79,995 for Premium package :)

meth.ix

I don't really know enough to say this, but I feel like really wealthy people might want to pay a higher price.

I think you have a point here... There is room to add more to this car be it power or simply more luxury, it already in my opinion makes the Germans look old hat and too conventionally mundane in appearance.

Rob Grieveson

I think you have a point here... There is room to add more to this car be it power or simply more luxury, it already in my opinion makes the Germans look old hat and too conventionally mundane in appearance.

F model should be quite more expensive than $100k and realistically thats a real limit for Lexus anyway.

meth.ix

I don't really know enough to say this, but I feel like really wealthy people might want to pay a higher price.

"Really wealthy" needs a quantitative definition. Maybach S or AMG S is maybe wealthy, but does not look more wealthy than base S. If being able to display wealth does not matter, so will the price of LS not matter. If displaying wealth does matter, any S is just too poor looking compared to Bentley or Rolls Royce. Another thing to take into consideration is that a sedan is not enough to display wealth, is must be a supercar, but being not enough practical, those are now SUVs (RR, Bentley, Levante, Rolls Royce, X7, GLS,...). More than that, wealthy people are not interested in displaying wealth to poor people, but to other wealthy people, so even if the LS was priced much higher, it still would not mean they would be more interested in it, if among them they do not even take Lexus into account. With the exception of "really wealthy people", most people drive cars way more expensive than their worth, a car, unless historical or limited, is always a cost, even if needed.

Levi

"Really wealthy" needs a quantitative definition. Maybach S or AMG S is maybe wealthy, but does not look more wealthy than base S. If being able to display wealth does not matter, so will the price of LS not matter. If displaying wealth does matter, any S is just too poor looking compared to Bentley or Rolls Royce. Another thing to take into consideration is that a sedan is not enough to display wealth, is must be a supercar, but being not enough practical, those are now SUVs (RR, Bentley, Levante, Rolls Royce, X7, GLS,...). More than that, wealthy people are not interested in displaying wealth to poor people, but to other wealthy people, so even if the LS was priced much higher, it still would not mean they would be more interested in it, if among them they do not even take Lexus into account. With the exception of "really wealthy people", most people drive cars way more expensive than their worth, a car, unless historical or limited, is always a cost, even if needed.

Some interesting points made in this post, not sure how Lexus stands in the minds of the general public outside of the USA - perhaps not quite up there in Europe etc however believe this car is special and could start a general move up the scale for Lexus. The historical element referred to is important e.g. names such as Bentley Rolls and even Jaguar conjour up ideas of grandeur and wealth more so than does Lexus. Work to do.

maybe the LS-FC is the reason for the price of the LS500.

bogglo

maybe the LS-FC is the reason for the price of the LS500.

At this point I'm not even sure TMC will actively push the FCV program any more. Hydrogen Economy is half dead at this point and will not be revived until at least the 2030s, I believe. Given the Mirai's status it's likely TMC will shelve LS-FC and use the 2020 time window to debut a BEV LS instead. They were reluctant to admit the FCV program was a failure back in 2016, but clearly the resources are now focused on BEVs. It makes a lot of sense since a car of this size can pack huge amount of battery (easily north of 150 kWh with solid-state for a 400+mi range). Lexus needs a high profile BEV launch in 2020, and LS can't be more appropriate for this event.

The Japanese government is still sinking money into Hydrogen Economy; if I were a tax payer in Japan I would be absolutely outraged by such unrestricted spending given how bad the debt already is. There's no stoppping TMC from using that subsidy to keep developing FC technology for when the time finally comes, but wide-spread production is unlikely out of Japan. US/EU/China is all about BEV right now.

ssun30

At this point I'm not even sure TMC will actively push the FCV program any more. Hydrogen Economy is half dead at this point and will not be revived until at least the 2030s, I believe. Given the Mirai's status it's likely TMC will shelve LS-FC and use the 2020 time window to debut a BEV LS instead. They were reluctant to admit the FCV program was a failure back in 2016, but clearly the resources are now focused on BEVs. It makes a lot of sense since a car of this size can pack huge amount of battery (easily north of 150 kWh with solid-state for a 400+mi range). Lexus needs a high profile BEV launch in 2020, and LS can't be more appropriate for this event.

i doubt their FCV is going anywhere, which does not mean that they are not pushing EVs for the future too. They just dont need to lose money on them just yet.

I agree. But I just have a feeling Lexus deliberately priced the LS the way they did to leave room for another LS variant. Maybe the LSF, or a replacement for the LS600h. Considering the fact that Toyota said there would be two types of hybrid in their line ups now a regular one and another focused more on performance. What's am looking forward to though is how the GS and ES would be priced.

bogglo

I agree. But I just have a feeling Lexus deliberately priced the LS the way they did to leave room for another LS variant. Maybe the LSF, or a replacement for the LS600h. Considering the fact that Toyota said there would be two types of hybrid in their line ups now a regular one and another focused more on performance. What's am looking forward to though is how the GS and ES would be priced.

its definitely LSF, but lets not kid ourselves, people will complain when they see $130k price for it (loaded).

spwolf

i doubt their FCV is going anywhere, which does not mean that they are not pushing EVs for the future too. They just dont need to lose money on them just yet.

In starting with the Prius (Hybrid), Toyota always saw electric car as the future, but as far future and they considered HFCEV as a stepping stone. It turns out the industry will not use that 'stepping stone' and hope over it directly to BEVs. Of course Gasoline/Diesel will remain for heavy-duty vehicles, but more likely as generators.

Levi

In starting with the Prius (Hybrid), Toyota always saw electric car as the future, but as far future and they considered HFCEV as a stepping stone. It turns out the industry will not use that 'stepping stone' and hope over it directly to BEVs. Of course Gasoline/Diesel will remain for heavy-duty vehicles, but more likely as generators.

well they see fcev as those generators, not dirty diesels... i am not sure what industry will do, so far with all the hype, people are not buying cheapo EVs without huge incentives that most governments are not eager to provide.

just as cost of batteries goes down, so will cost of fcevs.

Levi

In starting with the Prius (Hybrid), Toyota always saw electric car as the future, but as far future and they considered HFCEV as a stepping stone. It turns out the industry will not use that 'stepping stone' and hope over it directly to BEVs.

There's no place in this forum for me to have a separate post on this whole Hydrogen Economy stuff because it will involve a lot of political discussion.

But in short FCVs are not meant to be a stepping stone to BEVs. They are meant to coexist with pure BEVs in the 2040s since ultimately, human being cannot build 100% of their automobile to be BEVs. The price of lithium will spiral out of control. Of course you can argue there will be alternative materials, but lithium is the most superior material no matter the what type of electrochemistry you use.

Japan and Korea were the two countries that pushed the Hydrogen Economy idea the most for lots of reasons. That's why Toyota/Honda/Hyundai got huge subsidies from their government to do FCVs. It is linked to their energy policy. Everything went well until two things happened: 1) Fracking, it not only allowed the U.S. to have complete control of oil price for the next two decades, but also meant that Japan/Korea will no longer be competitive when it comes to hydrogen extraction 2) Tesla, it is revolutionary not because it looks cool, drives by itself, or whatever people get hyped about. It changed the landscape of alternative energy vehicles by proving a profitable BEV program is possible, right now, ten years before the industry has previously estimated.

As a result, those three companies realized what an unfortunate gamble they've made and rushed to have their own BEV programs. Luckily for them, they have easy access to the most advanced battery technology from the get-go. TMC has a partnership with Panasonic, who also supplies batteries for Tesla while Hyundai works with LG, who is second after Panasonic in battery tech.

ssun30

There's no place in this forum for me to have a separate post on this whole Hydrogen Economy stuff because it will involve a lot of political discussion.

But in short FCVs are not meant to be a stepping stone to BEVs. They are meant to coexist with pure BEVs in the 2040s since ultimately, human being cannot build 100% of their automobile to be BEVs. The price of lithium will spiral out of control. Of course you can argue there will be alternative materials, but lithium is the most superior material no matter what type of electrochemistry you use.

Japan and Korea were the two countries that pushed the Hydrogen Economy idea the most for lots of reasons. That's why Toyota/Honda/Hyundai got huge subsidies from their government to do FCVs. It is linked to their energy policy. Everything went well until two things happened: 1) Fracking, it not only allowed the U.S. to have complete control of oil price for the next two decades, but also meant that Japan/Korea will no longer be competitive when it comes to hydrogen extraction 2) Tesla, it is revolutionary not because it looks cool, drives by itself, or whatever people get hyped about. It changed the landscape of alternative energy vehicles by proving a profitable BEV program is possible, right now, ten years before the industry has previously estimated.

As a result, those three companies realized what an unfortunate gamble they've made and rushed to have their own BEV programs. Luckily for them, they have easy access to the most advanced battery technology from the get-go. TMC has a partnership with Panasonic, who also supplies batteries for Tesla while Hyundai works with LG, who is second after Panasonic in battery tech.

You forgot about MB that has had FCV program as long as Japanese had, so did GM but they folded theirs while MB did not and just introduced new FCV vehicle.

I think you always take too simplistic view on things :-). For instance, Toyota probably has largest research team on next generation batteries, and they have had it at least since 2008.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080612/153224/
http://www.toyota.com.cn/innovation...logy/next_generation_secondary_batteries.html

Toyota owned companies started buying lithium ore supply since 2010:
http://www.toyota-tsusho.com/english/csr/business/case09.html

So it is not anything new. Their big investment into research of solid batteries started in 2010 and collaborates with big 4 japanese universities that have published the largest amount of academic papers into lithium batteries in the world. It is not something that started yesterday.

After all they sell 1.5m hybrids on yearly basis, only big manufacturer that actually has "electrified" big portion of their fleet and found it profitable. So it is nothing new. "Problem" is that like every other manufacturer, they do not want to lose money on building EVs now. Same as others dont really build hybrids but build PR pieces and throw numbers out to appease investors and yet they end up selling diesels. It is all about being profitable.

As to the Japan - Japan does not have enough electricity to power their homes and factories - it is a big problem for them. It is completely understandable why they are looking for a storage medium for power, such as FC stack. Germany, USA also invested a lot of money into R&D of FC, as well as batteries. US likely spent more money, just like they spent more money on battery R&D and yet no battery manufacturers survived.

So nothing is simple black and white.

spwolf

So nothing is simple black and white.

Hmmm..........

mmcartalk

Hmmm..........

hahaha

ssun30

Japan and Korea were the two countries that pushed the Hydrogen Economy idea the most for lots of reasons. That's why Toyota/Honda/Hyundai got huge subsidies from their government to do FCVs. It is linked to their energy policy. Everything went well until two things happened: 1) Fracking, it not only allowed the U.S. to have complete control of oil price for the next two decades, but also meant that Japan/Korea will no longer be competitive when it comes to hydrogen extraction 2) Tesla, it is revolutionary not because it looks cool, drives by itself, or whatever people get hyped about. It changed the landscape of alternative energy vehicles by proving a profitable BEV program is possible, right now, ten years before the industry has previously estimated.

I know this is off-topic, but I must point out you are greatly misinformed about Tesla. Tesla over the years has received massive subsidies from the US government. Billions and billions of dollars worth. Elon Musk is a brilliant man...but he is no god. Many observers, including yourself judging by your comments, all consider what Tesla has done in the industry to be revolutionary. However there is a really big problem with this perspective. Without US government subsidies, Tesla would not be where it is today. Furthermore, it has already been proven that in various international markets, Tesla sales have been mostly fueled by government consumer subsidies. When those subsidies ended in certain international markets, Tesla sales imploded.

So on the surface of it, Tesla's achievements seem revolutionary, almost too good to be true...because in reality, they are. For a brand new automobile company to come out of nowhere, and suddenly compete with the best automakers in the world. It seemed too good to be true. When you dig into the details, it certainly is. This is not a company competing purely by free market rules. This is a company fueled massively by direct government assistance and subsidies, not to mention sales fueled by subsidies in various international markets. Hypothetically, if there was such government backing and huge levels of subsidies for hydrogen vehicles worldwide, then I'm sure some automaker with hydrogen cars would be seen as quite successful right now too.

Also you are incorrect about Tesla being profitable. While Tesla is worth a huge amount of money in stock and on paper, the company actually keeps losing money. http://fortune.com/2017/05/04/tesla-motors-stock-earnings/

Tesla for the most part is unprofitable. Very much like a popular tech start-up company in fact. Massive revenues, massive valuation, yet no real profits but lots of losses. Tesla has a lot of hype and stock valuation simply on the belief that it will become profitable in the future, and that it is a "company of the future", not because the company is profitable right now.

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice

The LF-FC was a bold design move, exactly what Lexus needed to compete, head-to-head, with the S-Class. Something happened on the way to the production line, but the LF-FC was done away with, and so was a V8 engine in the LS. It may reappear in an LSC trim, but that, again, would fail compete directly with the now Mercedes S560.

This new design is no better than what it replaced, IMO. It is different, but not better. I preferred the squared-off front bumper and tall rear quarters of the last-gen car. This has more glitz, the previous had more road presence.

To Lexus' credit, at least they aren't trying to pass this off as a direct competitor to the S-Class, as their price indicates. It shows that Lexus is still afraid to step up and take on the Germans, directly.

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

Loud and clear.
BD

Black Dynamite

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice....
BD

What you wrote, applies the same way to BMW with the 7 Series and Audi with the A8 (not meant to excuse Lexus). I wonder what the next S Class will be like, but quite certainly better without the dropping line.