Next Generation Lexus LS to be Offered with V6 Hybrid?

That's the biggest thing about the LS getting a V6 hybrid -- without it, Lexus is conceding most of the European flagship market.

yes but they can do this without killing the 600h

Agreed.  No reason can't have both.

It definitely opens the door for a high performance LS, especially if the LS 600h is actually discontinued (which would surprise me -- that V8 hybrid is a dedicated powertrain not used in any other model).

hope sooooooo

Uhmm turbo does not give you good fuel economy at all.. In fact look at German's, they're also adopting Hyrbid technology slowly across their range.. No reason what so ever for a turbo or forced induction, Toyota made a Supercharged version of the Aurion called the Aurion TRD but it has been pulled of the market. The V6's in the Lexus & Toyota are able to compete and exceed to best of the best and our V6's (2GR-FE & 2GR-FSE) are approaching 8-yrs of age.. They they're the most efficient smooth, refined & powerful.. And most reliable.. 

like you said there engines are close to 8 years of age. It's starting to get old everytime we hear a Lexus introduced with the same old engine but with a couple of tweaks to increase hp and torque along wit mpg. Lexus needs to do something exciting with there engines IMO

My understanding is that Lexus is definitely planning some new engines, but that they be ready "when they're ready". Hopefully, that means some time soon.

When you say planning is it as in Lexus is thinking about new engines or are they developing it? It's always a mystery for Lexus .

yes that's what i mean they can do LS450h & keep the LS600h / LS600hL  nothing wrong to have 2 hybrids that what they already do in this new generation 2013GS GS450h and in markets as AUS & JAP will come soon the GS300h

Well, Toyota does have the 1GZ-FE V12 used in Century -- but it only delivers 310 hp and would need a significant boost in order to compete. Opens up an interesting discussion -- what would power the LS F?

I think Lexus can have it both ways -- one hybrid model prioritizing fuel economy and one that focuses on performance. In my mind, the LS 600hL tried to straddle the line rather than take it to the extreme in one direction.

I agree with you. I mean, there are MPG hybrid and performance hybrid. This one will have engines such as the third generation of Lexus Hybrid Drive for the LF-LC.

At one time, I appreciated that the LS was V8 only, but now it makes very little sense considering the power & smoothness available in a V6. (I no longer subscribe to the idea that the engine type -- 4-cyl, V6, V8 -- defines whether a car can be considered a luxury model.)

Even knowing that Europe wants diesel, Lexus can't deliver it since they are marketing themselves as a green and environmentally friendly brand. Lexus should offer hybrid alternatives to diesel since this is what makes Lexus a Lexus, this is its cliche.

"Luxury to different people means different things. Some want performance, others want efficiency. Lexus has to adapt to these demands." Well said.

Isn't this why they invented the F-sport? For performance go for f-sport for efficiency go with the non f-sport.

This brings up a good point -- if hybrids mean fuel efficiency and performance is F Sport, then what's the message behind the standard petrol engines?

I was hoping lexus would have two different flavors to there cars. A fuel efficient line-up for people that are more mpg than mph, and a more tuned version for people that want mph than mpg. More tuned engine suspension etc for performance etc etc...

Excellent comment, and one that I hope Lexus is paying attention to.

I want to see Lexus take it further, with a high-end LS F to compete with the S AMG.

I'd like to see this as well -- ECO mode in a Lexus right now is very conservatively programmed, and it would be great to see the the battery power used more aggressively.

yes agree, but honestly Lexus has to adapt to the demands for hybrids and diesel. In european countries they want diesel so make more diesel cars over there. In the US people want petrol and hybrids so focus on these aspects and make more of what is trending in each country.

The S400 Hybrid isn't selling at all. While I see S-classes every day i just once saw an S400 Hybrid. In that range of cars in Europe: no diesel, no sell. They can make the V6 hybrid as efficient as a Prius and it still won't sell more than half a dozen per year as a grand total across Europe. Stupid thing is: They just don't get that fact.

Yes I believe they did a comparison about high end hybrids and the s400 came out last out of 4 places...

What's surprising about Lexus vs. diesel -- all it would take is one mid-range diesel engine and they could drop it in the IS, GS, LS, & RX. Something like the 3.0 L V6 from Mercedes that puts out 258 hp could work in every one of those vehicles.

Argh!

No way to say for sure, but I don't think it will be long now.

It is being released in Australia in October 2012. I would imagine it will be released in the US at the same time.

That syncs up with what I'm hearing.

I have seen one photo of the car. I understand it is a major facelift (spindle grill, GS interior etc). Designed to run for two years with all new model coming in 14. Not sure if there will be any engine changes.

A LS 350 would be great, but I don't see it happening. Hope I'm wrong.

An LS450h with a 3L petrol engine should solve the problem of expensive road tax.

Exactly! The LS is the flagship, it should have the flagship engine and everything else.. The V6, which the 2GR-FE & 2GR-FSE are the best engines (6 cylinders) available today are well suited for the entry & mid-level cars..  the 2GR-FE is an extraordinary piece of engineering, extremely smooth, refined & velvety in operation.. Camry V6 (2GR-FE)  0-60mph in 5.8sec! 

i agree.. it should be no question whether the next generation LS needs a V6 hybrid. Of course! Like other people already said - different engines for each market. But Lexus should keep the LS 600h as an "hybrid performance model" in there lineup.

Not sure about all of your picks (LS 300h is pushing it, even for me), but I would think the next-generation LS will retain its 4.6L engine as well.

I disagree. Diesel might not be the future, but it definitely isn't the past. If you now sell cars in some segments with 80+% diesel engines, then this is your main way to earn money. Just relying on the fact that 10 years down the road hybrids will start to be of any economical relevance in Europe is not going to give you the money to develop those future cars.  There is no reason whatsoever besides not wanting to sell cars for Toyota of not putting the 4,5 D-4D V8 Twin-Turbo Diesel from the Landcruiser in the LS. In the LC the 1VD-FTV gives 50% more torque, and offers 40% better fuel efficiency than the 1UR-FE. The engine is there, the car is there and the market is there.

As a brand in it's 'legimity phase' building awareness on communicating for years now purely on hybrid technology, it would be a complete non sens to start now with powerful but noisy and polluting diesels.  As if you would all of a sudden completely deny the very own brand USP's.  I don't disagree that the European market is still a diesel market right now, but it is fundamentally changing.  The V8 diesel engine you refer at is a complete no go in Europe with way too high CO2 emissions. On top of this: there is no way that Toyota diesel technology can compete with any of the German 3 diesel engines.  Since 15 years Toyota is investing in petrol hybrid technology, not in diesel technology unlike the European brands.  As a good example of failure: just look at the debacle of Infiniti in Europe... they try to convince European customers with European diesel engines (Renault in this case), but have CO2 figures that are way too high compared to the German competitors.  And so they sell peanuts.  In Europe Lexus Hybrid models are positioned as diesel competitors.  Lexus in Europe will never achieve sales figures like BMW but that is not the target either.  In Europe Lexus will stay small and exclusive, but has to sell more to be able to survive...  Therefore it needs more engines per model, but only if they can be class leading in CO2 related to performance.

I just find this entire conversation so interesting -- it's so difficult to balance the future of the European market with the realities of the present, and I think that's what's so hard to understand.  There's this sense that Lexus doesn't want to "pollute" its brand image with diesel technology, and is willing to sacrifice marketshare in Europe in order to maintain its position as THE luxury hybrid manufacturer. The question is -- what happens when all the other brands start spreading hybrid powertrains throughout their lineup? Won't Lexus be back at square one?

Modern diesels are actually clean, refined (smooth) and powerful. My experiences with diesel rental cars in Europe has opened my eyes in that regard - and these are usually entry-level models, to. Before buying my Mercedes E350 Convertible I tested the diesel E350 Bluetec sedan because they didn't have an E class coupe or convertible available on that day for testing. I was impressed with the car. Good performance but above all the refinement was pretty sweet. I wouldn't say no to this car, but I wanted the convertible so the E sedan didn't fit my needs. I did own a diesel Mercedes' in the past, an E290 Turbodiesel Wagon W210, one of the few sold in the US at the time. Even for its time (and even today), I'd consider that car to have had some impressive engine refinement for a diesel. It was quiet for its time, especially inside the cabin one couldn't hear the engine (unless it wasn't warmed up). Now, with improving modern engine technology and sound-deadening-materials, a current diesel engine can be made smooth and refined. The problem I see is this. Lexus doesn't need diesels outside of Europe, so they won't invest resources in designing and engineering and testing one from scratch. It's not financially logical. Is it doable? Yes. But is it worth the investments? Hardly. They could source a diesel motor from Toyota, but from what I hear the IS200d and IS220d engines aren't that great. The V8 diesel from the Land Cruiser is overkill. Lexus does need a 4-cylinder and V6 diesel for their IS and GS and LS models in Europe (as well as for the RX). A 4-cylinder diesel for the CT200h wouldn't be bad either. In the end I don't think Europe is that important to Lexus. Many luxury shoppers in Europe place emphasis on brand prestige and history and Lexus lacks that. Look no further than the BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi etc. museums and that tells you what those brands are all about. People can identify with those brands. Lexus is at a severe disadvantage in this case. A recent business article suggested that emotions play an ever increasing role when shops for a luxury car, especially in Europe. A European can identify say with BMW, their motorsport heritage and the many classic and historical cars they've created. That's a very emotional aspect. It's also a powerful and alluring aspect that draws in customers. Mercedes' has it. Audi has it. Porsche has it. One could even say that brands like Fiat or Skoda or Citroen also have it. Lexus - in Europe - does not. Hence, I'm not to concerned with Lexus in Europe. I see the presence of Lexus in Europe as being more of a financial drain than bringing in any future profits. The UK and Russia seem to be their "biggest markets" there.

The issue at Lexus seems to be the idea of trading in on their hybrid image for the benefits of short term sales with diesel -- it's a strategy that's difficult to watch (especially for Lexus enthusiasts in Europe), but could result in benefits in the long term. As for history & heritage -- well, that's not something Lexus can do anything about, and will just take time. 

But diesels in Europe are not going to disappear overnight. They're an integral part of the European car culture. Lexus can't ignore it. Hybrids are also expensive in Europe. A car with a regular gasoline engine or diesel motor is seen as more practical and less complex, to. In an ideal world Lexus would be offering both diesels, gasoline and hybrid motors to their European clients - CHOICES.

Lexus will ignore diesel in Europe.  The BMW deal they did specifically applied to Toyota only - they cannot put BMW diesel motors into Lexus. What will kill the diesel is ever tighter air quality legislation in Europe - we are only just catching up with the US on this.  Even Euro 6 which comes into force in 2015 is only as tight as most US states now.  California I believe has even tighter standards.  NOX is the big issue.  Even my 2009 LS600h emits 3 times LESS NOX than the Euro 6 2012 S350 Bluetec diesal.  If and when they do a Euro 7 standard I think diesel will be in big trouble. What Lexus IS waking up too is that people equate hybrid with economy.  So we will see the GS300h next year and I'd be gobsmacked if a LS450h doesnt come at some point (though not necessarily for 2013).  I think the GS300h will be a very important car for Lexus in Europe.  If it works and sells then I would expect that downsizing thinking to spread to other models including the LS.

They are not going to put up some too strict to achieve Euro 7 goals. European governements are not going to kill their companies big sellers.  Same as with your US government. They are not going to impose CAFE MPG so high that Toyota hybrids will be the only cars allowed. That MPG number will be found in consensus with GM/Ford/Chrysler. The GS300h will be important, as numerous countries have taxes based on horsepower. But even more important would be a GS wagon. Same goes for the IS.  Like the ES350 / 300h my guess for the next LS will be 500 / 450h.

Thank you for sharing -- your comment really helps to frame the European situation, which has become one of the most interesting Lexus storylines. At this point, I'd like to see even one diesel shared throughout the lineup.

MT, I perfectly understand your comments, but it is an old discussion.  Unfortunately Lexus is still recovering of the bad image of its only diesel engine it most likely will ever have.  The IS 220d has given one single positive item: a lot of after sales business.  For the rest it was already killed by competition on the moment it was launched.  The later 200d version didn't help.  Again, unfortunately. The number of Lexus on the road is strongly depending from country to country in Europe.  If you say you only see IS diesel on the road, you definitely don't live in The Netherlands, where Lexus is almost becoming a single model brand with it's CT 200h succes! ;-) Lexus has an interesting business case here in Europe, even without diesel.  A diesel would still help a lot, of course, to boost sales on the short and mid term, but would be a catastrophy for its image on the long term.  But the brand has to be very careful of offering sufficient hybrid engine choices and models...

Well, there's another way to look at -- if Lexus stayed hybrid only, but offered a deeper range of engine options, would that be enough to interest the European buyer?

More options will help boost sales. Maybe a second engine option boosts sales of a model more than one would expect just because the customer gets "the model I chose, that fits best" not "the only one they have".  In europe when buying a car one doesn't go to the dealer lot and chooses one car. You go through endless cycles of choosing engine options, test driving them, configuring the gadgetry, blabla. 90% of the Toyotas/Lexuses bought are manufactured specifically to that configuration. And they have 4 to 5 months delivery time.

Too many engine options -- I can't see more than three powertrains in the LS, at least in North America, and I would be very surprised at a turbo-charged LS. Like your other ideas though.

I said three engines.  Hybrid, V8, and Turbo V8 BD