Who's Really the Worst?

[Bulldog 1]

• General Motors
• Volkswagen
• Hyundai

Who is the most egregious of this trio of automotive manufacturers who have received negative press for their recalls?
My two cents:
Hyundai, just announced today, recalling nearly a half million cars to replace the engines!
It will take weeks for the recall to in as Hyundai has to stockpile engines throughout the nation.
Cheated? The consumer.
Volkswagen got caught with a banana in their tailpipe (Eddie Murphy / 48 Hours).
A scandal so shameful to the rigid Germans, their CEO activated his Golden Parachute years in advance.
Cheated? Earth in general. Higher concentration of diesel pollution to choke both our environment and the human population.
General Motors stands alone as their burying of heads in sand over faulty keys and ignition switches led to actual and tragic fatalities.
To their credit, Hyundai is undertaking their massive engine swap recall to mitigate a repeat of GM knowing their engines are stalling and could lead to dead engines at high speeds.
There are enough deaths daily from automobile accidents, much less automobile manufacturers speeding up the process.

 

[IS-SV]

I'm not sure how useful this ranking is (because it's not), here's a couple cents:

1. Volkswagen - No need to elaborate, but this diesel-related fraud is so widespread it now puts the entire company at risk. They earned poster child status for diesel stink, filth and toxic levels of air pollution so common where passenger car diesels predominate. No thanks, glad it (passenger car diesel) never got traction in U.S., VW just killed it off.

2. Hyundai - Mentioned current engine recalls here, but also they admitted cheating/falsifying EPA gas mileage estimates and paid huge fines and payments to customers accordingly. Questionable corporate ethics to say the least.

3. GM - Burying their heads in sand has been going on for decades at this bloated giant of company that specializes in so-so badge-engineering, largely expected.

 

[mikeavelli]

I think Hyundai's lying on MPG figures is much worse than the recent recall. Recalls are a part of being a car maker and car owner. It was super obvious that Hyundai was overstating MPG figures just reading forums. Only shills were meeting and exceeding MPG claims. I believe Ford got hit with fines too for this.

GM's case is sad but they didn't make the ignition switch faulty on purpose (from my understanding) they just didn't fix it/ignored the problem which of course was pitiful.

VW is so recent that it feels like the worst now. There is significant ethical issues to purposely cheat laws now in various countries. We will never know how many indirect deaths millions of cars with unlawful pollution has caused. How many retirees who had VW stock have now suffered due to VW admitting they broke the law?

Not sure if I can rank them but all are pretty bad. I would say Hyundai is the best of the worst here since no deaths can be attributed to their exaggerated MPG claims.

 

[mmcartalk]

I think Hyundai's lying on MPG figures is much worse than the recent recall. Recalls are a part of being a car maker and car owner. It was super obvious that Hyundai was overstating MPG figures just reading forums. Only shills were meeting and exceeding MPG claims. I believe Ford got hit with fines too for this.

I certainly won't condone any deliberate or intentional MPG-fudging, although so many different factors come into play that it can sometimes be difficult to actually separate fact from fiction in that department. And my personal experience, over many years, with many different vehicles, is that it's usually easier to match (or exceed) the EPA Highway figures on the open road than it is to get the EPA City figures in stop-and-go driving, which really eats up the fuel, especially in cold weather. And, with the Hyundai/Ford mileage claims, it is unlikely that anyone would have been hurt or killed by them (unless they simply ran out of gas on a busy road and got rear-ended)....but fuel-gauges, charge-meters, an warning lights are supposed to prevent that problem.

GM's case is sad but they didn't make the ignition switch faulty on purpose (from my understanding) they just didn't fix it/ignored the problem which of course was pitiful.

Although it didn't get much press until relatively recently, GM, from my memory, has made rather small flimsy ignition keys and switches going all the way back to the 1960s, when I first learned to drive. To their credit, though, GM invented the side-column-mounted key/switch design back in 1969 that locked the steering/transmission.....and the Feds were so impressed with it that they made it a requirement for the next year (1970) when Ford/Chrysler/AMC followed suit. The switches on several of today's Buicks are Opel-designed, and, of course, not affected by the problems in many of the other GM-sourced switches.

VW is so recent that it feels like the worst now. There is significant ethical issues to purposely cheat laws now in various countries. We will never know how many indirect deaths millions of cars with unlawful pollution has caused. How many retirees who had VW stock have now suffered due to VW admitting they broke the law?

I'll agree to some extent, but, at the same time, with cancer and other lung-diseases from emissions, at least there is time to medically detect them and, if possible, treat them. I personally think the Ford Pinto fuel-tank problem was far worse, for three reasons......First, because, despite warnings from engineers, it was deliberately done that way to save weight and cost on the frame-crossmembers. Second, Ford knew some would die or be injured, but figured the liability-costs would be less than production costs for the extra crossmember. Third, when a Pinto went up like a Roman candle on a rear-impact, there was obviously no time to deal with it or prevent it medically...many people were either burned/injured seriously or became toast. I'm usually not one for big judgements against auto companies for frivolous reasons....but there was nothing frivolous about that Ford case. They deserved every penny of the fines and judgements levied against them. Part of it was the personality and dictatorial management style of King Henry (Henry Ford II)...but that's a subject for another thread, not this one.

 

[IS-SV]

I certainly won't condone any deliberate or intentional MPG-fudging, although so many different factors come into play that it can sometimes be difficult to actually separate fact from fiction in that department..

Yes EPA estimates and actual results may vary, we know that here.

But Mike mentioned "Hyundai's lying in MPG figures" above and facts were separated from fiction on that topic.
Hyundai admitted to knowing factual fuel economy data and admitted to publishing/lying about fuel economy instead. It was no accident, they actually admitted the deception (after being called on carpet).

 

[Och]

I think Hyundai's lying on MPG figures is much worse than the recent recall. Recalls are a part of being a car maker and car owner. It was super obvious that Hyundai was overstating MPG figures just reading forums. Only shills were meeting and exceeding MPG claims. I believe Ford got hit with fines too for this.

I personally don't see that as being such a big deal. First of all the numbers were overstated by what, 1 mpg? I'm yet to see a car that achieves anywhere near its EPA mpg rating anyway. Everyone overstates their efficiency, whether its petrol car manufacturers with MPG figures, electric car manufacturers with charge range issues. It applies to most other industries as well, laptop and phone manufacturers overstate their battery hours, LED bulb manufacturers overstate efficiency, life expectancy and brightness of their bulbs vs incandescent bulbs, computer storage manufacturers that claim capacity in gigabytes/terabytes basing them on 1000mb per gigabyte or 1000 gigabytes per terabyte when it should be 1024. Then you have cheaper audio systems that claim 500watt output than in reality is more like 100, and so on. And the worst are probably printer ink cartridge manufacturers.

Its important to just be realistic in your expectations when it comes to filtering the marketing bs.

 

[IS-SV]

Note: Hyundai's gas mileage fudging was in range of 1 - 6 mpg, on 1.2 million vehicles.

 

[Och]

Although it didn't get much press until relatively recently, GM, from my memory, has made rather small flimsy ignition keys and switches going all the way back to the 1960s, when I first learned to drive. To their credit, though, GM invented the side-column-mounted key/switch design back in 1969 that locked the steering/transmission.....and the Feds were so impressed with it that they made it a requirement for the next year (1970) when Ford/Chrysler/AMC followed suit. The switches on several of today's Buicks are Opel-designed, and, of course, not affected by the problems in many of the other GM-sourced switches.

What is the point of locking steering when ignition is off? I think it can become a hazard if the vehicle stalls on the highway, and steering locks.

 

[Ruksac]

Volkswagen got caught with a banana in their tailpipe (Eddie Murphy / 48 Hours).

Beverly Hills Cop, for the OCD movie fans out there.

 

[mikeavelli]

I personally don't see that as being such a big deal. First of all the numbers were overstated by what, 1 mpg? I'm yet to see a car that achieves anywhere near its EPA mpg rating anyway. Everyone overstates their efficiency, whether its petrol car manufacturers with MPG figures, electric car manufacturers with charge range issues. It applies to most other industries as well, laptop and phone manufacturers overstate their battery hours, LED bulb manufacturers overstate efficiency, life expectancy and brightness of their bulbs vs incandescent bulbs, computer storage manufacturers that claim capacity in gigabytes/terabytes basing them on 1000mb per gigabyte or 1000 gigabytes per terabyte when it should be 1024. Then you have cheaper audio systems that claim 500watt output than in reality is more like 100, and so on. And the worst are probably printer ink cartridge manufacturers.

Its important to just be realistic in your expectations when it comes to filtering the marketing bs.

Note: Hyundai's gas mileage fudging was in range of 1 - 6 mpg, on 1.2 million vehicles.

Thanks guys.


Much like VW, people do base their buying decision on the facts presented to them by the manufacturer. Thus thousands of people bought these cars expecting the to meet the MPG advertised as well as in VW's case being a "clean diesel".

Now I am no pollution expert but I am now a parent and I wonder how those higher levels of pollution could affect a baby or child that is around it constantly. We just will never be able to get to the full scope of things.

I certainly won't condone any deliberate or intentional MPG-fudging, although so many different factors come into play that it can sometimes be difficult to actually separate fact from fiction in that department. And my personal experience, over many years, with many different vehicles, is that it's usually easier to match (or exceed) the EPA Highway figures on the open road than it is to get the EPA City figures in stop-and-go driving, which really eats up the fuel, especially in cold weather. And, with the Hyundai/Ford mileage claims, it is unlikely that anyone would have been hurt or killed by them (unless they simply ran out of gas on a busy road and got rear-ended)....but fuel-gauges, charge-meters, an warning lights are supposed to prevent that problem.



Although it didn't get much press until relatively recently, GM, from my memory, has made rather small flimsy ignition keys and switches going all the way back to the 1960s, when I first learned to drive. To their credit, though, GM invented the side-column-mounted key/switch design back in 1969 that locked the steering/transmission.....and the Feds were so impressed with it that they made it a requirement for the next year (1970) when Ford/Chrysler/AMC followed suit. The switches on several of today's Buicks are Opel-designed, and, of course, not affected by the problems in many of the other GM-sourced switches.



I'll agree to some extent, but, at the same time, with cancer and other lung-diseases from emissions, at least there is time to medically detect them and, if possible, treat them. I personally think the Ford Pinto fuel-tank problem was far worse, for three reasons......First, because, despite warnings from engineers, it was deliberately done that way to save weight and cost on the frame-crossmembers. Second, Ford knew some would die or be injured, but figured the liability-costs would be less than production costs for the extra crossmember. Third, when a Pinto went up like a Roman candle on a rear-impact, there was obviously no time to deal with it or prevent it medically...many people were either burned/injured seriously or became toast. I'm usually not one for big judgements against auto companies for frivolous reasons....but there was nothing frivolous about that Ford case. They deserved every penny of the fines and judgements levied against them. Part of it was the personality and dictatorial management style of King Henry (Henry Ford II)...but that's a subject for another thread, not this one.

All I know is every Lexus I've had has met the advertised MPG, even the GS 450h. They also met emissions requirements. If they lied about these things and were found out, trust is completely broken here. What else might they lie about? I know Lexus gets a lot of **** on internet forums but I for one can appreciate they stand behind the product and produce as announced without any funny business.

 

[Och]

All I know is every Lexus I've had has met the advertised MPG, even the GS 450h. They also met emissions requirements. If they lied about these things and were found out, trust is completely broken here. What else might they lie about? I know Lexus gets a lot of **** on internet forums but I for one can appreciate they stand behind the product and produce as announced without any funny business.

Lexus is a premium product, and when it comes to most premium products they usually perform close to the manufacturers claims. With cheaper products, claims get more and more overstated and sometimes become downright ridiculous.

 

[IS-SV]

I currently have a Lexus, Mercedes, Honda and all get mileage within 1 mpg of EPA estimates for city and highway mileage. IMO that's acceptable actual fuel efficiency (versus EPA estimates) after tens of thousands of miles driven. It's not that rare today, I expect it. Missing by 1 to 6 mpg because the automaker chooses to cheat/lie is not acceptable, IMO.

 

[Och]

I currently have a Lexus, Mercedes, Honda and all get mileage within 1 mpg of EPA estimates for city and highway mileage. IMO that's acceptable actual fuel efficiency (versus EPA estimates) after tens of thousands of miles driven. It's not that rare today, I expect it.

Maybe for you guys living in softer climates with less congestion, it is more realistic to achieve EPA claimed economy. In NYC I haven't seen a single vehicle that gets anywhere near the EPA estimates.

 

[IS-SV]

Maybe for you guys living in softer climates with less congestion, it is more realistic to achieve EPA claimed economy. In NYC I haven't seen a single vehicle that gets anywhere near the EPA estimates.

Agreed, climate in and around Silicon Valley is best of Mediterranean climate type (softer is accurate).

We have horrible traffic here too, but nothing like NYC. NYC traffic is more like idling for what seems like forever, at 0 mpg.

 

[mmcartalk]

Much like VW, people do base their buying decision on the facts presented to them by the manufacturer. Thus thousands of people bought these cars expecting the to meet the MPG advertised as well as in VW's case being a "clean diesel".

IMHO, that simply indicates a need for the public, as a whole, to be more educated. I've never bought a vehicle in my life simply based on manufacturer or EPA-claimed mileage.....simply because too many factors can affect it.

Now I am no pollution expert but I am now a parent and I wonder how those higher levels of pollution could affect a baby or child that is around it constantly. We just will never be able to get to the full scope of things.

While it doesn't remove all pollution hazards, one thing that does help significantly are the fine-particle micro-filters used in the A/C systems of most newer vehicles. It's one more service-item, of course, to change at regular intervals, but definitely helps.

 

[mmcartalk]

What is the point of locking steering when ignition is off? I think it can become a hazard if the vehicle stalls on the highway, and steering locks.

Originally, it was supposed to make cars more difficult to steal, but, of course, there are ways around that. Even today, though, some insurance companies still give a discount for it.

 

[mmcartalk]

Agreed, climate in and around Silicon Valley is best of Mediterranean climate type (softer is accurate).

We have horrible traffic here too, but nothing like NYC. NYC traffic is more like idling for what seems like forever, at 0 mpg.

Yeah, the downtown traffic is probably worse in NYC, but for suburban traffic, D.C. and L.A. take the cake....endless sprawl and congestion goes out far away from the city itself.

 

[Brooks2IS]

Yeah, the downtown traffic is probably worse in NYC, but for suburban traffic, D.C. and L.A. take the cake....endless sprawl and congestion goes out far away from the city itself.

Ever been on the Atlanta downtown connector? It can be grueling as well... No civil engineer could've expected Atlanta's rapid growth.

 

[mmcartalk]

Ever been on the Atlanta downtown connector? It can be grueling as well... No civil engineer could've expected Atlanta's rapid growth.

Yes....Definitely. Atlanta now ranks from 3rd to 5th place nationally for traffic congestion, depending on which study it was.

 

[IS-SV]

Ever been on the Atlanta downtown connector? It can be grueling as well... No civil engineer could've expected Atlanta's rapid growth.

When I planned to leave from Atlanta airport I was warned by locals to avoid rush hours, so I went on Sunday.

We have similar problems here in Bay Area of northern CA, even with newer roads in west. Since #1 and #2 big cities in US for white collar job growth are in the Bay Area, the traffic increase post-recession is ridiculous. Our mass transit systems are finally seeing full utilization, that rarely happened before.

Oh yea, topic here is top 3 worst companies with barfy flavor of month being VW. Unfortunately for VW this stigma could last for many months/years. The investigations could expose just how lame corporate culture is.