Toyota On Mirai Vs. Tesla: Battery Electric Vehicles Have 'Fundamental' Physics Problem

[mikeavelli]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...ic-vehicles-have-fundamental-physics-problem/

Very good read

A Toyota executive explains why he believes the Mirai and hydrogen fuel cells will power the alternative fuel vehicle future — and not battery electrics like Tesla.

Toyota will begin taking “requests” for its hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicle Mirai on Monday. The initial goal is 3,000 units by the end of 2017. With a range of EPA estimated 312 miles, the car will launch in California in October, 2015.

So, why the hydrogen fuel-cell electric Mirai and not, for instance, a long-range battery version of the Prius? I asked Craig Scott, national alternative fuel vehicle manager at Toyota, to explain. Below is an excerpt from that interview.

Q: Why doesn’t Toyota believe in battery technology as a long-range solution for alternative fuel vehicles?
Scott: We don’t see any battery technology that would allow us to…give customers a comparable driving experience at a reasonable price. We don’t see anything for the next ten years because if there was something in the laboratory today it would probably take seven to ten years to get into a production vehicle. With batteries there is a fundamental science problem that we don’t know how to solve. It’s going to require a new material that doesn’t yet exist. How long that takes is anyone’s guess. But when you look at fuel cells, we’ve already identified all of the materials that are necessary to have a substantial cost reduction and the performance of the vehicle already matches that of a gasoline vehicle. The only remaining challenges really are getting further cost reductions, which is something we’re doing anyway.

(Note that for short distances around town battery-powered “electrics are perfect,” according to a Toyota.)

Q: The puts you at odds with Tesla.
Scott: You can shoehorn all sorts of things but that doesn’t make it a practical or cost-effective solution. If you measure energy density, for example, a gasoline engine has huge volumetric energy density. It allows you to put 10 or 12 gallons and drive 300 or 400 miles. The same isn’t true for batteries. It’s at the opposite end of the spectrum. You approach a limit for every additional battery you’re putting in the car, you’re getting incremental distance. So, from that point of view, you have a physics problem. You have no material that will allow you to overcome that hurdle today. Then you have the challenge of charging because you can’t charge batteries too quickly. So, you have a physics problem you’re not going to solve unless somebody invents a new material. Nobody makes more batteries than Toyota. We’ve been doing batteries longer than anyone in the automotive business. Which is why we’re so bullish on fuel cells. We don’t see those same hurdles.

 

[Gecko]

Great article. Thanks for sharing!

 

[mmcartalk]

As I see it, the obvious drawback to fuel-cell cars, right now, in most parts of the country (some parts of California may be an exception), is a simple lack of compressed-hydrogen refueling stations. Pure battery-electric cars may have their range drawbacks, but, if one has the time or patience to wait for recharging, it's usually a whole lot easier to find a 110V or 220V outlet than a hydrogen-refill station. Some places now have special manufacturer-developed 400V chargers that will do the job in as little as 20-30 minutes.

 

[Och]

I think the interest in hybrids/electrics/hydrogen cars has died off a great bit since the hype of late 00's.

Let them pluck away trying to design an alternative fuel vehicle, meanwhile I'll enjoy my good old ICEs that are now better than ever.

 

[mmcartalk]

I think the interest in hybrids/electrics/hydrogen cars has died off a great bit since the hype of late 00's.

How much of that, though, is permanent, and how much is simply inexpensive gas at the moment is hard to say.

 

[CIF]

Brilliant article, thanks for sharing!

 

[mikeavelli]

Bump for relevance….

 

[bogglo]

Saw a Mirai today and the road presence it has makes me wish there was a GS and hope that the crown sedan makes it to the state.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Saw a Mirai today and the road presence it has makes me wish there was a GS and hope that the crown sedan makes it to the state.

Crown Sedan = Lexus GS

 

[mikeavelli]

Crown Sedan = Lexus GS

I believe the new Crown is TNGA-K so it’s fwd or awd. AWD is standard on the crown.

The Mirai is based on TNGA-L so it’s a shortened LS platform and is RWD or AWD.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I believe the new Crown is TNGA-K so it’s fwd or awd. AWD is standard on the crown.

The Mirai is based on TNGA-L so it’s a shortened LS platform and is RWD or AWD.

Crown Sedan my guy... not the lifted sedan...