Toyota/Lexus Midsize FR Sedan Discussion (Crown, GS) - Replaced with a CUV?

What do you think it is?

  • Lexus GS

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Toyota Crown

    Votes: 25 78.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 9.4%

  • Total voters
    32

maiaramdan

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^^^
Agree regarding the maneuvering will be very hard on most small streets but still the width difference between the Crown and the GS is not that huge difference though, now we still don't know what is Toyota's next move
 

Carmaker1

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Sorry, but I have to correct myself. The platform the S220 Crown is on, is actually the rear wheel drive TNGA-N. No Toyota-brand badged will likely ever use GA-L, which is uniquely a Lexus-only application. There is no such thing as TNGA-L apparently either. Only GA-L

As of now Toyota Motor Company only has 4 monocoque RWD architectures. New N (2011), GA-L (2017), shared BMW-TMC (2019), and TNGA-N (2018).

This seems like a move to truly separate RWD Lexus from Toyota altogether.
 

CIF

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Sorry, but I have to correct myself. The platform the S220 Crown is on, is actually the rear wheel drive TNGA-N. No Toyota-brand badged will likely ever use GA-L, which is uniquely a Lexus-only application. There is no such thing as TNGA-L apparently either. Only GA-L

As of now Toyota Motor Company only has 4 monocoque RWD architectures. New N (2011), GA-L (2017), shared BMW-TMC (2019), and TNGA-N (2018).

This seems like a move to truly separate RWD Lexus from Toyota altogether.

Just to clarify, TNGA-L and GA-L are the same thing. TN can be interchangeably used as an optional prefix on all TNGA platforms. Toyota has admitted as much because if you pour over every single TNGA related press release as I have done, sometimes Toyota uses a GA-_ designation instead of TNGA-_ when TNGA-_ is consistently expected and vice versa.

So TNGA-L or GA-L, it doesn't matter as it is the same platform. Now GA-_ logically is supposed to denote only Lexus models/platforms, while TNGA-_ is supposed to denote only Toyota models, but Toyota has not been 100% consistent with this in press releases.

So for example, TNGA-K on the XV70 Camry and GA-K on the XV70 ES is the same platform. That doesn't mean that minor differences cannot exist, but ultimately it is the same platform. Minor differences include things such as increased laser welds and increased body adhesive on the XV70 ES GA-K compared to the XV70 Camry TNGA-K.
 

Carmaker1

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Just to clarify, TNGA-L and GA-L are the same thing. TN can be interchangeably used as an optional prefix on all TNGA platforms. Toyota has admitted as much because if you pour over every single TNGA related press release as I have done, sometimes Toyota uses a GA-_ designation instead of TNGA-_ when TNGA-_ is consistently expected and vice versa.

So TNGA-L or GA-L, it doesn't matter as it is the same platform. Now GA-_ logically is supposed to denote only Lexus models/platforms, while TNGA-_ is supposed to denote only Toyota models, but Toyota has not been 100% consistent with this in press releases.

So for example, TNGA-K on the XV70 Camry and GA-K on the XV70 ES is the same platform. That doesn't mean that minor differences cannot exist, but ultimately it is the same platform. Minor differences include things such as increased laser welds and increased body adhesive on the XV70 ES GA-K compared to the XV70 Camry TNGA-K.

I'm very aware of TNGA nomenclature, as I had speculated the ES debuting GA-K about 18-24 months ago and UX GA-C, based on GA-L possibly equaling TNGA-L in JDM, with TN chopped off for Lexus. Possibly I got ahead of myself, as TNGA-L doesn't exist as a name and they instead have TNGA-N.

Regarding GA-K versus TNGA-K, that is very interesting though. Just don't understand why the Crown version is so different, unlike GA-K vs TNGA-K.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Regarding GA-K versus TNGA-K, that is very interesting though. Just don't understand why the Crown version is so different, unlike GA-K vs TNGA-K.
@Carmaker1 : How would you describe the architecture similarities and differences between TNGA-N (Crown15) and GA-L (Lexus LC and 5LS)?
 

Gecko

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I was thinking about this today and flipped it around a bit: What does no GS mean for the next Crown? At this point, Crown is the only production car to use the GA-N chassis until the Mirai arrives. Even then, the Mirai will be extremely low volume, so the use case for this platform is an extremely limited one. With no GS and a likely chance of the IS also being discontinued, I wonder if the Crown could also transition to FWD on GA-K in the future?

Before the current generation debuted, I remember reading some Japanese rumors mentioning that the JDM Crown could potentially become a rebadge of the USDM Avalon.

I don't know much about how the car is viewed in Japan, or who buys it, but would FWD be out of the question?
 

Will1991

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Perhaps the Crown will move upmarket and share some core-components with next-gen LS? Crown is the only Toyota to have the LS/LC MultiStage...

Also, Camry and Avalon merging into just one for the next generation?
Corolla, (Camry and Avalon merging into one) Camry, Crown, Century for the sedan segment would be enough IMO...

Even for Lexus:
A LWB Corolla based, ES, LS would be enough sedans....
 

ssun30

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Crown owners don't know much about cars. They just want a comfortable insulation box. FWD or RWD either is fine.

IMO the problem with Avalon is the design is too aggressive. Despite its sporty focus the S220 Crown still looks pretty unassuming. Crown owners do not want to stand out. The enormous grille on the Avalon screams 'LOOK AT ME! ' which is why it's so popular in China. If Japanese people want to be seen they buy European brands or Lexus.

A LS-derived Crown will be too expensive as a fleet vehicle for the government and police. It's also too large (wider than the Century) to maneuver effectively on narrow streets.

Another thing to consider is that all public service vehicles are mandated to be hybrids but none of the hybrid FWD sedans have an AWD option. The Crown hybrid does offer AWD, so they probably won't replace it with the Camry.

The way I look at it, the S220 will have a very long life cycle (10 years+) because buyers don't mind it being old.
 
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Gecko

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So essentially, the Crown is a large/midsize premium sedan that primarily rides on nostalgia as a business case, is that right?

Seems to me that there would be some natural consolidation among vehicles like the the Camry, Avalon, ES, Crown and Mirai just as there was with the GS. I just don't see how Toyota will leave the Crown on its own RWD platform when the sales volume is even smaller than the GS.

I have no idea if the Avalon will live to see another generation when so many of its competitors are dead or dying: Taurus, Impala, Buicks, the list goes on. Maybe Toyota has seen enough value to keep it going? I recall reading that the vehicle most commonly cross shopped with the ES is the Avalon, so it seems like Toyota could cut the Avalon and expect to keep a percent of those buyers in an ES. If they do, perhaps a version could also be platform engineered as a Crown.

@ssun30, Toyota does have E-Four AWD on the Camry Hybrid, so I assume that is scaleable to the Avalon, ES and other GA-K platform mates.
 

mmcartalk

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Crown owners don't know much about cars. They just want a comfortable insulation box.
With all due respect, I have to disagree with that statement. One can like (and know a lot about) cars that provide comfort and do not assault your ears or kidneys. To be knowledgeable about cars does not necessarily have to be sport-oriented. For example, I have been a car enthusiast for over half a century.....but not a speed or aggressive-driving enthusiast. 😉

IMO the problem with Avalon is the design is too aggressive.

Agreed. So was the ride-comfort on the 2013-2015 models....until they toned the suspension and tires down a little in 2016, from customer complaints.
 

spwolf

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IMO the problem with Avalon is the design is too aggressive. Despite its sporty focus the S220 Crown still looks pretty unassuming. Crown owners do not want to stand out. The enormous grille on the Avalon screams 'LOOK AT ME! ' which is why it's so popular in China.

you cant have it both ways... Avalon is very popular, so its design is actually a hit.
 

spwolf

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So essentially, the Crown is a large/midsize premium sedan that primarily rides on nostalgia as a business case, is that right?

Seems to me that there would be some natural consolidation among vehicles like the the Camry, Avalon, ES, Crown and Mirai just as there was with the GS. I just don't see how Toyota will leave the Crown on its own RWD platform when the sales volume is even smaller than the GS.

I have no idea if the Avalon will live to see another generation when so many of its competitors are dead or dying: Taurus, Impala, Buicks, the list goes on. Maybe Toyota has seen enough value to keep it going? I recall reading that the vehicle most commonly cross shopped with the ES is the Avalon, so it seems like Toyota could cut the Avalon and expect to keep a percent of those buyers in an ES. If they do, perhaps a version could also be platform engineered as a Crown.

@ssun30, Toyota does have E-Four AWD on the Camry Hybrid, so I assume that is scaleable to the Avalon, ES and other GA-K platform mates.

Well, understanding that this generation is the most popular Avalon ever produced is a good start when talking about it :).
Same goes for ES - it is going to be the most popular ES ever.
 

maiaramdan

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Honestly for me even I am always declaring myself as FR owner

The Avalon is way better designed and especially the overhang proportions in comparison to the ES
 

Gecko

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Well, understanding that this generation is the most popular Avalon ever produced is a good start when talking about it :).
Same goes for ES - it is going to be the most popular ES ever.

Agree - that is my point actually. With how good the new TNGA (K) products are, just not sure there is a long term case for the Crown to stay RWD and on it's own platform.
 
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you cant have it both ways... Avalon is very popular, so its design is actually a hit.
Popular? IDK, sales aren't what they used to be and you can get an Avalon for not much more than a loaded Camry V6 thanks to nice incentives...I don't think I would call it popular by any means. If the Avalon is popular, then the Dodge Charger is even more so.
 

spwolf

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Agree - that is my point actually. With how good the new TNGA (K) products are, just not sure there is a long term case for the Crown to stay RWD and on it's own platform.

who knows, maybe LF-1 would be based on GA-N? Maybe Mazda's vehicles will be on variation of the same, together with IS?
Maybe future EV would be based on GA-N as Mirai?

There are a lot of their markets where sedans still sell, like China, thus Avalon/ES being best selling generation, so I think a lot of their decisions would come from what sells in those markets.

Unfortunately for Europe, market where sedans sell a lot in Germany, and in Germany only german cars sell a lot.
For other markets, GS was quite big and expensive, and there is no replacement that could sell good there.
 

spwolf

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Popular? IDK, sales aren't what they used to be and you can get an Avalon for not much more than a loaded Camry V6 thanks to nice incentives...I don't think I would call it popular by any means. If the Avalon is popular, then the Dodge Charger is even more so.

In US, yes... sedans are down, Avalon is down too... however, Avalon has started sales in China, and it is selling like hotcakes, making it best selling Avalon... ever.

Between Avalon and ES, they will probably sell over 400,000 units.
 

maiaramdan

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Agree - that is my point actually. With how good the new TNGA (K) products are, just not sure there is a long term case for the Crown to stay RWD and on it's own platform.

We need to confirm with ourselves some facts

Fact1
In Toyota whole history if there's a FF car and Toyota wants another car with same size but FR they simply do not switch the car instead they create the newly wanted FR

Fact2
Crown is 65+ years old and it gains a lot of heritage, a heritage can destroy Toyota name altogether in every market especially the markets where the crown already selling until now

Fact3
Crown always been sold as an executive FR vehicle E/5A6/XF

Fact4
TMC already had 2 FF in this same size

Fact5
Killing the Crown is like killing the Land cruiser both have nearly 1 year difference, and killing any of them = killing TMC altogether

Fact6
Toyota products keep going into the current luxury vibes such as a good building quality and SPORT, HANDLING quality which will never be available in GA-K

Fact7
Mazda newly i6 will be based on the GA-N and it will have at least 2 Mazda products "6 & CX9" + the Crown and the rumoured Toyota with the newly Mazda i6 taking the role of the Mark-X as a true 3/C competitor

____________________

From all those facts above the GA-N is here to stay and Toyota as a brand is going directly to be a Merc, BMW & Audi tier -1 luxury competitor

This already appeared in the newly current gen Yaris, and will be shine with the 13 gen Corolla and 2nd gen Corolla Cross as a true GLA / A competitor, in fact I even start hearing some rumors that Celsior and Soarer names will float to the service again and if and only if this is true, it will mean simply that the new era Toyota will play the role of Lexus but with a lot less MSRP over 10k at least at the beginning comparing to Lexus offers in the respective category and luxury old era Toyota, with Mazda and Subaru playing the current role of let's say ford to Lincoln"the new era Toyota"

That will leads us to how important the GA-N and the Crown

So, in this case what will happen to Lexus & Suzuki, as for Lexus it will have a more exclusive and luxury new chapter and for Suzuki it will continue in its current space
 

Sulu

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With all due respect, I have to disagree with that statement. One can like (and know a lot about) cars that provide comfort and do not assault your ears or kidneys. To be knowledgeable about cars does not necessarily have to be sport-oriented. For example, I have been a car enthusiast for over half a century.....but not a speed or aggressive-driving enthusiast. 😉
Thank you for saying this, Mike. I agree with you. I am that way with hybrid-electric vehicles. I don't care that they are "slow" (my ES Hybrid is fast enough for my needs). What I like about them is how smooth they are and how unobtrusive they are.
 
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