Toyota/Lexus Midsize FR Sedan Discussion (Crown, GS) - Replaced with a CUV?

What do you think it is?

  • Lexus GS

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Toyota Crown

    Votes: 25 78.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 9.4%

  • Total voters
    32

maiaramdan

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So what I understood from above that the next ES/GS car will be a crown
To have the bloated in one spectrum and a super sport sedan in the other spectrum
But
What we know that crown is RWD sedan and the photos we saw testing before with E-Class and A6 is 100% FWD, so I lost my way
What's the right view
 

Gecko

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Toyota/Lexus focusing their midsize sedans on one platform makes a lot of sense, but unfortunately, Toyota sees that as being cost-cutting FWD instead of premium RWD.

I assume Crown will be on GA-L with LS and LC, and ES replacement will be on TNGA-K.
 

maiaramdan

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@Gecko that makes a lot of sense of all the difference in the articles
Maybe just maybe there will be a 4 doors coupe as it rumored to be on the GA-L
 

Gecko

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@Gecko that makes a lot of sense of all the difference in the articles
Maybe just maybe there will be a 4 doors coupe as it rumored to be on the GA-L
I hope they have something planned... 5LS is longer than the old LS 460L and starts at $75k. If they keep ES at ~$40k, there's just too big of a hole between the two to make much sense. As a premium brand, I would have rather seen Lexus do IS, GS/ES and LS all based on GA-L. This makes it much easier to share engineering costs and components while giving those vehicles the dynamic abilities they need to compete with the Germans, Koreans and Americans.

300hp FWD ES will not be any match for BMW 540i and others, but perhaps Lexus just doesn't care about that segment anymore and feels that FWD is "good enough." Plus, as good as the reviews of the 8th gen Camry were, most indicated that the V6 was "too much" and resulted in torque steer with front-heavy driving dynamics. I assume ES would be similar unless they fit it with an active AWD system which Toyota nor Lexus have. As I have mentioned in other threads, Dynamic Torque Control AWD is not good enough for a premium FWD-biased performance application.

I can live with that solution so long as we start getting midsize and 3 row SUVs on GA-L with 350+hp. But as far as I know, that's not on the horizon either.
 
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maiaramdan

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But if you put the words of Lexus Australian manager that they want a 4 doors coupe and a sport cross model to go for allroad and outback, this gives very much a clear view on 2 new lines we may see it in the near future
 

Gecko

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But if you put the words of Lexus Australian manager that they want a 4 doors coupe and a sport cross model to go for allroad and outback, this gives very much a clear view on 2 new lines we may see it in the near future
I think Lexus' philosophy (and rightly so) has been to scratch four door coupes and just try to make their sedans look as sleek as they can. They did this with the LS and have been pretty forthright about it in press materials. New ES looks significantly more sleek from spy photos as well.

The one thing I do see as a huge opportunity is the return of "SportCross" for IS and midsize sedan, be it ES or GS.

I can see a case for keeping the ES as a more mainstream sedan and elevating GS to be a super sleek 4 door coupe with a SportCross variant. Having that car be RWD-biased would be a good way to differentiate it from RX. A FWD ES SportCross could be too similar.
 

maiaramdan

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3 weeks not so far
They still have in there pipeline the UX, RX-L, ES, CT (international) & RX FL all in 2018
With LSF & LCF as maybe
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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This might be a good time to step back and take a holistic look at Toyota and Lexus' larger RWD sedan lines and their N, New N and TNGA-L (in Toyotaspeak) and GA-L (for Lexus) architectures.

Lexus GS (and its Toyota Aristo forebear) have always been especially closely related to Toyota's Mark X and sundry Crown models. And even as 4GS made its move from the old N to New N platform, it kept its 2850 mm (112.2") wheelbase in common with the current (old N) Mark X and Crown Athlete, Royal and Hybrid lines.

Longer Toyota and Lexus "old N"-based sedans are the current (6th-gen) Crown Majesta, with a 2925 mm (115.2") wheelbase and the outgoing Lexus 4LS (2969 mm / 116.9" SWB and 3091 mm / 121.7" LWB)

The first TNGA-L / GA-L architecture sedan is the Lexus 5LS, available exclusively with a 3125 mm (123") wheelbase. The second, presumably, will be the 15th-gen Crown Athlete / Royal / Hybrid foretold by the Crown Concept. The latter has a 2920 mm (115") wheelbase that virtually matches that of the heretofore longer and more prestigious Crown Majesta and is barely a couple of inches shy of the SWB version of the outgoing 4LS.

Longer wheelbases, however, are probably a given with the GA-L architecture. Like Nissan's aging FM platform (used on Nissan's 370Z and Infiniti's Q50/60/70 and outgoing QX50 and QX70), GA-L is a semi/quasi front-mid-engine platform. Toyota, like Nissan, fudges the definition by putting the engine's center of mass behind the front axle centerline, as opposed to true front-mid-engined cars (such as the Honda S2000 and NC and ND Mazda Miatas) where every inch of the engine block is behind the front axle centerline. Nonetheless, it is to be expected that GA-L platform vehicles will have longer wheelbases and, ideally, less front overhangs than their N-platform predecessors.

Assuming Lexus makes a 5GS and that it continues its relationship vis-a-vis the Crown15 (two huge assumptions, I know), expect a 70 mm (2.7") wheelbase stretch and a roughly 60 mm (2.3") longer body.

This is all, ultimately, an exercise in conventional wisdom-based hypotheticals. At this point, it seems that the future of Lexus' 5GS (and, I'd say, that of Toyota's JDM-only Mark X) are up in the air right now, and either could be discontinued or morph into something quite different from their current iterations.
 
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ssun30

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IS-L would be the answer. A full-size sports sedan doesn't make sense anymore. The Mark X (and the Mark II family before it) has the 'right' size for a sports sedan: bigger than the IS but smaller than the Crown/GS. ABB will keep bloating their mid-size 3/A4/C as 5/A6/E grow to full-size. Current generation GS has the best ride quality in its class because it is also the smallest. If Lexus really wants to kill it, then bloating the IS will be the logical move.
The problem is, this IS-L will be even more expensive and become another victim of ES's success. It's just too hard to avoid collateral damage when the ES is too competitive at its price range.
 

Gecko

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IS-L would be the answer. A full-size sports sedan doesn't make sense anymore. The Mark X (and the Mark II family before it) has the 'right' size for a sports sedan: bigger than the IS but smaller than the Crown/GS. ABB will keep bloating their mid-size 3/A4/C as 5/A6/E grow to full-size. Current generation GS has the best ride quality in its class because it is also the smallest. If Lexus really wants to kill it, then bloating the IS will be the logical move.
The problem is, this IS-L will be even more expensive and become another victim of ES's success. It's just too hard to avoid collateral damage when the ES is too competitive at its price range.
ES is the problem Lexus is lucky to have, sadly.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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IS-L would be the answer...The Mark X (and the Mark II family before it) has the 'right' size for a sports sedan: bigger than the IS but smaller than the Crown/GS.
They're currently all closer together in size than you'd think. The 3rd-gen Lexus IS sits on a 2800 mm (110.2") wheelbase, while the current Mark X and 4th-gen Lexus GS share a 2850 mm (112.2") wheelbase, and the outgoing Crown Royal/Athlete use a slightly longer 2860 mm (112.6") wheelbase.

In overall length, the "stepladder' is as follows:
3IS: 4,665 mm (183.7 in)
Mark X: 4,750 mm (187.0 in)
4GS: 4,850 mm (190.9 in)
Crown14: 4,885 mm (192 in)

In width (excluding outside mirrors), Mark X and Crown are a bit narrower, a natural given their JDM/Asia orientation. Here are the numbers:
Mark X: 1,795 mm (70.7 in)
Crown14: 1,800 mm (71 in)
3IS: 1,810 mm (71.3 in)
4GS: 1,840 mm (72.4 in)

Enough of the present, though. Let's shift towards the future. The transitions from N/New N to TNGA-L platforms imply longer wheelbases (given the kinda/sorta front-mid-engine placement) combined with less overhangs to minimize increases in overall length. Based on the Crown Concept dimensions, the Crown14 (N platform) to Crown15 (TNGA-L) transition implies a 2.4" longer wheelbase and a 1.3" increase in overall length.

Stepping aside for a bit, let's review what's happening with the N-to-TNGA-L transitions. Lexus LS and Toyota Crown are the first ones we know about.
(Crown Athlete and Royal, like Lexus ES, seem to be on an inviolable, clockwork-like 4-to-6-year cycle). Lexus IS is a given, it's safe to say. Lexus' 5GS and Toyota's Mark X, however, seem to be in a state of flux and indecision where Toyota's not sure how to proceed. With all due respect, Mark X is not so much a smaller GS/Crown as it is a sportier, rebodied Crown alternative with reduced overhangs that sells in a different JDM Toyota dealer network from Crown. The current-generation Mark X has been around since October 2009 (2010 model year), with facelifts for the 2013 and 2017 model years. Also notable is that the Chinese market version of Mark X, the Toyota Reiz was a flop whose production ended last week, per Wikipedia.

It's probable, as ssun30 suggests, that Lexus' 4IS will see yet another growth spurt vs its predecessor. Toyota, as stated earlier, is probably struggling with a decision on what to do with the next generations of Toyota Mark X and Lexus GS, large sedans in a crossover and SUV-mad world. Assuming they both survive, ssun30 might be on to something in suggesting that Mark X could align itself closer to IS and morph into something clearly smaller than Crown and Lexus GS. In that scenario, Toyota/Lexus TNGA-L sedan pairings would come in 3 sizes as follows:

Small: 3rd-gen Toyota Mark X / 4th-gen Lexus IS
Medium: 15th-gen Toyota Crown Athlete and Royal / 5th-gen Lexus GS
Large: 7th-gen Toyota Crown Majesta / 5th-gen Lexus LS
 
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ssun30

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Also notable is that the Chinese market version of Mark X, the Toyota Reiz was a flop whose production ended last week, per Wikipedia.
The Reiz was not a flop. In fact it was the most popular mid-size sedan in late 2000s because it has the right dimensions for chinese roads. It was the fastest and the most luxury-packed in its league. The power and sportiness are so well received that the E90 BMW 3 always lived in its shadows.

It fell out of favor because of the revised displacement tax introduced in 2012. A V6 family sedan is just too powerful here. Also as China builds more and better roads its size is considered insufficient. Finally FAW has always been upset that GAC (another TMC partner) gets the Camry.

There are rumors that FAW is planning on discontinuing both the Reiz and the Crown. Instead it will get the Avalon that is guaranteed to be a success in China.

The Japanese still cherish the Mark II legacy; it was the symbol of Japan's golden age. They don't want to let it go, but to make the business case work the only option is to make the next Mark X a rebadged IS.
 

spwolf

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The Japanese still cherish the Mark II legacy; it was the symbol of Japan's golden age. They don't want to let it go, but to make the business case work the only option is to make the next Mark X a rebadged IS.
Toyota has repeatedly stated that under TNGA they can create unique cars sharing same platform. And they have proven it with cars like Prius, Camry and C-HR having almost nothing in common - this is very different from VAG platform sharing where there is literally a part share everywhere, including interior.

So I would not worry at all about their RWD vehicles being rebadges.

I think the main problem here is that GS is not successful and that sedan market is dying. Worldwide ES would be more successful vehicle in all markets.

However for last year we have had rumors that GS is not dead at all, from japanese mags that were correct in everything else, as well as our own members here.

Personally I would like that this worldwide ES happens. It would make ES a better car, and it would increase Lexus sales.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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The Reiz was not a flop. In fact it was the most popular mid-size sedan in late 2000s because it has the right dimensions for Chinese roads. It was the fastest and the most luxury-packed in its league. The power and sportiness are so well received that the E90 BMW 3 always lived in its shadows.

It fell out of favor because of the revised displacement tax introduced in 2012. A V6 family sedan is just too powerful here. Also as China builds more and better roads its size is considered insufficient. Finally FAW has always been upset that GAC (another TMC partner) gets the Camry.

There are rumors that FAW is planning on discontinuing both the Reiz and the Crown. Instead it will get the Avalon that is guaranteed to be a success in China...
Thanks for setting me straight. I based my comment on a section near the end of the Toyota Mark X article on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mark_X
that reads:

End Of Production In China
Due to the poor sales result in China, in Sept 27th, 2017. Tianjin FAW Toyota ended up the production of Mark X(Reiz) in China. It was totally produced 528188 Mark X's until now.
Obviously, your statement is better informed and more nuanced.
 

Carmaker1

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The Reiz was not a flop. In fact it was the most popular mid-size sedan in late 2000s because it has the right dimensions for chinese roads. It was the fastest and the most luxury-packed in its league. The power and sportiness are so well received that the E90 BMW 3 always lived in its shadows.

It fell out of favor because of the revised displacement tax introduced in 2012. A V6 family sedan is just too powerful here. Also as China builds more and better roads its size is considered insufficient. Finally FAW has always been upset that GAC (another TMC partner) gets the Camry.

There are rumors that FAW is planning on discontinuing both the Reiz and the Crown. Instead it will get the Avalon that is guaranteed to be a success in China.

The Japanese still cherish the Mark II legacy; it was the symbol of Japan's golden age. They don't want to let it go, but to make the business case work the only option is to make the next Mark X a rebadged IS.
The Mark X is going FWD, moving to utilize TNGA-K. The XV70 Camry debuted that application of TNGA-K. I don't know if Toyota is developing a larger FWD application above TNGA-K, but some tidbits point towards the Mark X no longer being RWD.
 

Carmaker1

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They're currently all closer together in size than you'd think. The 3rd-gen Lexus IS sits on a 2800 mm (110.2") wheelbase, while the current Mark X and 4th-gen Lexus GS share a 2850 mm (112.2") wheelbase, and the outgoing Crown Royal/Athlete use a slightly longer 2860 mm (112.6") wheelbase.

In overall length, the "stepladder' is as follows:
3IS: 4,665 mm (183.7 in)
Mark X: 4,750 mm (187.0 in)
4GS: 4,850 mm (190.9 in)
Crown14: 4,885 mm (192 in)

In width (excluding outside mirrors), Mark X and Crown are a bit narrower, a natural given their JDM/Asia orientation. Here are the numbers:
Mark X: 1,795 mm (70.7 in)
Crown14: 1,800 mm (71 in)
3IS: 1,810 mm (71.3 in)
4GS: 1,840 mm (72.4 in)

Enough of the present, though. Let's shift towards the future. The transitions from N/New N to TNGA-L platforms imply longer wheelbases (given the kinda/sorta front-mid-engine placement) combined with less overhangs to minimize increases in overall length. Based on the Crown Concept dimensions, the Crown14 (N platform) to Crown15 (TNGA-L) transition implies a 2.4" longer wheelbase and a 1.3" increase in overall length.

Stepping aside for a bit, let's review what's happening with the N-to-TNGA-L transitions. Lexus LS and Toyota Crown are the first ones we know about.
(Crown Athlete and Royal, like Lexus ES, seem to be on an inviolable, clockwork-like 4-to-6-year cycle). Lexus IS is a given, it's safe to say. Lexus' 5GS and Toyota's Mark X, however, seem to be in a state of flux and indecision where Toyota's not sure how to proceed. With all due respect, Mark X is not so much a smaller GS/Crown as it is a sportier, rebodied Crown alternative with reduced overhangs that sells in a different JDM Toyota dealer network from Crown. The current-generation Mark X has been around since October 2009 (2010 model year), with facelifts for the 2013 and 2017 model years. Also notable is that the Chinese market version of Mark X, the Toyota Reiz was a flop whose production ended last week, per Wikipedia.

It's probable, as ssun30 suggests, that Lexus' 4IS will see yet another growth spurt vs its predecessor. Toyota, as stated earlier, is probably struggling with a decision on what to do with the next generations of Toyota Mark X and Lexus GS, large sedans in a crossover and SUV-mad world. Assuming they both survive, ssun30 might be on to something in suggesting that Mark X could align itself closer to IS and morph into something clearly smaller than Crown and Lexus GS. In that scenario, Toyota/Lexus TNGA-L sedan pairings would come in 3 sizes as follows:

Small: 3rd-gen Toyota Mark X / 4th-gen Lexus IS
Medium: 15th-gen Toyota Crown Athlete and Royal / 5th-gen Lexus GS
Large: 7th-gen Toyota Crown Majesta / 5th-gen Lexus LS
Well, the Mark X is reportedly going FWD circa 2020.
 

ssun30

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The Mark X is going FWD, moving to utilize TNGA-K.
Wow, that will be turn down a lot of Mark X loyalists, might as well axe that vehicle. Mark X lives because of the enthusiasts and going FWD is suicidal.

Also from what you said the biggest TNGA-K vehicle will be the ES with no plans for new Avalon? (makes sense since the Highlander will just eat it for breakfast)
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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The Mark X is going FWD, moving to utilize TNGA-K. The XV70 Camry debuted that application of TNGA-K. I don't know if Toyota is developing a larger FWD application above TNGA-K, but some tidbits point towards the Mark X no longer being RWD.
Camry was the shortest-wheelbase version of the old, pre-TNGA K platform, with the current Avalon/Lexus ES, Highlander/Lexus RX and Sienna all built on stretched-wheelbase versions. I think it's safe to say the same will hold true as these models see new generations moving to the TNGA-K architecture.

If these rumors turn out to be true, then it appears that the 3rd-gen Mark X will become a JDM version of the upcoming 5th-gen Avalon.

Wow, that will be turn down a lot of Mark X loyalists, might as well axe that vehicle. Mark X lives because of the enthusiasts and going FWD is suicidal...
I totally agree. I'm a huge fan of the ultra-rare Mark X GRMN that was equipped with the 6-speed manual transmission and proper limited-slip differential I wish my IS 350 F Sport came with. The fact that Mark X is the only RWD Toyota sedan to benefit from the recent JDM GR Sport initiative (
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/18651904/ ) gives me some hope that this rumor will turn out to be false.

Then again, rumors have suggested that the upcoming 7ES Lexus might take more of an enthusiast-friendly bent (including AWD) to the point of possibly replacing GS, so maybe a similar FWD-based, TNGA-K Mark X might not be that horrific...
 
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mikeavelli

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The problem is buyers don't really know or care, as evidenced by BMW.
https://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/23/the-craziest-damn-thing-youll-hear-today-80-of-bmw-1-series-o/

You can see AMG watering down with their non AMG engines, BMW going FWD, no one cares Audi is FWD based. Sales are sales. Even look at Infiniti who tried to offer RWD cars/SUVs and now their best selling vehicles are FWD and the SUVs are going to FWD. In addition FWD cars have gotten better over time.

Is it for me or many of us? No. That said we are the minority here. The majority look at the badge first.
 
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