Third Generation Toyota Tundra Master Thread

ssun30

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I thought 2021 is worth the good wait for the LC300. But now delayed till 2023? I am genuinely out of words.

Carmaker1 made a great comment about the fact that Land Cruisers don't get their reliability and durability for being old and outdated. Every generation of Land Cruiser were launched with the best technology for their time and they were reliable since Day 1. Think about 2007, when the LC200 was like a futuristic starship with A-TRAC, CRAWL control, adjustable ride height, and KDSS that made offroad driving like a walk in the park. It took competitors almost a decade to have comparable tech.
 
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Carmaker1

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Lots of info here. So, just for clarification; when you say "this is definitely true", are you referring the the fact that the Tundra redesign will be a 2022 MY? Or about the 3.5L powertrain? Any new news on powertrains? V8s?
Yes, MY 2022 is what I mean. My Texas sources have not elaborated on other petrol powertrains. I generally asked about model timing and other information, because I keep burning a lot of bridges by parroting other people's information whispered to me.
 

Carmaker1

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I thought 2021 is worth the good wait for the LC300. But now delayed till 2023? I am genuinely out of words.

Carmaker1 made a great comment about the fact that Land Cruisers don't get their reliability and durability for being old and outdated. Every generation of Land Cruiser were launched with the best technology for their time and they were reliable since Day 1. Think about 2007, when the LC200 was like a futuristic starship with A-TRAC, CRAWL control, adjustable ride height, and KDSS that made offroad driving like a walk in the park. It took competitors almost a decade to have comparable tech.
I know right? It's ridiculous. Thank you for also elaborating on that ssun30! I do see that excuse/insult used against Toyota, as if they just wait to do everything or "copy", but they've introduced many innovations, that the competition definitely benchmarked such as the above.

The only way that the Land Cruiser gets launched in 2021 is if Toyota is confident with launching a differing variation of TNGA-F within the same 3 month period as the next Tundra.

Studying the new LX 600 trademark, that new LX is definitely a vehicle 24 to 30 months out. Lately I have noticed that is how Toyota files their trademarks for new models. It mirrors what I said unfortunately. Surely Toyota never intended for the late 2015 updates of the 200 Series SUVs to be lasting beyond January 2020, but here we are.
 
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Carmaker1

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While there are definitely multiple issues with the new LS, keeping the old model around for over a decade and inflating expectations to astronomic proportions really hurt any positive momentum. There was no way the new model was going to be able to survive the ridiculous buildup.
Although I never mention LS (LOL), I think that's what my biggest frustrations come from (plus aging LX and GS), having been gassed up by clueless Lexus UK personnel pre-2017. The new XF50 I imagine was designed to cost less to manufacture and make bigger profits at less volume, in a shorter time frame. Doesn't mean that it's a cheap car but the methods being used by Lexus to market and sell it, highlight a lot of cynical decision making to me.

One single wheelbase, no semi a-la-carte configuring, not as many innovations as seen with XF40, XF30, and XF10/11. The white space LS 500 TT V6, which bests competitors' entry level 6-cylinders, but nothing available above it (750i and S550/S560 sell better than S450/740i).

Reminds me too much of how the next XJ at Jaguar, has been in such development hell limbo for nearly a decade and much of the reason why I moved on and focused on my PhD instead. I worked on that car, during my last 2 years.
 
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F1 Silver Arrows

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This is all depressing news. :/ I am extremely busy right now and for the next while so I'll make one of my signature rant posts later on, but like we're not even getting the new Yaris. It's just ridiculous. We have no more GS, they're messing up the RWD Lexus portfolio as well, they're delaying the f*ck out of the BOF platforms (like for god's sake, the BOF platforms date back to the BUSH ADMINISTRATION). The only car that I am excited for is the new Sienna and the beast of a car which is the Toyota Supra. Hopefully the GRMN arrives at the projected 2021 date.

Seems like for the foreseeable future the only TMC products that I would seriously consider getting are only the Toyota Supra (or GRMN), the new Sienna, the Mirai though wouldn't mind it being electric, or the Lexus GS F, LC and LS. F*ck me, I even like the Corollas too.

But everything else in both of their product lines either has a major flaw (or that it is just lacking overall), or the fact which they're older than a dinosaur fossil. That's dangerously low in terms of preferences. And I'm not the only one who has this sentiment. They're slacking and they know it, but they make around 25 billion dollars in profit every year. They're obviously chasing the money, and you know what? That's fine. But I don't want them b*tching about how nobody is really giving two f*cks about them.

While I still love TMC, the feeling of being dedicated to them as a fan and as a customer has just faded away now. I'm only a hardcore fan of Toyota/Lexus only for racing. It's a shame to say this really.
 
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Carmaker1

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Unfortunately
Toyota management need to be liberated from their own fear
I don't know if I would call it fear, but someone other than the Toyota scion himself is instrumental in this problem. He has the final say, but there are other people working under him. Maybe if the Japanese domestic market and that of Europe as well too?

I really don't want to blame him but the commentary on how he felt about certain models says a lot. I have to think of it as if I was running a car company. As a businessman I could decide that I would invest in passionate sporty vehicles I would personally enjoy as a racer and then when it comes to bread and butter products maybe I'll be picky in terms of highest profit and lowest investment? That is probably the real story.

Sedans are approached as for chauffeuring or basic, quality transport A-to-B transport. Big trucks are uncompetitive (Tundra) or intimidating to redesign from scratch and high investment (4Runner/Taco/LCs).

Therefore the easiest (GA-C/K) to rollout or most personally desirable (keep RC, LC as halo) retain attention. Things that don't personally interest me as CEO, suffer as much as possible (GS, IS), or get moderate attention to save face (LS).

Too much money is made for things to be running so behind in some areas.
 

Levi

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The best way to make money is the make one thing that everyone person wants /and needs. It is no easy (if not impossible) task. Talking about BOV suvs, there are way too many of them in the line up that do not differentiate enough. Fortuner, 4 Runner, Prado and GX, are way too similar. One well made one for every region is enough. It is clear Toyota has understood that, now we the Camry and Corolla are (again?) global cars. They are not bad, but they could be better.

Today there are no cheap cars (except Dacia and some Thailand/Brazil models to name only these countries). Every car now has heated/cooled seats, phone mirroring, brake assist etc.. True "premium" materials will never be cheap, but the way around now is cheapening what is invisible. As every brand can apply this strategy the only factor left is brand identity and brand cachet. Companies are huge machines, so even when something is wrong, they go on for some years, it depends on the internal issue and how it is handled. Fiat should have been dead long ago, it is still here, but for how long?

Many here dislike the latest strategic decision and execution at TMC, but many "fans" of other brands also have negative views about their liked brands. It is just the way it works unfortunately.
 
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Well I have a few thoughts about this. First of all yes it is disappointing that this has been put off for another year. Part of me thinks that manufacturers don’t care when they release models because they’re going to sell anyway. Sure some Tundra owners might spring for a competitors 1/2 ton in the next year or two but when the new Tundra does go on sale, sales will increase anyway. Another part of me wonders why it’s delayed in the first place, they have all these engineering teams for each vehicle so to say they’re putting a focus on this vehicle or that vehicle over another one really isn’t an excuse. Mazda is another brand I like, in part because of their racing teams (similar to F1 Silver Arrows reasoning with Toyota) but they’re all screwed up with model releases too. Had a 17.5 model year Mazda6 and then released the 19 MY in April of 19, promised a diesel engine that took over 5 years to go on sale over their original plan, etc etc. It’s unfortunate but I guess as a customer/consumer we just have to deal with it. Just looking forward to seeing what they bring to market.
 
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I REALLY didn't want to comment on this, but yes this is definitely true (found out in the summer) and definitely not a 2021 model anymore. The August 2020 date was once accurate indeed (never 2016-19) but things do change due to unforeseen circumstances while in development or due to market forces.

The biggest problem I've always had with this kind of delay happening-which is not surprising- is the MASSIVE domino effect it has on other vehicles utilising TNGA-F.
I am very confident at this point that between the midsize suvs and the IMV/Tacoma pick up redesigns, it is up to Toyota which they want to be launched first.

But definitely set in stone for 2021 is the 2022 Tundra being released around October 2021. Studying the G A-L rollout in terms of production dates between March 2017 for the LC 500 and December 2017 for the LS, such spacing is very likely between the next Tundra and Land Cruiser 300.

An August 2021 start of production date for the next Tundra would mean that a 2023 Land Cruiser and 2023 LX would be very, very likely and is probably fact (barring random ass changes) and not enter production until 8-10 months minimum after the Tundra. A 2023 Sequoia is a given, during 2022 as well, after those 3.

Well...since you now have 2022 so BUSY (including non-GA-F vehicles), this means everything else GA-F must be done in the 2023 calendar year and then if that year gets clogged with 3 BOF redesigns, what the heck happens then to the 3 remaining archaic BOF vehicles?

Pushed into the year 2024 of course. And I don't mean model years, I mean CY 2024, 5 YEARS from now!

The midsize suvs are not coming until 2023 as 2024 models (4R/PR/GX) or that will be swapped out with Taco/Fort/Hilux (MY 2025) for 2024 as MY 2025s. 2021-22 is the all jumbo Yotas. Nada for MY 2021 I can expect.

Many people may not agree with me but I am certain that 5-6 years ago, Toyota was in the early stages of working on a next generation Land Cruiser and such a vehicle would have arrived by now or next year. Both Tundra and Land Cruiser have their own delays, which in regard to the former, could have been avoided by getting it into the development sooner than they did in 2015.

There's been an annoyingly cynical approach to the existing product line which don't receive the necessary major updates needed to tide them along as stop-gaps or keep them fresh and competitive in the marketplace.

What does annoy me even more, is when constructive criticism is made (via feasible suggestions), some apologists (not necessarily on LE) tend to play Devil's advocate and gaslight or shut down the valid concerns. (ie "if it ain't broke don't fix it..."; "happy, 'cuz don't want my xxx to become dated"; "you should be happy that"...)

I know that this company can and will deliver excellent product that customers can continue to rely on, but I can see as an outsider with an ear on the inside at times, that someone greenlighted a program too late (*coughs* new Tundra) and when they do run into delays it becomes a clusterf*ck, because you're replacing relics or near-relics.

The idea that Toyota only maintains reliability somehow by keeping things forever (and therefore not make need changes is a myth, chosen to be bandied about by the ignorant or wilfully obtuse.)

Japanese being leaders in tech and mechanical engineering for durability has proven that wrong when they were able to launch new products efficiently in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s, while making revolutionary products and sticking to a timely model cadence. The Tundra is going to be 15 years old by the time it is redesigned. Same for the LX and LC, ditto for the Sequoia as well.

I do not recall seeing these problems with the previous generations of these models nor their little brothers or junior Lexus cousins of yore. 7-9 years at most or even less. Someone got cocky with their customer base and then when they got to doing stuff with big ideas on top of that, all of a sudden they don't have enough time to fall back on (*coughs* Tundra). Particularly with a revolutionary hybrid needing finessing.

Time doesn't wait for anyone, as seen with the RC that should've been here in the late 90s or early-mid 2000s. Not 10-15 years later, when coupes are sinking and BMW had 4 generations of compact coupes (E30 3-Series Coupe of 1982 was a 2 door sedan essentially, unlike E36 3-C of 1992+ and E46-C 1999+) to secure their place amongst the nouveau riche, yuppies, and heirs of the world.

It would be nothing short of a miracle for Toyota to redesign 4 to 5 vehicles to GA-F per 9-12 months. But nobody has managed to do that in the industry, so things are going to be stretched out as I thought. Why do I say that? Study the rollouts of TNGA-C from 2015-Present, GA-L & TNGA-K 2017-present, and TNGA-N 2018 to present.

All of these new applications for Toyota New Global architecture have understandably not happened in one fell swoop. They are staggered out by many months, if and when differing variations (M-S Camry-Jun 2017 vs F-S Avalon-Q2 2018 vs Compact CUV RAV4-Nov 2018 vs larger Highlander - Nov 19) and that concerns me.

I think the best thing that Toyota could do is to launch 2-3 GA-F models within 24 months, starting in 2021 for 2022 to hurry replacements, but that won't happen judging by how things went in 2006 and 2007. A Tundra by itself in 2021, then 3 new big SUVs in 2022 is most likely.
Oh wow. Toyota taking forever to redesign their body and frame products. I can’t wait any longer for next gen tundra. I was hoping it will be out next year. I simply hope that it’s class leading when it comes out.
 

Carmaker1

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What I believe is definite for Toyota USA/global utilities:

2020-nothing happens for MY 2021 with BOF vehicles. At best, 2021 GX corrects a few 2020 issues, as does Prado. 4Runner mostly unchanged.

2021 - A redesigned 2022 Tundra and 2022 Land Cruiser arrive in the second half. These vehicles are already testing in mule form. 2022 4Runner is unchanged and 2022 Tacoma gets minor updates.

New crossovers introduced: shared 2022 ******* ***** and TNGA-K 2022 Venza (definite)
2022 RAV4 MMC
2022 C-HR redesign

2022 - Redesigned GA-F Sequoia is a definite.
Possible redesign of Prado (very likely). New 2023 4Runner.
2023 Highlander MMC

2023 - Redesigned 2024 Tacoma, global Hilux and IMV Fortuner (not definite)
 
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What I believe is definite for Toyota USA/global utilities:

2020-nothing happens for MY 2021 with BOF vehicles. At best, 2021 GX corrects a few 2020 issues, as does Prado. 4Runner mostly unchanged.

2021 - A redesigned 2022 Tundra and 2022 Land Cruiser arrive in the second half. These vehicles are already testing in mule form. 2022 4Runner is unchanged and 2022 Tacoma gets minor updates.

New crossovers introduced: shared 2022 ******* ***** and TNGA-K 2022 Venza (definite)
2022 RAV4 MMC
2022 C-HR redesign

2022 - Redesigned GA-F Sequoia is a definite.
Possible redesign of Prado (very likely). New 2023 4Runner.
2023 Highlander MMC

2023 - Redesigned 2024 Tacoma, global Hilux and IMV Fortuner (not definite)
What is MMC?
 

ssun30

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2021 LC300 and 2022 LCP is a much more acceptable timeline than 2023 and 2024. This would mean they will pull all BoF products out of ChDM for only 12-18 months (early 2021 to mid 2022). I really wish this was the case.
 
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