Third Generation Toyota Tundra Master Thread

LexsCTJill

Follower
Messages
282
Reaction score
194
I think this is what youre getting caught up on, the rumor states the TT V6 hybrid will sit above the TT V6 and won't be an alternative to anything
Caught up on what? I just think doubt there will be tubro....you are free to believe what you want

👋 👋👋......🖐
 

suxeL

Follower
Messages
440
Reaction score
344
I don’t think I ever said it was a downgrade. I just don’t believe there will be a lot of people willing to buy a Tundra V6TThybrid for a premium over a V6TT. Just does not seem likely. Every new Toyota Hybrid is an alternative to the gas counterpart
Can you use that same design ethos for pickup truck buyers though? If they intend to offer a similar powertrain setup that offers identical performance for more money I`d have to agree not many takers, especially for a Non Big three truck. However the project leaks so far seem to indicate the tt hybrid setup will offer alot more power, this changes the equation completely.

The litmus test on this is coming as soon as June 25th seeing how Fords project is launching ahead of toyotas we shall see how folks react to hybrids tt setups in trucks quite soon. Would page @Carmaker1 but I assume NDAs so we shall wait patiently till launch
 

Joaquin Ruhi

Expert
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
1,532
Reaction score
2,428
The litmus test on this is coming as soon as June 25th seeing how Fords project is launching ahead of toyotas we shall see how folks react to hybrids tt setups in trucks quite soon. Would page @Carmaker1 but I assume NDAs so we shall wait patiently till launch
I was just about to say this. The 14th-gen Ford F-150 being revealed on June 25th will eventually offer both hybrid and battery-electric variants. It'll be interesting to see what they do and don't reveal about that next week.
 

LexsCTJill

Follower
Messages
282
Reaction score
194
Can you use that same design ethos for pickup truck buyers though? If they intend to offer a similar powertrain setup that offers identical performance for more money I`d have to agree not many takers, especially for a Non Big three truck. However the project leaks so far seem to indicate the tt hybrid setup will offer alot more power, this changes the equation completely.

The litmus test on this is coming as soon as June 25th seeing how Fords project is launching ahead of toyotas we shall see how folks react to hybrids tt setups in trucks quite soon. Would page @Carmaker1 but I assume NDAs so we shall wait patiently till launch
I could see a plug in hybrid. Apparently Ford is gonna offer it.
 

suxeL

Follower
Messages
440
Reaction score
344
I was just about to say this. The 14th-gen Ford F-150 being revealed on June 25th will eventually offer both hybrid and battery-electric variants. It'll be interesting to see what they do and don't reveal about that next week.
That rollout is going to set the stage for the next generation half ton playing field. V8s are on the way out, and hybrids are the transition to BEV.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

Expert
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
1,532
Reaction score
2,428
I could see a plug in hybrid. Apparently Ford is gonna offer it.
An interesting question. I know that Ford and Lincoln offer plug-in hybrid versions of some of their crossovers, but I'm under the impression that F-150 Hybrid will be non-plug. Who knows, though? Ford might surprise us and make it a plug-in hybrid. We should know on June 25th.
 

Sulu

Follower
Messages
289
Reaction score
462
He did say it will have more torque than the 3UR-FZE (3UR-FE with TRD supercharger) which makes 750N.m/550lb.ft. It's trivially easy for a P2 hybrid to do that since torque of ICE and MG1 are additive unlike in PS hybrid. Here is a list of possible output from this hybrid system using different combinations (these are upper limit estimations, real numbers should be smaller due to a variety of factors):
The torques of the traction motor and the gasoline engine are additive in all parallel hybrids, including the power-split series-parallel hybrids that Toyota/Lexus use. I can feel it in my ES Hybrid.

When I am in EV mode (engine off), and deliberately maintain it in EV mode by accelerating slowly, I can feel the definite kick provided by the additional engine torque if I floor the throttle and the vehicle switches to parallel-hybrid mode (engine on, adding torque to the traction motor). If I accelerate too quickly away from a traffic light while in EV mode, the vehicle switches to parallel mode instantly, with both the traction motor and the engine together driving the vehicle, so of course I do not feel the added torque of the engine.

Otherwise, the switch between driving modes in Toyota's power-split series-parallel hybrids is so smooth that, without deliberately trying to feel it (and without the driving mode graphics on), it is almost impossible to sense the changes.
 

Sulu

Follower
Messages
289
Reaction score
462
The torques of the traction motor and the gasoline engine are additive in all parallel hybrids, including the power-split series-parallel hybrids that Toyota/Lexus use. I can feel it in my ES Hybrid.

When I am in EV mode (engine off), and deliberately maintain it in EV mode by accelerating slowly, I can feel the definite kick provided by the additional engine torque if I floor the throttle and the vehicle switches to parallel-hybrid mode (engine on, adding torque to the traction motor). If I accelerate too quickly away from a traffic light while in EV mode, the vehicle switches to parallel mode instantly, with both the traction motor and the engine together driving the vehicle, so of course I do not feel the added torque of the engine.

Otherwise, the switch between driving modes in Toyota's power-split series-parallel hybrids is so smooth that, without deliberately trying to feel it (and without the driving mode graphics on), it is almost impossible to sense the changes.
To add to what I said above, let me explain the change from series-hybrid mode (where the engine is on but the vehicle is driven solely by the traction motor, with all of the torque produced by the engine used to drive the generator and no torque going to drive the vehicle) to parallel-hybrid mode (where engine torque adds to the torque of the traction motor).

When this switch happens, the power-split device starts sharing torque between the generator and to drive the vehicle; as more torque is demanded to aid the traction motor, less torque is fed to the generator and more torque is made available to aid the traction motor. The switch from series-hybrid mode to parallel-hybrid mode is seamless -- added torque flows smoothly -- and the driver cannot feel it since the engine has been running all the time, at the same, constant RPM.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,786
Reaction score
4,069
Since torque and power in a P2 parallel hybrid system are additive, it's quite easy to estimate the whole torque/power curve using existing data provided by Toyota. I'm comparing it to the 5.7L NA V8, 3.5L TT V6, and a detuned 4.0L TT V8 which is an exact 2:1 scaled-up 8AR-FTS. The electric motor is assumed to be 1NM (59kW/141N.m) and the battery is assumed to output at least 59kW. The electric motor is coupled to the transmission without any reduction. I've converted units since most readers here are from the U.S.

All three new options offer massive torque and power gains over the 5.7L at any rpm. In fact even scaling up the NA V8 to 6.0L and give it D-4S it will still be beaten by a wide margin. On the hybrid 550lb.ft is available from 1600rpm to 4000rpm. It's easy to see the motor picks up the slack at the low end while the turbo is still spooling and keeps the advantage until the high end. Peak power is 494hp at 6000rpm which is about the same as 3UR-FZE.
4128

On average the V35A-FTS has 15% more torque than the 3UR-FE throughout the entire rpm range, the '4.0 TTV8' has 33% more while the hybrid has 41% more. And I'm assuming the smallest motor they could possibly use (from the Yaris Hybrid).
4129

It's incredible frustrating Lexus didn't even try to get this technology into an IS-F or GS-F. They had a once-in-a-decade chance to establish F as an 'eco-conscious performance brand' but they just don't care about it anymore. And now its competitors are going to steal that idea with PHEV AMGs. Lexus should have had this hybrid system ready in 2018 for their flagship LS.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,786
Reaction score
4,069
An interesting question. I know that Ford and Lincoln offer plug-in hybrid versions of some of their crossovers, but I'm under the impression that F-150 Hybrid will be non-plug. Who knows, though? Ford might surprise us and make it a plug-in hybrid. We should know on June 25th.
With current technology it's not feasible to make a full plug-in hybrid truck. The battery needs a large capacity and C-rate to make the truck drivable. But it adds so much weight the truck might as well be full BEV. These 'plug-in trucks' would be more like BMW PHVs which have very limited power and top speed in EV mode, and will require a lot of ICE assist in real world driving.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,786
Reaction score
4,069
The torques of the traction motor and the gasoline engine are additive in all parallel hybrids, including the power-split series-parallel hybrids that Toyota/Lexus use. I can feel it in my ES Hybrid.
By additive I meant direct addition: the torque at the output axis equals torque of ICE plus torque of MG. If an engine makes 300N.m and motor makes 100N.m, in a P1 or P2 parallel hybrid the torque going into the transmission is 400N.m. What you are actually feeling is additive power which is true for any hybrid system: combined power is always approximately ICE power plus battery power.

Of course in PS hybrids ICE and MG2's torque add onto each-other, but they are almost never direct addition (like 300+100=400). Instead they follow the lever diagram of the planetary gear set. And ICE rpm, MG1 rpm, and MG2 rpm all need to be factored into the calculation. This makes it almost impossible to give a definitive answer to 'how much torque does the whole hybrid system make' at every instant, while in parallel hybrid it's simple addition.

There is also no switching of 'modes' in PSD. The system is always a blend of parallel operation and serial operation, which follows the lever diagram. There will always be a finite amount of power transferred both mechanically and electrically to the wheels. In a strictly serial hybrid, all power is transferred electrically from ICE to wheels; in a strictly parallel hybrid, all power is transferred mechanically from ICE to wheels. The only mode-switching system is the Honda i-MMD.

Mode-switching in a PSD requires a clutch to disengage MG1. The philosophy of THS actually avoids clutch in the PSD for smoothness and reliability.
 
Last edited:
Messages
51
Reaction score
62
Wow that video really got this thread fired up! The knowledge of folks on powertrains and hybrid systems in this group is impressive. My two cents on it is that Toyota will offer some new and impressive powertrains that will push boundaries and may be considered complex. I do think not having a V8 is possible and while it may seem strange to not offer I’m sure it’s something the sales team has looked at closely and they aren’t worried about losing sales. Look at Ford, they brought out a twin turbo’d v6 in 2011 and people’s minds blew up. Then in 2015 they brought out 2 more twin turbo’d v6 engines. Now more than 75% of F150 sales are Ecoboosts. People will get over it. Even Chevy, who still uses the fossil of a 5.3 has a turbo charged 4 cylinder in their half ton trucks. Not sure the sales number but I know they sell plenty of them. Looking forward to the new Tundra as we get closer to a debut, probably in about 8 months.
 

Sulu

Follower
Messages
289
Reaction score
462
There is also no switching of 'modes' in PSD. The system is always a blend of parallel operation and serial operation, which follows the lever diagram. There will always be a finite amount of power transferred both mechanically and electrically to the wheels. In a strictly serial hybrid, all power is transferred electrically from ICE to wheels; in a strictly parallel hybrid, all power is transferred mechanically from ICE to wheels. The only mode-switching system is the Honda i-MMD.

Mode-switching in a PSD requires a clutch to disengage MG1. The philosophy of THS actually avoids clutch in the PSD for smoothness and reliability.
That may be so (I understand how the Toyota Hybrid System works, and I have been driving one for 6 years now), but for all practical purposes, there are EV, parallel-hybrid and serial-hybrid behaviours in the THS that match the 3 driving modes, regardless of how it may be defined in technical specifications or marketing material.

If, however, you wish to split hairs, that is not worth arguing over.
 

supra93

Admirer
Messages
689
Reaction score
970
I saw this posted on Supraforums.

BTW, I saw a video today that indicates the 2022 (IIRC) Lexus LX 570 and Toyota Land Cruiser will have the 3.5L TT V6, along with hybrid power. Mind you, without hybridization, the motor already makes 415 hp and 442 lb-ft in the LS 500. The next Tundra is also suppose to get a version of this set-up. The speaker in the video conservatively estimated 500 hp and 500 lb-ft, with the Land Cruiser/LX combo and the Tundra all slated to be significantly lighter than their current iterations (the Tundra is reported to get mid-30 MPG along with more power and lighter weight).

I mention all this because of Boost Wang's earlier post about this motor in a modified LC 500 chassis. Now, this motor in the LS 500 is next level in every respect, so I find it amazing Toyota did not use the MKV Supra as another company vehicle to amortize the cost of this motor across the upper end of its model ranges. This is what it did with the 2JZ-GTE in the Supra, Aristo and the Chaser, I believe. Rumors say there will be an all-Toyota A100 Supra (there's already a thread on this) so maybe there's still hope though I, personally, don't have any.


Ken.
 

Ian Schmidt

Expert
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
1,904
Reaction score
3,294
We know now that there was a fair amount of invisible-to-us rot inside Toyota over the last decade+ that Akio had to fix. It's likely that the only way he could get an A90 was by co-development, and it's also likely given his interest in motorsports that they're using A90 to collect data for future 100% Toyota cars once the bean counting has died down a bit.

Wild guess: maybe the rumored major changes delaying the LC F are because of coordinating it with A100 development?

Regardless, I'd love to see a hybridized V35a in the LS refresh and a bunch of other cars. It's practically the poster child engine for hybridization, given it's 100% computer-controlled and has a responsiveness hole off the line where electric motors are at their best.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
2,792
Reaction score
2,892
Ford's hybrid system is too weak for its size. 35kW and 1.5kWh just isn't enough. I hope Tundra's hybrid system is properly sized.
If Toyota did this, i am very confident it would be called death of the brand and people would be asking if they are pulling out of USA.

I am only kind of joking.
 
Top