ssun30

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If the platform and hardware are promising, hopefully over time it can get even better.
The problem is the platform and hardware are not promising...giving it 70kW extra power isn't going to solve its terrible range, efficiency and charging speed.

And we now see they achieve such acceleration performance not by superior efficiency, but by using a super short reduction ratio (13.786). The 1XM motor unit is maxed at 166km/h and revving at almost 10000rpm at 100km/h and 12000rpm at 120km/h. Most competitors are in the 8-11 range for better efficiency. It's very rare for Toyota to go for an acceleration optimized gear ratio than efficiency optimized ratio. I think that design decision is to compensate for their very conservative battery size and discharge rate.
 

Will1991

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Full specs are out from Lexus China.

Charging speed is restricted to 100kW even with the Panasonic battery. Charging from 30-80% takes 28 min so the average charging rate is only 70kW to get 50% range. For reference most of its competitors average 100-125kW over a wider SOC range (most manufacturers use 20-80% to rate charge speed). And I thought they say 11kW AC charging will be standard for all 2023 EVs? It's still rated at just 7kW for ChDM version.


I don’t have any words I want to write in a public forum to express how deeply saddened I’m with this reality…

Toyota dropped the ball on BEV’s we all know, but doing this to Lexus… First the UX300e, now the RZ…

They’re really pushing to see how far they can take us.
 

CRSKTN

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giving it 70kW extra power isn't going to solve its terrible range, efficiency and charging speed
I was not saying that.

Im saying the performance of these systems can be impacted through better software pushed out in the future, no? Or drop in controller improvements?

Or are you convinced the hardware itself isnt capable? Is the reduction ratio entirely hardware defined?
 
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Will1991

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I was not saying that.

Im saying the performance of these systems can be impacted through better software pushed out in the future, no? Or drop in controller improvements?

Or are you convinced the hardware itself isnt capable? Is the reduction ratio entirely hardware defined?

Small adjustments can be made, but it won’t solve it…

If they unlock a faster charging speed, they won’t meet their longevity targets.

If they unlock more power from the batteries (higher C rate), they won’t meet their longevity targets.

As for the reduction, that’s a mechanical part of the powertrain.

If you go for an higher reduction, the car will get more wheel torque with a better acceleration and lower top speed.

If you go for a lower reduction, the car will get less wheel torque making accelerate slower but can have a higher top speed.
In this situation with an higher C rate you can improve the acceleration but then they won’t meet their longevity goals.

The efficiency part varies with the engine, but given it’s technology it won’t be happy at higher speeds, it may be the most efficient at around 80~90km/h.
 
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Sulu

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Small adjustments can be made, but it won’t solve it…

If they unlock a faster charging speed, they won’t meet their longevity targets.

If they unlock more power from the batteries (higher C rate), they won’t meet their longevity targets.

As for the reduction, that’s a mechanical part of the powertrain.

If you go for an higher reduction, the car will get more wheel torque with a better acceleration and lower top speed.

If you go for a lower reduction, the car will get less wheel torque making accelerate slower but can have a higher top speed.
In this situation with an higher C rate you can improve the acceleration but then they won’t meet their longevity goals.

The efficiency part varies with the engine, but given it’s technology it won’t be happy at higher speeds, it may be the most efficient at around 80~90km/h.
What seems to be holding back Toyota's EVs is the battery longevity target. But unlike the motor reduction gearing, which are hard and mechanical (and difficult to change), the longevity targets are soft and implemented in software so they can be easily changed. It would involve a trade-off, reducing longevity of the battery for an improvement in charging and discharging speed, and increasingly power availability the traction battery, many of the criticisms of the bZ4X.

Toyota being Toyota and its obsession with long-term reliability and durability may make the battery longevity target trade-offs difficult to implement but they are technically very easy -- and very quick -- to change.
 

Will1991

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Toyota being Toyota and its obsession with long-term reliability and durability may make the battery longevity target trade-offs difficult to implement but they are technically very easy -- and very quick -- to change.

This part is very important, people always paid more for a TMC car, that’s usually a little bit slower than the competition, because they know it will have much less problems than the competition.

The issue with their BEV’s is how much you loose next to the competition, it’s a lot and we know it right now.

How much longer it will last we will only know in (at least) 10 years time.
 

Sulu

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This part is very important, people always paid more for a TMC car, that’s usually a little bit slower than the competition, because they know it will have much less problems than the competition.

The issue with their BEV’s is how much you loose next to the competition, it’s a lot and we know it right now.

How much longer it will last we will only know in (at least) 10 years time.
If Toyota's customers continue to be willing to pay a bit more for a slower, less-competitive car, than Toyota does not have a problem with "less competitive" product like the bZ4X.

If, however, customers do find cars like the bZ4X to be less competitive and do not buy it, Toyota will be forced to improve it, and a very cheap and very easy improvement is to revise its battery longevity policy to trade off longevity for performance and range.

And we know that Toyota does respond to the needs and wants of its customer base. Toyota would not have done so well for so long without listening to its customers.
 

spwolf

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If Toyota's customers continue to be willing to pay a bit more for a slower, less-competitive car, than Toyota does not have a problem with "less competitive" product like the bZ4X.

If, however, customers do find cars like the bZ4X to be less competitive and do not buy it, Toyota will be forced to improve it, and a very cheap and very easy improvement is to revise its battery longevity policy to trade off longevity for performance and range.

And we know that Toyota does respond to the needs and wants of its customer base. Toyota would not have done so well for so long without listening to its customers.

What you are talking about is 5% difference.

Outside of real and fake buffer, they have smaller battery than competitors, plus they have more inefficient drivetrain. They probably have cheaper cooling and battery chemistry for slow charging. This is certainly the case with Panasonic vs Chinese battery in same vehicle.

Pretty sure it mostly comes to optimizing cost. It is what it is.

Their first gen is 4-5 years late, lets hope next one is on par with at least other traditional manufacturers.
 

mikeavelli

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This article has a few points that help explain this vehicle. For one it’s mentioned this is aimed first at China. Two sales targets are low

The first year of RX production is slated for 4,000 RZs to reach the U.S. market. But when pushed, executives noted that plans call for 2,700 RZs to be built a month globally with half going to China, Europe getting about 600, and the U.S. getting about 400 to 500 units a month once production ramps up. That would equate to about 4,800 to 6,000 RZs in the U.S. a year.

It is my assumption there are more than enough Toyota and Lexus fans who would accept some of the negatives to own this vehicle. Also some cool value adds that will be mentioned soon. EV buyers seem to do a bit more math than an ICE buyer and I also assume some people will give up better range and quicker recharging when they realize they barely drive 40 miles a day and charge at the office or home anyway.

After my pretty positive Polestar 2 experience, I am eager to try the RZ.
 

Will1991

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@CRSKTN that's quite a point of view, never thought in that way but can't point anything wrong.



This article has a few points that help explain this vehicle. For one it’s mentioned this is aimed first at China. Two sales targets are low

The first year of RX production is slated for 4,000 RZs to reach the U.S. market. But when pushed, executives noted that plans call for 2,700 RZs to be built a month globally with half going to China, Europe getting about 600, and the U.S. getting about 400 to 500 units a month once production ramps up. That would equate to about 4,800 to 6,000 RZs in the U.S. a year.

It is my assumption there are more than enough Toyota and Lexus fans who would accept some of the negatives to own this vehicle. Also some cool value adds that will be mentioned soon. EV buyers seem to do a bit more math than an ICE buyer and I also assume some people will give up better range and quicker recharging when they realize they barely drive 40 miles a day and charge at the office or home anyway.

After my pretty positive Polestar 2 experience, I am eager to try the RZ.

Do you have any info when Lexus will improve on the production numbers?

In a side note, don't you want to write some lines on the Polestar 2? I'm quite fond of that car.
 

mikeavelli

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@CRSKTN that's quite a point of view, never thought in that way but can't point anything wrong.




Do you have any info when Lexus will improve on the production numbers?

In a side note, don't you want to write some lines on the Polestar 2? I'm quite found of that car.

Nothing on production numbers. I do know they are hard at work to improve range etc already and they are well aware the challenges this car faces with specs. Again I do feel when it’s revealed there will be some nice surprises.

Yes i’ll get my Polestar 2 review up. Had like 70 miles on the clock from Hertz. I was really impressed.
 
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spwolf

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The 2023 Lexus RZ will go on sale this Winter.

Oh wow….

With production set to begin in November U.S. reservations will open on November 7. Lexus representatives said electric car enthusiasts will have something to be extra thankful for this year as sales will commence on Thanksgiving, November 24. Pricing hasn’t been set but Lexus representatives said the RZ will cost more than its platform mate, the 2023 Toyota BZ4X, which costs $43,215.

so they pushed it 9 months ahead at least.

It will also not sell great in China. And 7200 units per year for Western Europe is huge number for Lexus Western Europe. It is more than 20% of their sales.

They might be doing some last changes to make it more competitive but who knows.
 

mikeavelli

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Okay now i’m confused maybe Canada gets it then and USA gets it next month… trying to verify