NXracer

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You think it's just battery longevity people consider? There are a lot of factors that affect BEV sales but a prime one is how long the battery will last. Right now the warranty is still at eight years for all BEVs, even for the bZ4X here in Canada.

Until that warranty goes beyond eight years, there has been no change to "longevity" or "peace of mind" to merit any increase in sales. These battery ratings from Tesla are not even backed by anything. If the batteries lasts a very long time, why then did Tesla removed unlimited mileage on the S and X in early 2020?

I don't know about future sales but I bought my friend's '12 CT200h for less than $5,000 USD in March 2020 when used car market wasn't doing well. I wasn't timing the purchase, my brother-in-law backed out and I was the middleman and I thought it was a good price.

Today, the cheapest listed in my province is around $10,000 and most are listed for $11-12K. And there's but 10-12 listed at one time.

Perceived and real reliability definitely affects the used car value. Someone with a '12 Cadillac CTS is happy to get $3-4,000 USD for this car. My Accord can sell for double that (probably in better condition) and the MSRP for the CTS-V was likely $7K if not more higher than my Honda.
A variety of factors are considered when buying a new luxury EV, battery longevity being one of them. I do believe that the length of battery warranties are pushing the limit of what mfgs are willing to offer and it makes little economical sense for companies to offer longer warranties without a degree of guaranteed sales increase, especially in the states where most owners will never be able to avail of said warranties due to their cyclical purchasing habits.

That being said, your valid concerns might be something Lexus addresses on their CPO/used side as folks would be more reliant on longevity and actually use a warranty.
 

Will1991

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New (at least for me) information:

-> Boot space:

image.png


-> Boot space vs. others:
image.png


-> Rear seating space:
image.png


Source:


According to this reviewer, the RZ doesn't have a glovebox.
 

Sulu

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New (at least for me) information:

-> Boot space:

image.png


-> Boot space vs. others:
image.png


-> Rear seating space:
image.png


Source:


According to this reviewer, the RZ doesn't have a glovebox.
Those straight-in-the-back photos are always so deceiving! From these photos, it looks like the bZ4X has a larger (due to perceived length) cargo area than the RZ.
 

internalaudit

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A variety of factors are considered when buying a new luxury EV, battery longevity being one of them. I do believe that the length of battery warranties are pushing the limit of what mfgs are willing to offer and it makes little economical sense for companies to offer longer warranties without a degree of guaranteed sales increase, especially in the states where most owners will never be able to avail of said warranties due to their cyclical purchasing habits.

That being said, your valid concerns might be something Lexus addresses on their CPO/used side as folks would be more reliant on longevity and actually use a warranty.
Eight year warranty is mandated by US and other government to match the emissions control system components coverage. Eight years is not pro bono / largesse from manufacturers, and so wasn't the eight years on emissions control system components.

I've confirmed that information on several accounts. I think googling it when you have time will get you the same confirmation.

Even 1st gen Leaf batteries can last past eight years but most have noticeable degradation.

I'm just part of one household but I sure am not buying a new BEV with Li-ion battery when I can wait for better chemistry to arrive. Used if I can find a good replacement down the road, sure. Not new at $40K or more. That's 15 years worth of gasoline money where gasoline is currently at.

I'm sure many people are in the same boat, with fully paid for ICEVs and HEVs and just waiting for compelling BEVs. Although Ssun thinks torque vectoring isn't a marketing feature, in my books, it is. Even Edmunds' review of the i4 M50 suggest TVD will work wonders on the 5,000 pound BEV. Heavy BEVs will be nimbler with TVD. I am not even going to wait for 4 Wheel Steering as those only go on really high-end autos and I don't need that much performance or help with parking.

My concern is not so much the eight year warranty but more so that manufacturers are not addressing reasonably-priced refurbishment or replacement support. Even Toyota talks about second life use. Just read on those 1st ten Leaf owners who are being asked $15,000 to $25,000 for a replacement battery. That's so absurd. And what does Nissan US or Canada do about that? NADA!

If there are battery replacement support for reasonable cost, say $200-250 per kW (for broken cells or modules) versus wholesale of $100 per kW, I'd be fine switching to BEVs but clearly even Tesla is trying to capitalize on this and ask $22K without offsetting the core battery from Tesla Model S owners. Also $16,000 for a damaged battery on a Model 3 which ElectrifiedGarage fixed for $700.

Update:
Importantly, federal regulations mandate that an EV’s battery pack, arguably its most costly component, be covered for at least eight years or 100,000 miles.
 
Last edited:

Levi

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If the baterry costs as much ad the car forget BEV. That is the same scam as printers where the printer costs less than the cartridges.
 

internalaudit

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If the baterry costs as much ad the car forget BEV. That is the same scam as printers where the printer costs less than the cartridges.
Batteries probably 1/4 to 1/3 of the BEV's cost.

But if there is no way to get a replacement battery, what then? The car will be valued as scrap, correct? With ICEV or HEV, easy to get replacement/recertified combustion engines or aftermarket batteries.

My 11.5 y.o. Honda Accord is not even consuming significant motor oil, still runs fine. Lots of Tesla owners (Tesla Motor Club) worrying about battery longevity. Some wish their batteries breakdown before eight years are up to get a new lease on life haha.
 

spwolf

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Yeah i had to delete my initial posts and video but I can say it’s spacious to me, more so than the RX. It really surprised me.

that is really good to hear. thank you.

I also see some nice usability improvements in RZ compared to BZ4X - for instance, under trunk floor storage cover is split into two pieces, so even if you have luggage in the vehicle, it will be easier to pull charging cables out.

When are you going to post your RZ video again?
 

spwolf

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Batteries probably 1/4 to 1/3 of the BEV's cost.

But if there is no way to get a replacement battery, what then? The car will be valued as scrap, correct? With ICEV or HEV, easy to get replacement/recertified combustion engines or aftermarket batteries.

My 11.5 y.o. Honda Accord is not even consuming significant motor oil, still runs fine. Lots of Tesla owners (Tesla Motor Club) worrying about battery longevity. Some wish their batteries breakdown before eight years are up to get a new lease on life haha.

This sounds like arguments people used to make against hybrids. BEVs have been sold now over a decade.

There are many independent shops everywhere now that will repair a single failed cell, just like your independent mechanic will repair injectors, bosch pumps, etc, without replacing the complete engine.

Why would you replace the whole battery pack?

These same shops repair hybrid batteries as well so you dont have to spend $3000 on repairing 15 yr old Prius, instead you spend $300-$500.
 

mikeavelli

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that is really good to hear. thank you.

I also see some nice usability improvements in RZ compared to BZ4X - for instance, under trunk floor storage cover is split into two pieces, so even if you have luggage in the vehicle, it will be easier to pull charging cables out.

Likely next month. I do wish it had a frunk.
 

internalaudit

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This sounds like arguments people used to make against hybrids. BEVs have been sold now over a decade.

There are many independent shops everywhere now that will repair a single failed cell, just like your independent mechanic will repair injectors, bosch pumps, etc, without replacing the complete engine.

Why would you replace the whole battery pack?

These same shops repair hybrid batteries as well so you dont have to spend $3000 on repairing 15 yr old Prius, instead you spend $300-$500.
You should read up more on battery cell replacements and how they mostly don't work medium-term on Tesla Motor Club. If it were that easy, there would be more than four or five reputable battery refurbishment places recommended on TMC.

Of course not all battery issues are caused by malfunction of batteries, sometimes it will be the TMS/BMS. Those should be inexpensive repairs outside a SC.

Even cell replacements on an individual level for Prius seem to be stop gag measures. Sure $30 per cell but who the F has time to replace a broken one every few months?

You bought the a TM3 without reading posts on TMC forum? What sources did you peruse to help you get an informed decision? For sure many of the batteries and motors will last long but there's already reports of motor unit and battery replacements on the TM3 over on TMC. Somehow it's crapshoot when buying a Tesla. Reliability could be all over the place.
 

sl0519

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Likely next month. I do wish it had a frunk.

I noticed some videos have traditional emblem at the front but others (the 9 mins unveil and yours) have illuminated function. Is it a prototype thing or an actual feature for optional costs?
 

mikeavelli

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I noticed some videos have traditional emblem at the front but others (the 9 mins unveil and yours) have illuminated function. Is it a prototype thing or an actual feature for optional costs?
It will be a feature. i’m not sure standard or optional.
 

spwolf

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You should read up more on battery cell replacements and how they mostly don't work medium-term on Tesla Motor Club. If it were that easy, there would be more than four or five reputable battery refurbishment places recommended on TMC.

Of course not all battery issues are caused by malfunction of batteries, sometimes it will be the TMS/BMS. Those should be inexpensive repairs outside a SC.

Even cell replacements on an individual level for Prius seem to be stop gag measures. Sure $30 per cell but who the F has time to replace a broken one every few months?

You bought the a TM3 without reading posts on TMC forum? What sources did you peruse to help you get an informed decision? For sure many of the batteries and motors will last long but there's already reports of motor unit and battery replacements on the TM3 over on TMC. Somehow it's crapshoot when buying a Tesla. Reliability could be all over the place.

Cells do not fail every few months. I am active in Tesla clubs, same as I was in Toyota clubs.

Tesla has pretty lax warranty rules, I am not concerned about longevity based on several hundred members of my local club, that also complain a lot about everything (Tesla owners are complainers, contrary to customer satisfaction scores).

My freemont M3P is also built ok... it is not perfect but not terrible either. After one year, I cant say it is not holding up as well as my Toyota's or Lexi's. People who get Chinese ones say they are perfect, i dont know myself.

We have local places here that are repairing hybrid and tesla batteries and electronics just fine. They get really good reviews. Now, it also depends on what you expect from 300,000-400,000 miles cars as well.

So again, what you are saying applies to Toyota hybrids as well. And Tesla actually has less issues with electronics and batteries than any other BEV manufacturer that is producing these as volume. Same with battery degradation.
 

internalaudit

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Cells do not fail every few months. I am active in Tesla clubs, same as I was in Toyota clubs.

Tesla has pretty lax warranty rules, I am not concerned about longevity based on several hundred members of my local club, that also complain a lot about everything (Tesla owners are complainers, contrary to customer satisfaction scores).

My freemont M3P is also built ok... it is not perfect but not terrible either. After one year, I cant say it is not holding up as well as my Toyota's or Lexi's. People who get Chinese ones say they are perfect, i dont know myself.

We have local places here that are repairing hybrid and tesla batteries and electronics just fine. They get really good reviews. Now, it also depends on what you expect from 300,000-400,000 miles cars as well.

So again, what you are saying applies to Toyota hybrids as well. And Tesla actually has less issues with electronics and batteries than any other BEV manufacturer that is producing these as volume. Same with battery degradation.
I never said they were guaranteed to fail every few months. I said once some start to fail, then others will start to fail. It's just the age. This was on Prius discussion, not on Tesla.

On TMC, the few credible after market support vendor are the ones that say replacing cells don't work out in the medium-term. They're most likely more knowledgeable than the average TMC member. I think his username is wk057 but he's been quoted on many discussions.

TBH, I've seen some Tesla owners wishing their batteries would die before the eight years are up. And a few others who have accepted that batteries could conk out and willing to shell out money because they have lifetime free use of the SCN. Expected life of batteries is long, between 500 to 1500 full charge cycles. If SOC is between 20-80%, can probably last 2500 charge cycles. Only issue is that is expected. There will be cells that will outlast that and chances are, some cells could break down sooner.

TBH, there's after market support for Tesla in the way of motor and battery replacement anyway. Just have to go with credible ones and not get gouged by the service centers.

Battery toast after two years.
https://insideevs.com/news/584427/tesla-model-y-ownership-pros-cons-two-years/

I'm not poo pooing on Tesla, just making jest to tick of some of the fan bois out there. Above average handling, great acceleration. Too bad there is no Right to Repair which means more expensive parts, coupled with inconsistent build quality is a grenade in hand in the waiting.

Tesla was the goalpost, lots of manufacturers coming out with great BEVs too that aren't far behind or even better. Competition is great for consumers.
 

NXracer

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I remember LC300 having finger print based starting system, is that something the RZ gets as well?
In-car health monitoring seems to be slowly making its entrance into the high luxury space slowly (publicly Bentaga just launched with a HR monitor).
 

Will1991

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I've noticed another difference in those two (bronze and silver) RZ's:

The Silver one has a rigid strut bar:
image.png


But the Bronze one is equipped with Yamaha performance damper:
image.png


Curious to know why... Maybe just prototype things...
 

NXracer

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So is this the scaled up version of the lateral damper select RX models are equipped with in the rear (tow bar area)?