You always mention many options, but there are not many. Telsa obviously, then Kia EV6, Polestar 2, Porsche Taycan (expensive). Everything else is just boring, espensive, not worth ICEV equivalent, not useful. Cheaper than Taycan will be electric Macan.
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I dont understand what are you talking about. You can buy lots of Audis and MBs and BMWs these days. Bad ones that were released a while ago have poor range like RZ - and they are not selling well. What is RZ450e loaded model range with 20" wheels? 180-190 miles? That is just not comparable with anything anymore.
Then you can buy cheaper Hyundai/KIAs/Fords that will have higher range and lower price.
RZ450e will not be an discount option due to smaller battery. European manufacturers that sell options for smaller batter make difference of 20kwh a $3k option.
Many options to buy at the time RZ comes out. Many.
Having 160kmh top speed in Europe is really bad product planning.
In fact, one of the main "issues" with original Prius models was that it had 160kmh max speed.
This is why Toyota raised speed on their hybrids where even Yaris goes 180kmh.
I understand that for you, none of this matter. Are you actually looking to purchase RZ450e or BZ4X since apparently they are so awesome?
also, the basics are - RZ450e and BZ4X have 65kwh usable battery.
Hence all this range talk.... cars are actually efficient and comparable or better than most of competition. They just put a lot less battery inside. Again, very, very japanese.
Living in a bubble.
Hence all this range talk.... cars are actually efficient and comparable or better than most of competition. They just put a lot less battery inside. Again, very, very japanese.
Living in a bubble.
qtb007
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I didn't say it would be cheap. I said that the price of the vehicle should reflect the smaller battery. So it should be $5k or so cheaper than an Audi, MB, BMW, etc competitor that would have 275mi range.
Range doesn't automatically put the mainline brands into the RZ space. The Highlander existing with more space, same drivetrain, and a platinum trim doesn't mean that the market for an RX ceases to exist. If 220mi is enough and it comes in a little cheaper than an equivalent luxury crossover with 275mi range, why pay more for battery that he won't use?
He's looking at mainstream cars because they will fit his range needs and will be more value oriented. If the RZ offers luxury features he can't get on those mainstream brands, he could be persuaded to spend more. He's very much wired like me... it is a lot less about what we can afford and a lot more about what we see price matching the value of what we get. If that price bump over an EV6 or whatever gets him things he will use every day and enjoying, I could see him springing for it.
Personally, the MINI SE is the BEV I'd want to own. It's light, it's cheap, it's fun, and the range is long enough that 100% of my local driving could be converted to electric (10k mi/yr). It makes a measurable impact on my consumption while leaving me flexibility to use my big vehicle when I need it. I take my 4Runner on roadtrips all the time anyway because it is big, comfortable, and ready for anything. The only thing giving me pause on the MINI SE is the color options are terrible; my wife and I can't agree. And the GR Corolla is coming out.
Frankly, the notion that every car has to do everything for everyone in every situation is why the car market sucks these days. Everyone commuting in a full size pickup trucks, the death of small cars, the ever-dwindling options of sporty cars. We'll all be individual commuters driving 40 miles per day in our 5000lb egg shaped blobs.
Ian Schmidt
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This. It's convenient to compare cars solely by numbers, but it's also misleading because there's a whole experience outside of the numbers. By the numbers the LC is not really special, but actually seeing and driving one is, as the motto says, amazing.
The thing is, there is a certain threshold under which people will outright not buy an EV.
Yes specs aren't everything, but an EV with 400km range is like a 3-row crossover with 6 seats. It's enough but majority of the buyers would go for one with 7 seats instead.
Yes specs aren't everything, but an EV with 400km range is like a 3-row crossover with 6 seats. It's enough but majority of the buyers would go for one with 7 seats instead.
If Toyota/Lexus BEVs are not competitive and customers don't like them, TMC will improve them. For me if Toyota/Lexus is not enough, and I were in position to get a BEV, I'd just wait, and not look at competitors. What competitors have and is up-coming is not appealing.
Of course they have low range, because they have smaller battery than competitors. Nio ET7 with 1000 km range is not impressive, given its battery is 150 kW.
Of course they have low range, because they have smaller battery than competitors. Nio ET7 with 1000 km range is not impressive, given its battery is 150 kW.
internalaudit
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Same logic for me. Not in a rush at all. Just vicariously enjoying other Toyota/Lexus owners' experiences with their new rides. I'm happy for people who can afford to keep switching cars every so often and provide feedback on forums such at this.
Been watching some YouTube videos on Toyota repairs and just imagine the experience with many other less reliable makes haha.
I may go for non-GM/Ultium Honda/Acura though if only because I'm sure Acura BEVs will come with SH-AWD and who knows when Toyota will get TVD on its BEVs. Even the Genesis GV60 has optional e-LSD or TVD. This feature is likely coming to more BEVs in a few years.
I don't think Toyota/Lexus will put TVD in non performance models. With ICEVs, get performance model give a different engine with more cylinders. How do performance BEVs differentiate other than HP and resulting straight line acceleration?
If there other (non TMC) BEVs I am looking forward to, those are the electric Macan, Alpine sports car and Alpine crossover. Renault 5/Alpine 5 will be FWD, so no, and the Lotus crossover is an ugly Urus rival, so another world.
internalaudit
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I'm not going to track in my lifetime. Just want neutral / stable cornering feel (I'm not interested in drifts LOL) and some additional safety technology during inclement weather.
If bZ4X and Solterra have brake-based torque vectoring on one axle and the Honda Civic has that too (Agile Handling Assist), I can't believe Toyota/Lexus will not bother with benefits of improved handling. I doubt brake-based TVD will help when the car is traveling on very different surfaces (ice vs snow or dry pavement) which is what I'm looking for in a TVD system but I'm not by any means proficient with engineering/technology, like some of you are.
Macan EV would be a great choice for sure. That's one of the unveiling I was looking forward to this year.
ACA is standard on all TMC vehicles now. It is part of the VSC software. They don't advertise that because it's not a marketable feature in 2022 anyway. It was fashionable like 7-8 years ago but nowadays it's like advertising your car has side impact airbags.
1000km NEDC range with 150kWh is trash efficiency in 2022.
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So for the RZ
450 km J-WLTC
225 miles US manufacturer-estimate
What are the equivalent WLTP / EPA values?
internalaudit
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Surprised many vehicles still understeer a lot in test drive/reviews. Maybe the ACA is very very subtle?
Brake-based TV was in vogue during the Ford Focus days but besides rear wheel steering, I don't see or know of any technology like TV that increases traction, cornering performance and reduces understeer without having to bulk up suspension components or brace the car in many areas.
Even Porsche owners feel the difference with PTV Plus.
Maybe TV wears components faster so TMC dials its ACA down quite a bit?
Update:
You are right. Looks like standard offering now.
Toyota Breaks the Sameness Barrier With All-New 2021 Venza Crossover - Toyota USA Newsroom
PLANO, Texas (May 18, 2020) – With a striking new debut, Toyota is breaking the sameness barrier in the midsize two-row crossover utility vehicle (CUV) category. The all-new 2021 Venza delivers an intuitive driving experience with smooth acceleration, predictable handling, and low noise...
Venza’s handling is bolstered by an electronically controlled brake system featuring Active Cornering Assist (ACA), which engages the stability control to reduce understeer in certain cornering situations. The driver feels only the enhanced agility, not the system’s operation.
The hybrid system uses a differential torque pre-load function, which enhances acceleration and deceleration controllability when starting off or cornering on normal or slippery roads. The feature also helps enhance steering performance at higher speeds, straight-line stability and controllability on rough roads
Update 2:
At least on the '19 RAV4H, ACA only activates during acceleration. Can't fault that when SH-AWD and all other TVD only activate when stepping on the gas pedal.
■ Active Cornering Assist
(ACA)
Helps to prevent the vehicle
from drifting to the outer side by
performing inner wheel brake
control when attempting to
accelerate during cornering.
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Not entirely true for everyone. In the truck community range is an important factor, there was some complaint when 3rd gen Prado had a smaller tank than 2nd gen Prado. Also luxury cars (that consumed more) did factor in range by making larger tanks. Infiniti FX had a proud large capacity tank of 90l, and Porsche proposed -- and probably still does -- 90l tanks for Panamera, Cayenne and even 911.
In car reviews and brochure, specs mentioned in addition to fuel tank size and average/combined consumption, the range on full tank. I personally also like long range tanks, it is such a pleasure for me to drive 1300km on long trips without having to refuel (Infiniti Q50 Diesel). Refuel stops can also pose increase security risks (depending on country, place, situation).
Range is very much relevant in countries with high and unstable fuel prices.
Toyota/Honda successfully marketed "1000km+ on a single tank" for their hybrids in many regions.
And yes in truck/offroading community range is extremely important. Toyota keeps the auxiliary tanks (even wasting precious chassis space) for this exact reason. It's just in U.S. they don't have auxiliary tanks.
Toyota/Honda successfully marketed "1000km+ on a single tank" for their hybrids in many regions.
And yes in truck/offroading community range is extremely important. Toyota keeps the auxiliary tanks (even wasting precious chassis space) for this exact reason. It's just in U.S. they don't have auxiliary tanks.
most of people buying EVs do take a look at range. Manufacturers like Audi and VW are now saying that their upcoming vehicles will have longer range and will charge faster.
What is a good range is different for everyone, but for instance important part is that 450km is not really 450km. It is best conditions 450km and fast highway in winter only 220km. Add to that at least 15%-20% buffer from top and bottom, and it means less than 200km range in reality.
In my personal experience, trips that you have to charge more than 2x are very inconvenient.
For instance, one stop means that I add 15m to my trip compared to gas vehicle (30m EV charge and 15m fuel charge), but 3 stops mean I added 90m to the trip where my old gas vehicle took only 15m. That is quite big difference.
Not sure if I am making it hard to understand, but that is where I found myself frustrated.
Also long range evs are better even for smaller trips, simply because you charge them less and you have to worry about it less.
In Twingo, during winter your range is going to be less than 100km. That means you are always having to charge it, just in case. In M3, I have to charge it once every 7 days really, at worst. Removes a lot of worry from your head, even if you drive 30km per day usually.
Rydo
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This is going to sound abrasive but if you are defending range-chat and trying to make a case that anyone in their right mind considered the range of an ICE car to be a deciding factor then you are beyond deluded. Some obscure circumstance of use case doesn’t cut it and it’s EV apologist junk.
No, I disagree. It has has been well established that ICEVs should have 600-1000km range on full tank. The C Class has been criticized for having a smaller fuel tank, so has the PHEV 3 Series compared to normal ICE powered 3 Series. Maybe "range" was not as "mainstream" as now, but in European car reviews, range was usually always mentioned along fuel consumption. To call Porsche's optional 90l fuel tank an "obscure circumstance" is just wrong. Bigger cars with larger engines always had bigger tanks to compensate for consumption and thus retain the desired full tank range expectation.