Lexus Has Cancelled the GS Sedan

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redesign GS make it like A7 CLS 6 Gran coupe Ghibli

GS 4 door coupe roofline (smaller version of LS500) , or 4 Door LC
that 's the best way

IS for Small size , ES for Midsize , GS for Sporty Mid size , LC, LS500

but i like design ( ES) , but i like Interior + Rear wheel drive (GS)
 

Mohammed Taha

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Oh wow, I am really sorry everyone for pushing this rumour so much for the past few months. After having various conversations today regarding this all over and discovering some actual product planning info, the next GS is NOT being cancelled. It is coming! Some Lexus personnel have debunked this rumour, claiming that it is moving forward and to NOT expect the next GS nor the next ES this year, but 2018 and 2019. However, until we see actual prototypes of this car, trust everything with a grain of salt.

My advice to everyone, is too research the development codes I have provided for you, as that will lead to concrete info in some cases.

Lol ... I'm not sure why anyone would trust the rumour as it was nothing but a rumour. What shocked me was how many of the members scorned Lexus saying and I'm paraphrasing "That's it, I'm jumping ship!"

If you want a Benz, get a Benz. Lol. I have one. There's nothing wrong with exploring your options or favouring one brand over another because it makes financial sense.

Anyways, I like what you said regarding trickling the design language from the top down. I think that is now what Lexus is doing, same goes for BMW, Mercedes had just recently started doing and Audi had always done. But then again, all Audi models always looked very identical.

None of the Mercedes vehicles ever looked the same. However, this time around, Mercedes released the S and C, E trailed and now E fits right in between the two albeit having better technology than the outgoing S class.

BMW in 2009 released the design in the 3 first then the 5, and the 7 followed. I'm ignoring the even numbered models as they're new. Now the 7 was released, 5 matched the styling and a new 3 is probably planned very soon.

As for Lexus, the IS and GS looked like they were cut from the same cloth, the LS was of a different breed and the ES was just a car that had to be there because it was successful? Now, the IS and GS had to be refreshed which they did, the ES got a refresh as well but the LS had to be the best of everything.

The LS will lead in style, the GS and IS will follow but I'm not sure what they plan to do with the ES. It's on a shared platform limiting its potential.
 

meth.ix

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I don’t think removing the ES will hurt sales too much. Most buyers of the ES are long-time Lexus customers who are loyal, and will not likely switch to BMW or Benz just because the ES is no longer in the lineup since there is still the GS. The ES was the cheapest luxury car in that size range, so even if the customers go to another car company for a car that size, they will not find a car that has the same size for a price similar to the ES. So, they will go back to Lexus to buy the GS even though it is more expensive, since it is still a Lexus that is priced no higher than any other car in its class.


Also, if the ES is removed, haters can’t really call Lexuses rebadged Toyotas with the exception of some SUVs


Just my two cents, and I’m not 1% sure if I am correct on these facts.
 

Mohammed Taha

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Also, if the ES is removed, haters can’t really call Lexuses rebadged Toyotas with the exception of some SUVs

I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing a platform if there are significant differences between cars within the same shared platform.

Jag - Land Rover do it.
Porsche - Audi - VW do it. VW Group is huge so I'm sure there's quite a bit more shared there.

I'm sure there are quite a few others that do it to cut production costs but the problems start when you can barely distinguish the two.

For example, the Avalon fully spec'd is a really nice car and the same goes for the ES. So why would anyone in their right mind buy an ES? Oh, the badge, softer leather maybe, that's it. Even the engine is the same. The differences are subtle.

But when you take a look at the VW Platforms the differences are so big that you can easily sell each car as a different car. There's no way that you can't tell the difference between an Audi Q7 and the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S! They look different, sound different, feel different, etc...

Lexus needs to start thinking Lexus and feed down to Toyota not work together to achieve the same result with subtle differences. I mean the Land Cruiser and the LX are practically the same car with again, subtle differences on the outside.
 

meth.ix

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If the next generation GS is debuted, will the next GS F be debuted at the same time or at a later date? I know the IS F was still being sold while the 3IS was being sold, but maybe that had to do with the IS F being discontinued. IMO it makes no sense to sell the old GS F while a new GS is being sold. They should be revealed at the same time. If they aren't, the GS F should be discontinued until the next-gen comes to the dealerships.
 

Ian Schmidt

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ES used to also be a popular family car until the RX happened.

I'll repeat my suggestion here from another thread: make a US-only base model GS that's basically FWD ES mechanicals (plus an AWD option), and then spend the extra money over an ES on a "shrunken LS" interior. US-model GS F-Sport would have the same interior but an RWD/AWD drive train, and would be the base model for regions where the ES isn't sold or doesn't sell well. And you already know what GS F would be.
 

krew

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krew
17-05-01-lexus-gs-replacement.jpg


Rumors on the GS sedan's demise have reached a fevered pitch.
View the original article post
 

Gecko

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Wow... great analysis, @krew. As much as I hate the idea, I think the business case you've laid out makes a lot of sense, unfortunately.

A couple of things that Toyota or Lexus will need to figure out:

How flexible and rigid are the FWD TNGA platforms? Historically, Toyota's FWD platforms haven't gone much above 270hp and if Lexus has plans for something like an ES F-Sport with one of the new turbocharged V6s coupled with an AWD system, that's a far cry from any FWD-based sedan we've ever had before. I think it can be done, but we're talking about a much stronger, more flexible FWD architecture than Toyota has ever developed before.

We just talked about this in the NX thread, but Dynamic Torque Control AWD will not be a sufficient way to build such a car, as it requires a slip or loss of traction before the rear wheels even engage. Lexus would need to develop something like what Audi had with an active torque split of 50/50 or 30/70 F/R to make the car not feel like an overpowered, FWD torque steering monster.

Devil's advocate - and I know this isn't how Toyota thinks - but why not scale the ES back to the Camry platform/size, and more heavily invest in GA-L, keeping the GS? Think of a world where LC, LS, GS, IS, RC, RX and GX could all be riding on GA-L with optional AWD? Makes a lot of sense IMO to "scale up" in terms of resources than to "scale down" and try to make FWD work on midsize cars with 300+ hp. With how Mercedes is trying to capture the "sporty" market with the C Class now, a FWD, Camry-sized luxury tomb ES could make a lot of sense for entry level money.

An ES that tries to be a GS as well... does that end up as something that's too compromised, or does it turn out to be a brilliant move? I guess that's the catch here. It could go either or neither way. Audi makes it work with the A6 2.0T with FWD all the way up to the RS6, but to my point above, that's a far cry from anything we've ever seen Toyota do before, and it would require a level of engineering we've never seen Toyota put into flexible/FWD platforms.
 

corradoMR2

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@krew I totally agree with your assessment and conclusion. I see the end of the road for the GS. But you missed one key additional reason besides the ES and that is the IS.

Clearly, to me this also indicates an "opportunity" (or justification, depends how you see it) for the IS to grow a tad and fill in the GS' shoes. Afterall, the IS was a 8/9ths GS mechanically size, etc. However, I do hope it does not go the TLX route where it misses the mark failing to somewhat excite like the TSX did and failing to have some panache like the TL did.

Let's keep an eye on the IS as I have a feeling the IS' future is closely tied to the GS' fate!
 

mediumhot

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@krew I totally agree with your assessment and conclusion. I see the end of the road for the GS. But you missed one key additional reason besides the ES and that is the IS.

Clearly, to me this also indicates an "opportunity" (or justification, depends how you see it) for the IS to grow a tad and fill in the GS' shoes. Afterall, the IS was a 8/9ths GS mechanically size, etc. However, I do hope it does not go the TLX route where it misses the mark failing to somewhat excite like the TSX did and failing to have some panache like the TL did.

Let's keep an eye on the IS as I have a feeling the IS' future is closely tied to the GS' fate!

Unfortunately they can't grow IS anything out of ordinary because it's size and pricing is exact reason why it sells more than anything else in Lexus sedan line up in international markets outside of US, like substantially more.

TLX like premium tweener could never work in global market because of BMW and Audi. What BMW and Audi did was spectacular, their strip base versions of A3/A4/3/1 have practically killed the non-premium small sedan market. They brought down the price in order to kill Renault Laguna, Honda Accord, Toyota Avensis, Mazda 6, Peugeot 407, Ford Mondeo, Hyundai I40. They literally killed them off the market, Laguna is gone, Accord is gone, 407 is gone, Avensis will be gone soon. They figured to offer non premium small sedan with premium badge for a semi-premium price and it's working! People go for stripped 3 series instead of loaded Accord or any of the mentioned above. Honda straight out dropped out of the game while others like Renault or Mazda now offer larger sedans, tweeners like TLX for the same price they offered small sedans. Lexus tweener would cost more than IS and at the same time it would be uncompetitive in either premium small sedan due to high price or premium midsize sedan due to size and features.

What Toyota should really do is replace Avensis with Lexus IS in international markets. Sell Lexus IS in Toyota dealerships, no kidding. This would work on so many levels. it would introduce Lexus to a lot more people and at the same time IS would end up being the fist Lexus to many future Lexus loyal customers. On top of that they would fight against BMW and Audi for that stripped trim small sedan with premium badge slice of a pie. I bet it would sell a lot more than Avensis sells today.
 
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Welp, there goes my dream car. But I'm not exactly buying it though (this may be the denial stage). There really isn't that much work to do to bring the GS in line with its competitors. All they have to do is to reduce the price of the GS F by 20 grand, rename it the GS 500 F sport, and then develop a real GS F. Also as well, develop new turbo engines to compete with the Audi A6 3.0T Quattro. Toyota themselves promised an average of 3.4 new engines every year for five years. Plenty of opportunities there. Then, the GS and ES would be more diverse. Oh yes, there's the price difference. This can be justified by the different outputs of the V6s that Lexus crammed into each of their midsize sedans. The more power, the more expensive. Toyota can give the ES its new Camry V6 and develop a new turbo-six for the GS, and help make it competitive again. The only problem is, if it was easy, then it would already been done a long time ago.
 

krew

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@krew I totally agree with your assessment and conclusion. I see the end of the road for the GS. But you missed one key additional reason besides the ES and that is the IS.

Clearly, to me this also indicates an "opportunity" (or justification, depends how you see it) for the IS to grow a tad and fill in the GS' shoes. Afterall, the IS was a 8/9ths GS mechanically size, etc. However, I do hope it does not go the TLX route where it misses the mark failing to somewhat excite like the TSX did and failing to have some panache like the TL did.

I did have some thoughts about the IS, RC, and LS, but didn't want to make the article any more confusing. I think these three models can handle the majority of people that buy the GS, with the remainder scooped up by a revamped ES.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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This "future of the GS" discussion is (coincidentally?) intertwined with and relevant to recent remarks by Tokuo Fukuichi (formerly Lexus International president, now chief branding officer for the marque) at the recent Shanghai Auto Show. Said remarks were reported in an Automotive News article by Hans Greimel, and appear in full in a Lexus Enthusiast thread started by member Tragic Bronson:
https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/...-for-lexus-sedans-it-could-be-do-or-die.3284/

Here are some relevant excerpts, however:

...Lexus sedans need to up their game or risk going extinct...

...As crossovers handle more like cars do, sedans need to deliver even better driving dynamics.

...Fukuichi says he even sees room for a Lexus station wagon.

"Unless we can really offer a sedan experience you cannot have with an SUV or crossover, I think the sedan may not be able to survive if it does not evolve," Fukuichi, who also leads advanced design for Toyota Motor, told Automotive News at the Shanghai auto show here in April.

"At a certain point of time, the traditional, square, three-box sedan will go away"...

Lexus can counter (the growing popularity of crossovers and SUVs) by giving its sedans lower centers of gravity so they handle more like coupes or sports cars, Fukuichi said. Steering response also needs to be improved...

Sedans must evolve away from their stodgy roots, he said...

The look might progress in the direction of the GT-styled Porsche Panamera, Fukuichi said. Lexus might find room for a station wagon someday, though nothing is planned, he added.

"Personally, I would like to have a Lexus wagon if we had enough resources," he said. "Maybe not as tall as an SUV but not as short as a wagon. There could be some optimized packaging.

"If we're going to do it, it can't be just an ordinary station wagon," he said.

With the 5LS already showing some Porsche Panamera influence in its look, might the future of the GS be not as the RWD-centric sedan that sits in between the IS and LS, but as a rival to the newly-launched Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo station wagon?
 

GSCT

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With the 5LS already showing some Porsche Panamera influence in its look, might the future of the GS be not as the RWD-centric sedan that sits in between the IS and LS, but as a rival to the newly-launched Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo station wagon?

My god what a depressing thread! I think there is a huge disconnect between Lexus' emphasis on "no more boring cars" and the large, soft sprung, low price ES. Without the GS all Lexus will have to support the "not boring" proposition will be the IS - the LS and LC are becoming ultra luxury (and ultra priced) and everything else is a SUV or crossover.

But personally, a GS sized, high performance wagon would be perfect. I can only hope.
 

spwolf

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My god what a depressing thread! I think there is a huge disconnect between Lexus' emphasis on "no more boring cars" and the large, soft sprung, low price ES. Without the GS all Lexus will have to support the "not boring" proposition will be the IS - the LS and LC are becoming ultra luxury (and ultra priced) and everything else is a SUV or crossover.

But personally, a GS sized, high performance wagon would be perfect. I can only hope.

Problem is sales. GS does not sell well in age of SUVs. Wagons sell only in Europe. Lexus RWD sedans sell poorly in Europe.

So RWD based Lexus GS Wagon is impossible to happen.

Lexus dealers worldwide need competitive car to sell. That would be next gen ES thats priced just above IS. Maybe grow IS a bit to provide that larger rear seat/boot as needed.
 

krew

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My god what a depressing thread! I think there is a huge disconnect between Lexus' emphasis on "no more boring cars" and the large, soft sprung, low price ES. Without the GS all Lexus will have to support the "not boring" proposition will be the IS - the LS and LC are becoming ultra luxury (and ultra priced) and everything else is a SUV or crossover.

It's only depressing if the GS just disappears and the ES doesn't change. The thing I keep coming back -- if Audi can sell the FWD/AWD A6 without criticism, why should it be any different for Lexus?

Mind you, this requires Lexus developing an AWD system that rivals Quattro...
 

krew

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This "future of the GS" discussion is (coincidentally?) intertwined with and relevant to recent remarks by Tokuo Fukuichi (formerly Lexus International president, now chief branding officer for the marque) at the recent Shanghai Auto Show.

That AN article came out moments after I finished this GS/ES opinion piece on Friday. Still haven't been able to process all the things Fukuichi-san says in that interview. It's wild.
 

maiaramdan

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So the next GS can be something like LF-S with the LF-X as it's cuv
I love those both concepts
And i will be astonished and very happy if they get the opportunity to live on and translated to production model

The LF-S was before the panamera , A7 and approximately all except the CLS and the HPX or the LF-X was then the first rwd based cuv / suv

In this case they will have the 4 doors coupe and the performance cuv under 1 name the GS which will be differ from the awd , fwd based ES, with LS mated to LC coupe and IS mated to RC coupe the GS will get it's own cuv sport cross
 
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Gecko

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This "future of the GS" discussion is (coincidentally?) intertwined with and relevant to recent remarks by Tokuo Fukuichi (formerly Lexus International president, now chief branding officer for the marque) at the recent Shanghai Auto Show. Said remarks were reported in an Automotive News article by Hans Greimel, and appear in full in a Lexus Enthusiast thread started by member Tragic Bronson:
https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/...-for-lexus-sedans-it-could-be-do-or-die.3284/

With the 5LS already showing some Porsche Panamera influence in its look, might the future of the GS be not as the RWD-centric sedan that sits in between the IS and LS, but as a rival to the newly-launched Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo station wagon?

I read Fukuichi's comments shortly after this thread was posted, and it's almost more puzzling to me considering the GS vs ES speculation.

What I don't fundamentally understand is where Lexus decided to elevate the ES from entry level to midsize when they already had a midsize sedan (GS), and then when you read the comments coming out of company leadership like Fukuichi's... Lexus needs a "GS" all day.
  • A sedan with more dramatic, coupey GT-like styling? You could argue that 2GS started that trend, 3GS carried it on and then for some reason, they dropped it with 4GS.
  • A car that offers a more dynamic driving experience that you can't get in a crossover? That too would be the GS. Aside from ground clearance, there is little difference between the ES and RX behind the steering wheel.
  • Traditional "three-box" sedan is going to die? That's historically been the ES.

Could all of the things above change for the ES, and make it a more dynamic car? Yes, in theory. But now you're talking about a completely different automobile and one that I worry will be "ok at everything" and great at nothing. You're also talking about seriously changing the formula for a car that sells ~5k units a month and has a pretty loyal fan base. That's dangerous.

ES has always been a floaty cruiser with "face value" luxury that serves a number of buyers. There's a market here, as much as everyone wants to think it's boring and uninspiring. To create an ES that could capture or satisfy the GS shopper requires a drastic change in strategy and I'm not saying it's impossible, but Lexus making that dramatic of a change would be extremely out of character. We're talking about (in theory) a performance AWD system with active torque split between front and rear, a 350hp+ engine, F Sport package, dramatic styling (even outside of F-Sport add-ons like wheels and front grill), aggressive exhaust note, sporty handling and steering feel, etc. I don't know how much of this can be accomplished with a FWD platform that's first and foremost expected to capture those same 5k "simple luxury" buyers a month.

If the industry says that people are going to move from sedans to crossovers, doesn't it make sense to think that the RX would pick up ES buyers, not that the ES would pick up GS buyers? Lexus offers no performance crossover so there's nowhere for GS buyers to go... especially not to an RX or ES, as they exist now.

Whenever the next gen ES debuts, I guess that will be our best indication of what to expect from Lexus going forward with regard to the GS. If we're looking at a car that's lower, more dramatic, has more option packages and optional AWD, I'll say I think that could be it for the GS. However, looking at the market and Fukuichi's comments, I have a hard time seeing why there wouldn't be a market for a true four door coupe GS priced from $55-80k. I have a feeling that the new LS is going to cost around $80-85k base and I have a hard time seeing one sedan occupy the territory from ~$40k - 70k when it's still seen as an entry level Lexus. Unless Lexus is completely willing to give this market up to BMW, Mercedes and Audi - and they fully believe the sedan market will never come back - then I do still think there is a market here for a true performance oriented midsize sedan. I almost wonder if it makes more sense to ditch the RC and pitch the GS as a "four door coupe" to that market.

I know this is overly dramatic because it's an artist rendering and supposed to be a GS F, but imagine something like this in the Lexus lineup between ES and LS. It's a completely different animal, and much more like a 6GT, CLS, Panamera, etc.

16-05-04-lexus-gs-f-rendering-2018-thumb.jpg


In summary, I just feel like Lexus has been half-assing the GS for about 12 years and 2 generations now and I still think there is some viable business opportunity here if Lexus goes all-in like they did in 1998. People want dramatic, engaging, dynamic sedans - Lexus just said so. That car in the Lexus lineup is supposed to be the GS. I think them walking away from that formula under these market conditions is a bad idea. Not to mention that for the first time, we have a great scaleable RWD architecture so in theory, the investment to create a GS should be less than it ever has been before.
 

krew

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What I don't fundamentally understand is where Lexus decided to elevate the ES from entry level to midsize when they already had a midsize sedan (GS), and then when you read the comments coming out of company leadership like Fukuichi's... Lexus needs a "GS" all day.
  • A sedan with more dramatic, coupey GT-like styling? You could argue that 2GS started that trend, 3GS carried it on and then for some reason, they dropped it with 4GS.
  • A car that offers a more dynamic driving experience that you can't get in a crossover? That too would be the GS. Aside from ground clearance, there is little difference between the ES and RX behind the steering wheel.
  • Traditional "three-box" sedan is going to die? That's historically been the ES.

Regardless of outcome, this interview with Fukuichi is setting the table for a major change in the lineup. I would say he's speaking from a global perspective, and right now the GS is the global mid-size sedan.

He's also talking about a Lexus station wagon, so really, all bets are off.

Could all of the things above change for the ES, and make it a more dynamic car? Yes, in theory. But now you're talking about a completely different automobile and one that I worry will be "ok at everything" and great at nothing. You're also talking about seriously changing the formula for a car that sells ~5k units a month and has a pretty loyal fan base. That's dangerous.

Cancelling the GS is dangerous as well, perhaps even more so from a branding perspective. I also want to reiterate -- a world where the GS is cancelled and the ES remains the same-old automotive appliance is a world I don't want to live in.

Whenever the next gen ES debuts, I guess that will be our best indication of what to expect from Lexus going forward with regard to the GS. If we're looking at a car that's lower, more dramatic, has more option packages and optional AWD, I'll say I think that could be it for the GS. However, looking at the market and Fukuichi's comments, I have a hard time seeing why there wouldn't be a market for a true four door coupe GS priced from $55-80k.

The GS reinvented to be a left-field four-door coupe similar to the CLS or A7? The ES implementing the new Camry driving dynamics and filling up the mid-size sedan segment? That feels perfectly reasonable to me. But this is not the kind of change that has a quick turnaround. Even if this was the eventual solution, we could go a few years with no GS in the lineup.
 
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