Official Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain/Product Discussion

Gecko

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New Highlander Hybrid gets a 240hp version of "300h" powertrain vs 219hp for AWD Rav4 and 215hp for Avalon Hybrid.
Considering that Avalon already has 39hp battery output, I doubt the difference of 25hp is all due to the increased battery output? But it might be.
I think this is great news. I was hoping to see if Toyota released any info around weight savings on the new Highlander, since going from 310hp to 240hp for the hybrid is a sizable decrease. If they were able to shave some weight off, that would be great... but this decision tells me that Toyota's own research shows that Highlander hybrid buyers are most concerned with MPG, and going from 28 to 34MPG on a three row SUV is insanely awesome.
 

spwolf

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I think this is great news. I was hoping to see if Toyota released any info around weight savings on the new Highlander, since going from 310hp to 240hp for the hybrid is a sizable decrease. If they were able to shave some weight off, that would be great... but this decision tells me that Toyota's own research shows that Highlander hybrid buyers are most concerned with MPG, and going from 28 to 34MPG on a three row SUV is insanely awesome.
it also comes down to the cost worldwide, 450h powertrain is very expensive... if they can add 300h to RX and keep it a 8s 0-100kmh vehicle, it is a great thing for their sales because it will drop price in heavy tax markets by $10k.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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I think this is great news. I was hoping to see if Toyota released any info around weight savings on the new Highlander, since going from 310hp to 240hp for the hybrid is a sizable decrease. If they were able to shave some weight off, that would be great... but this decision tells me that Toyota's own research shows that Highlander hybrid buyers are most concerned with MPG, and going from 28 to 34MPG on a three row SUV is insanely awesome.
It's certainly great news from the fuel economy point of view (the reason most folks go hybrid) but it makes me wonder if the notion of a V6 hybrid in a transversely-mounted, FWD-centric platform is kaput within Toyota/Lexus. We'll see what happens with next Lexus RX and Toyota Sienna.

Personally, I'd borrow from the European Corolla and outgoing Lexus GS (outside North America) playbooks and offer both economy (4-cyl) and performance (V6) hybrid variants.
 

Gecko

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It's certainly great news from the fuel economy point of view (the reason most folks go hybrid) but it makes me wonder if the notion of a V6 hybrid in a transversely-mounted, FWD-centric platform is kaput within Toyota/Lexus. We'll see what happens with next Lexus RX and Toyota Sienna.

Personally, I'd borrow from the European Corolla and outgoing Lexus GS (outside North America) playbooks and offer both economy (4-cyl) and performance (V6) hybrid variants.
I can see Highlander foregoing the V6 hybrid, but I'd like for the next RX to have it. Lexus needs to move further away in differentiation, and that would be a good way to do it.

I'd also like for the next RX to not have the GR V6, but I'm not so sure that will happen. That engine is 15 years old now and RX needs to be putting out ~340+ hp.
 

spwolf

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I can see Highlander foregoing the V6 hybrid, but I'd like for the next RX to have it. Lexus needs to move further away in differentiation, and that would be a good way to do it.

I'd also like for the next RX to not have the GR V6, but I'm not so sure that will happen. That engine is 15 years old now and RX needs to be putting out ~340+ hp.
I doubt V6 hybrid will dissappear in RX, and I also doubt there will be 300h option in the US.
 

internalaudit

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For the upcoming 10+ BEVs (by 2025), I am thinking the chances of a Lexus IS BEV has gone up thanks to how briskly the sales of the Tesla Model 3 are doing. Many households are moving to CUVs but I would still rather drive a sedan especially when the CD and CG are lower.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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For the upcoming 10+ BEVs (by 2025), I am thinking the chances of a Lexus IS BEV has gone up thanks to how briskly the sales of the Tesla Model 3 are doing. Many households are moving to CUVs but I would still rather drive a sedan especially when the CD and CG are lower.
Don't forget that the UX 300e trademark filed in Europe is in itself indicative of that probability.
 

internalaudit

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It pains me to disappoint my daughter and possibly my wife for reneging on a statement that we might get a German BEV (Q4 etron, Macan if priced reasonable) but damn, I'm the only person bringing our cars in for servicing and repairs and I'm not a glutton for punishment.

Lexus is probably a good compromise. I doubt Toyota will be aggressive with BEVs in its Toyota North American line up, at least in the next five or six years.
 

spwolf

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It pains me to disappoint my daughter and possibly my wife for reneging on a statement that we might get a German BEV (Q4 etron, Macan if priced reasonable) but damn, I'm the only person bringing our cars in for servicing and repairs and I'm not a glutton for punishment.

Lexus is probably a good compromise. I doubt Toyota will be aggressive with BEVs in its Toyota North American line up, at least in the next five or six years.
5-6 years is a very long time.
 

internalaudit

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5-6 years is a very long time.
What I meant to say was Toyota will likely release Lexus BEVs before Toyota BEVs in North America.

But if you meant something else, then see below:

Not when the following are still running fine and not costing me a lot to maintain lol. I am not in the camp that flips cars every few years because that to me is a waste of money.

02 Civic 5MT
11 Accord 5AT
16 RAV4H
 

spwolf

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What I meant to say was Toyota will likely release Lexus BEVs before Toyota BEVs in North America.

But if you meant something else, then see below:

Not when the following are still running fine and not costing me a lot to maintain lol. I am not in the camp that flips cars every few years because that to me is a waste of money.

02 Civic 5MT
11 Accord 5AT
16 RAV4H
i mean they will likely release a lot of various BEVs in next 5-6 years.
 

internalaudit

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i mean they will likely release a lot of various BEVs in next 5-6 years.
That's good to know. I still think Lexus BEVs will be easier sells. Hopefully the AWD on these BEVs will not be awful like those on the hybrid models.
 

ssun30

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Yes the 450h is too heavy and expensive for the Highlander/RX. The weight penalty ends up eating a lot of MPG and performance. The 450h is not faster than the 350 which is poor advertising. Plus they are losing tons of sales due to the high price. In China alone they have 1.5k/month missing due to the RX450h being prohibitively expensive for many buyers. So in the end the 450h powertrain is good on paper but doesn't work in practice. The new 300h powertrain will end up being a much more desirable option in many markets, including North America.
 

Gecko

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Yes the 450h is too heavy and expensive for the Highlander/RX. The weight penalty ends up eating a lot of MPG and performance. The 450h is not faster than the 350 which is poor advertising. Plus they are losing tons of sales due to the high price. In China alone they have 1.5k/month missing due to the RX450h being prohibitively expensive for many buyers. So in the end the 450h powertrain is good on paper but doesn't work in practice. The new 300h powertrain will end up being a much more desirable option in many markets, including North America.
I disagree about North America... 450h/Highlander Hybrid still puts down great MPG numbers, and the extra weight + V6 provides a super smooth ride that rivals old school LSs. It's whisper silent, butter smooth, quick on it's feet and still gets great MPG for an SUV. I4 is going to be more efficient, for sure, but there will be some loss of smoothness and probably more noise with the I4. On top of that, recent changes to the pricing structure have made RX 450h a very desirable option over the RX 350... it's not much of a premium at all. I know other world markets are a different story.
 

mikeavelli

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It seems the new Highlander is using an updated system. They noted how the batteries are even smaller and fit neatly under the seats. I am unsure of the performance difference between the two but I have always found the current 450h to be a marvel with nearly 300hp and still getting 30MPG with all the same features of a normal RX.
 

ssun30

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I disagree about North America... 450h/Highlander Hybrid still puts down great MPG numbers, and the extra weight + V6 provides a super smooth ride that rivals old school LSs. It's whisper silent, butter smooth, quick on it's feet and still gets great MPG for an SUV. I4 is going to be more efficient, for sure, but there will be some loss of smoothness and probably more noise with the I4. On top of that, recent changes to the pricing structure have made RX 450h a very desirable option over the RX 350... it's not much of a premium at all. I know other world markets are a different story.
True. It is a very capable system but it's still too much complexity for not enough gains. I know that in Japan the RX450h is considered an executive class vehicle (read: not to be driven by ordinary people) due to its super solid NVH.

I didn't say they should not keep a 450h. In fact I believe it is a given they will have a flagship hybrid trim for the RX: they still haven't shown the last piece of hybrid system in that road map. It looks like a transverse system so it shouldn't be the one used by their trucks.

Considering they are adding more and more PHVs in the near future, the new RX450h could also be a RX450e with a much more powerful battery pack with, say, 120 kW. That way they will easily have a 350+hp RX that will also be even smoother and quieter because it will run on battery power most of the time.
 
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