ssun30

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So just a year ago hydrogen ICE seemed like a ridiculous idea and this year we saw three hydrogen ICE prototypes (G16, 2UR, 1000cc ROV engine) and another rumored for production (2ZR for Prius). They were able to close the power gap, without using forced induction? And a stoichiometric AFR, without AdBlue injection? How did they solve the NOx issue? Hydrogen ICE is still a ridiculous idea (because of storage) but the engineering that went into these prototypes is still very fascinating.

To me this is a very good opportunity to revive the 1LR. Yamaha please do it!

According to the PDF on the European website. The new 2.0 hybrid system, the FWD version engine power has been increased to 171ps. Same with ICE M20 series output. That make system combined output to 197ps
The FWD uses M20-FKS with 13.0:1 compression ratio. The FXS in the AWD is still 113kW.

I think this possibly means Toyota will offer power-optimized hybrids using the standard "low" compression ICE in the future for more product differentiation. For example NX350h and NX450h+ can get another 16PS from the A25-FKS while sacrificing fuel efficiency slightly.

What's also new about the 5th gen THS is significantly larger battery. The new battery is 60s3p with 4.08Ah capacity. Total capacity is thus 3.7x60x3x4.08 = 2.71kWh. The largest hybrid battery ever in a Toyota hybrid.

Unfortunately the low power density nature of PS hybrid still limits total output to just 196PS. If this were the i-MMD or P2 style hybrid this system can easily get 240+PS.
 

Will1991

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They should have solved it by using a cooled EGR or something like that, since they’re (according to the press room readings) trying to reduce oil consumption, it should be easier to comply with regulations than using a hydrocarbon fuel.

2.71kWh is quite an improvement! It’s almost the double the capacity from current systems.

With that kind of energy and power, TMC can considerably reduce the HSD’s rubber band effect, even next to the 4th gen system.

Another thing, I was expecting the 2022 UX to be the facelift (it was launched in 2018 as a MY2019) but it didn’t happen.
Can this be the reason?
Can the MY2023 UX250h get this new system to improve efficiency?
It should be able to make it more efficient than the ES300h, which doesn’t happen right now according to EPA.
 
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qtb007

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I think this possibly means Toyota will offer power-optimized hybrids using the standard "low" compression ICE in the future for more product differentiation. For example NX350h and NX450h+ can get another 16PS from the A25-FKS while sacrificing fuel efficiency slightly.
I wonder if they are actually using the FKS in this Corolla Cross. Right now, the NX, Sienna, and Highlander all use the FXS while making an extra 37hp over the Camry hybrid and 26hp over the Rav4 hybrid. I would guess that the 5th gen hybrid and battery are responsible for the power increase.

I agree that Toyota could use the FKS instead of the FXS for a quick easy bump in power, but they've gotten the power bumps from 2018 Camry to 2019 Rav4 to 2020 Sienna/Highlander via battery and transmission/motor changes.
 

ssun30

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2.71kWh is quite an improvement! It’s almost the double the capacity from current systems.
I could have made a mistake. Toyota says the new battery is 40% lighter. The old unit is 56s1p 3.6Ah for 0.75kWh (yes this is their smallest hybrid battery, ever and smaller than some 48V MHV batteries). It's unlikely they increased energy density by 5 times.

I think they use much smaller cells (pouch instead of prismatic?) at 1360mAh each so total capacity is 4080mAh. So the total for 180 cells is 0.91kWh.

One frustrating thing about Toyota is they never say the reference point when claiming improvements. '40% reduction' means nothing. Compared to which old battery? NiMH or Li-ion? What's the reference weight?
 

Will1991

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You were right at the beginning:

image.png


From here: https://newsroom.toyota.eu/download/1112509/specification-corollacross.pdf

It's 180 cells (it should be 60s3p) @ 4.08Ah/3.7V

Please, Lexus, get this system into the UX.

As for the 40% weight reduction, I would say it's compared to the current 2.0L Hybrid system battery, the EV-MNR01 (NiMH, 180cells) but I can't find anything regarding battery pack weight.
 
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ssun30

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^^Someone did a teardown of the Prius battery pack. The 56-cell Li-ion pack weighs 54lbs/24.5kg. The 28-module NiMH pack weighs 80lbs/36kg. Corolla hybrid 2.0L uses the same pack design just with 2 extra modules so the weight is ~38kg. Using that as reference the new pack weighs ~50lbs/23kg.

It's unlikely a 23kg pack has 2.71kWh capacity. That's much higher energy density than PHV battery packs (Prius Prime has a 120kg 8.78kWh pack) and approaching energy density of BEVs. So I think my later calculation is right: 60*3.7V*1360mAh*3 = 222V*4.08Ah = 905Wh.
 

qtb007

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^^Someone did a teardown of the Prius battery pack. The 56-cell Li-ion pack weighs 54lbs/24.5kg. The 28-module NiMH pack weighs 80lbs/36kg. Corolla hybrid 2.0L uses the same pack design just with 2 extra modules so the weight is ~38kg. Using that as reference the new pack weighs ~50lbs/23kg.

It's unlikely a 23kg pack has 2.71kWh capacity. That's much higher energy density than PHV battery packs (Prius Prime has a 120kg 8.78kWh pack) and approaching energy density of BEVs. So I think my later calculation is right: 60*3.7V*1360mAh*3 = 222V*4.08Ah = 905Wh.
A 1kWh battery pack for 50lbs seems like a pretty great tradeoff. That would put a Corolla hatchback at ~3100lbs and 197hp with this new M20 5th gen hybrid. 45-50 mpg real world seems very likely with that setup, too. At that point, what's the purpose of offering the non-hybrid CVT version at all?
 
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A 1kWh battery pack for 50lbs seems like a pretty great tradeoff. That would put a Corolla hatchback at ~3100lbs and 197hp with this new M20 5th gen hybrid. 45-50 mpg real world seems very likely with that setup, too. At that point, what's the purpose of offering the non-hybrid CVT version at all?

Price, and simplicity. And the availability of a manual, in which the take rate isn't as low as we think for the hatchback.
 

qtb007

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Manual is a whole different discussion which is why I said "non-hybrid CVT" specifically. While I do enjoy my little 6MT Corolla HB, the gas mileage is not great due to driving in hilly terrain and half of my commute time is traffic. I think compact cars are the next segment to lose MT, TBH.

CVTs are generally pretty simple, but when you start adding launch gears and the ability to reverse, the eCVT is probably a wash compared to the CVT.

I'll give you price. Corolla buyers are definitely price sensitive which is why we will see the ZR hanging around.* Though, I could see them shooting for some economy of scale benefits and CAFE boost by making the Corolla hybrid across the board for next gen versus the current situation of 4 different drivetrains in the US -- 2ZR CVT, 2ZR hybrid, M20 CVT, M20 6MT. TBH, the dwindling Corolla numbers probably don't bode well for multiple drivetrain options when there is a clear efficiency and performance winner. With the NX we've seen 2 engines supply 4 very different drivetrains. I think that's the strategy for the near future.

*Speaking of price sensitive, I'm very curious to see how the NX 250 sells... especially AWD versions. You only save $2000 versus the NX 350 or NX 350h and that drivetrain is plucked right out of a low end Rav4. It's fine for a Rav4, but I'd have a hard time spending $39k and getting the A25 and 8AT.
 

spwolf

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A 1kWh battery pack for 50lbs seems like a pretty great tradeoff. That would put a Corolla hatchback at ~3100lbs and 197hp with this new M20 5th gen hybrid. 45-50 mpg real world seems very likely with that setup, too. At that point, what's the purpose of offering the non-hybrid CVT version at all?

it is always the price, right? But that is also just a weight of battery pack, without everything else needed for HSD to function.
 

spwolf

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News are coming next week!


Toyota Europe in their press briefing practically announced new platform - E3:

Toyota is planning a series of regional electrified models that will ride on a new platform scheduled to arrive after 2025. Known as the E3 (emotion, engagement, energy), the architecture will underpin hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and purely electric models that will be sold exclusively on the Old Continent.

The underpinnings will not be developed from scratch as the engineers will combine elements of the e-TNGA platform exclusive to EVs with the GA-C platform tailored to hybrid compact cars. Interestingly, Toyota Europe has ruled out the production of e-NTGA-based vehicles such as the recently unveiled bZ4X pictured here, which will be shipped from Japan starting with 2022.

Instead, it will create a new family of electrified models on the E3 architecture and these vehicles are going to be assembled at Toyota’s plants in Turkey and the United Kingdom. At these facilities, the Japanese brand is already putting together several compact cars utilizing the GA-C underpinnings. The new wave of hybrids, PHEVs, and EVs will do battle in the compact segment as part of the firm’s revamped portfolio.

This could be next CHR and Corolla basically. They are produced in Turkey and UK.
Also this is what Stellantis is doing with their EVs - difference being that Toyota can actually offer hybrids + plugins + EVs for same vehicle, where others dont have great hybrid tech to offer so they go to EVs right away.