Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[spwolf]

What really bugs me is their decision to build NiMH packs for hybrids in China. There is no logical reason to build the more expensive NiMH when China has the lowest materials cost for Li-ion. If there is any market where they could completely switch to Li-ion it should be China just for cost savings alone.

they consider them better overall and hence are willing to pay premium for them vs lions.

 

[Will1991]

This one (NiMH as a better alternative) was quite a surprise for me, but now I clearly understand a lot of sales decisions... Even with Li-ion returning a better fuel consumption....

 

[spwolf]

This one (NiMH as a better alternative) was quite a surprise for me, but now I clearly understand a lot of sales decisions... Even with Li-ion returning a better fuel consumption....

lion's do not return better fuel consumption... it is just that in some cars they were put in cheaper models without much equipment so less weight overall (not just battery, but also equipment cut) made it enough to post better numbers. They were also put into cheaper models because they are cheaper to produce for Toyota, as we see now with Lexus staying on nimh while cheaper Toyota models move to lion.

I guess putting cheaper lion's instead of nimh is not going to be a problem for Toyota, because market perceives them as better.

I wonder where the new 500k li-ion batteries are coming from though, as it does seem that from 2019 they will start doing at least 500k per year in li-ion batteries and still about the same 1.5m of nimh.

 

[peterharvey]

TMC has confused me.
How is the older NiMH tech better than the new Lions?

 

[ssun30]

TMC has confused me.
How is the older NiMH tech better than the new Lions?

That's what spwolf wants you to believe.

No NiMH is not superior to Li-ion. The only advantage is safety (though that alone is a good reason against Li-ion). In every other criteria it is worse than Li-ion period, including durability.

And Li-ion does improve efficiency not only because it saves weight, but also because Li-ion packs have lower impedance. Individual cells are comparable, but Li-ion packs use 1/3 the number of cells to achieve same voltage. This is also the reason why Li-ion is cheaper despite being more expensive on a single cell basis.

Lexus switched to Li-ion pack for their flagship hybrid system. Go figure why.

 

[carguy420]

Even though quite a few Teslas haved catch on fire they don't seem to suffer from any PR headaches, also their horrible build quality and their misleading "Autopilot" which is partially responsible for all those crashes.

 

[spwolf]

That's what spwolf wants you to believe.

No NiMH is not superior to Li-ion.

I dont sell nimh batteries, i dont want anyone to believe anything

I am just repeating what TMC has said recently on why are they putting li-ion batteries into cheaper vehicles, and yes it is likely because of safety and likely few other things they believe... they basically admitted li-ions are cheaper for them than nimh and that is why they are putting them into cheaper vehicles. And it does jive with the fact that previously they put them in barebone versions of hybrids.

As to the other reasons, we will likely keep finding them out in various interviews with TMC engineers next year, like we do now. Lots of hybrids being introduced, lots of possibilities for interviews.

 

[isanatori]

That's what spwolf wants you to believe.

No NiMH is not superior to Li-ion. The only advantage is safety (though that alone is a good reason against Li-ion). In every other criteria it is worse than Li-ion period, including durability.

And Li-ion does improve efficiency not only because it saves weight, but also because Li-ion packs have lower impedance. Individual cells are comparable, but Li-ion packs use 1/3 the number of cells to achieve same voltage. This is also the reason why Li-ion is cheaper despite being more expensive on a single cell basis.

Lexus switched to Li-ion pack for their flagship hybrid system. Go figure why.

Regardless of what anyone might believe, Toyota uses NiMH for a reason.
They use NIMH on Century which just blows any Lexus.
Lion doesn't make 500h faster than
GS450h. It's not really more efficient in real life.
Also you don't want to be near the 500h when the charger blows air to low the battery temp. It is that painful!

 

[ssun30]

Toyota uses NiMH for a reason.

That's what I said. Read my post again.

 

[carguy420]

Does anyone know how the awd system in the IS and GS works?

 

[GNS]

Does anyone know how the awd system in the IS and GS works?

I found this:

On the AWD models they use a full-time transfer differential.This transfer uses a planetary gear type limited slip center differential. A wet type multi-disc clutch is used as the center differential limiting device, and the silent chain is used for transferring driving force to the front wheels.This transfer also adopts the AWD control system. Based on driving conditions, this system optimally distributes driving force to the front and rear wheels. Distribution of the driving force is done by electronic control of the center differential limiting device.

So when driving on a smooth dry road you will have about 80% power to rear and 20% to front.

When you get into low traction the system can divide power up to 50/50 between front and rear.

The system also uses the traction control and ABS to keep traction, so let's say for example you get onto ice or mud, if one wheel is slipping not only will the transfer differential split power 50/50 but the car will also use the brakes to control wheel slip, so brake force is applied to the slipping wheels a needed to keep traction on the wheels that can grab. So basically, you can keep your foot on the gas in low traction control and the car will do what it needs to do in order to move. The throttle is also electronic on this car, so if needed to get traction the engine output is reduced. It is really interesting to experiment with these cars in low traction, I once got onto an icy hill with one of these, I felt a wheel try to slip, I floored the gas pedal and then car did all the work, the engine stayed at about 2,000 rpm as the abs cycled to switch power to the gripping wheels and the car slowly climbed the hill at about 5 mph.

 

[carguy420]

I found this:

Great find! I can't believe that Lexus didn't do much to advertise such a sophisticated awd system in the IS and GS.

Does the new Toyota Crown use the same system?

 

[GNS]

Note: the article I copied from says 20F/80R for the torque split but I believe it's actually 30F/70R.

The IS' AWD system is one of the reasons why I'm so interested in one. It appears to have been around for a long time so I'm sure the kinks have been worked out.

I also like that it's full time and not a clutch-only (ie. haldex) system. Using those planetary gears to apportion a default torque split also means that the clutch isn't under as much stress. I think that makes the system more predictable, and the clutch should last a very long time because I don't think the majority of driving scenarios require it to go 50F/50R.

 

[baysta]

Any speculation as to whether the 2020 4Runner refresh will receive an updated 1GR, a la 1GR-FKS, instead of the 2GR-FKS the Tacoma received, along with a 6AT or 8AT? Or do we anticipate carryover powertrains from the existing combinations of the current 4Runner 1GR-FE+5AT/Tacoma 2GR-FKS+6AT for MY2020, until the complete remodel in MY2023?

 

[ssun30]

Any speculation as to whether the 2020 4Runner refresh will receive an updated 1GR, a la 1GR-FKS, instead of the 2GR-FKS the Tacoma received, along with a 6AT or 8AT? Or do we anticipate carryover powertrains from the existing combinations of the current 4Runner 1GR-FE+5AT/Tacoma 2GR-FKS+6AT for MY2020, until the complete remodel in MY2023?

There's no point for them to develop a 1GR-FKS because there's no other vehicle to use it.

 

[3RZ]

Any speculation as to whether the 2020 4Runner refresh will receive an updated 1GR, a la 1GR-FKS, instead of the 2GR-FKS the Tacoma received, along with a 6AT or 8AT? Or do we anticipate carryover powertrains from the existing combinations of the current 4Runner 1GR-FE+5AT/Tacoma 2GR-FKS+6AT for MY2020, until the complete remodel in MY2023?

If I had to put money on it, bet on a 2GR-FKS and an 8sp Auto for the refreshed 4runner and Tacoma for 2020. The 1GR was a dedicated truck variant of the GR series and its torque curve will definatley be missed. As for future powertrains in 2023, our first clue will be what they throw in the 2020 highlander due out in a few months. A new corporate 2.4 turbo (A25A-FTS ?) may be the eventual GR replacement based on leaked 2020 IS350 specs.

 

[baysta]

If I had to put money on it, bet on a 2GR-FKS and an 8sp Auto for the refreshed 4runner and Tacoma for 2020. The 1GR was a dedicated truck variant of the GR series and its torque curve will definatley be missed. As for future powertrains in 2023, our first clue will be what they throw in the 2020 highlander due out in a few months. A new corporate 2.4 turbo (A25A-FTS ?) may be the eventual GR replacement based on leaked 2020 IS350 specs.

If that's the case, I hope the 8AT will fix some of the issues Taco owners have had about the 2GR-FKS+6AT gearing/power curve to make it a worthy upgrade, maybe an update to the engine itself would be nice as well, although I don't know what they could or would do to make it less anemic. It sucks that truck engines are getting smaller and relying on forced induction for power. I guess I'll have to leave a modernized 1GR in my dreams.

In any case, has a powertrain update been at least been tentatively confirmed for the vehicles being refreshed for MY2020(4Runner, Tacoma, etc.)?

 

[shizhi]

TNGA1.5L engine will produce in Guangzhou and Tianjin next year（2020.07）。The code for GTE is M15C。This inline 3-cylinder Gasoline Engine will take place of 8NR-FTS。
It will be equiped on corolla and levin in China。
a website from gte：https://www.gtec.com.cn/pcwz/pcww/xwzx_pc/qydt_pc/2018a/20181105/detail-3350.shtml

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

TNGA1.5L engine will produce in Guangzhou and Tianjin next year（2020.07）。The code for GTE is M15C。This inline 3-cylinder Gasoline Engine will take place of 8NR-FTS
It will be equiped on corolla and levin in China。
a website from gte：https://www.gtec.com.cn/pcwz/pcww/xwzx_pc/qydt_pc/2018a/20181105/detail-3350.shtml

If M20C is a Chinese-market variant of the M20A 2-liter, 4-cylinder naturally-aspirated engine, then it follows that M15C (if it's a 3-cylinder engine as shizhi and other rumors reported here suggest) is essentially 3/4 of the M20C, with the same bore x stroke in each roughly 500cc cylinder.

M15C and M20C are only the prefix of the engine codes. We would need to know the suffix to get the complete picture of these engines' specifications. Thus far, M20C (China) and M20A (rest of the world) have been revealed in FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) guises. Would we, at some point, see an M20A or M20C-FTS as a true, more direct replacement for the 8NR-FTS? Or if a turbocharged M15A or M15C-FTS would indeed be powerful enough to replace 8NR-FTS - a 2-liter, 4-cylinder turbocharged engine - then would there also eventually be FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) versions of the M15C for those more focused on fuel economy?

 

[3RZ]

If that's the case, I hope the 8AT will fix some of the issues Taco owners have had about the 2GR-FKS+6AT gearing/power curve to make it a worthy upgrade, maybe an update to the engine itself would be nice as well, although I don't know what they could or would do to make it less anemic. It sucks that truck engines are getting smaller and relying on forced induction for power. I guess I'll have to leave a modernized 1GR in my dreams.

In any case, has a powertrain update been at least been tentatively confirmed for the vehicles being refreshed for MY2020(4Runner, Tacoma, etc.)?

Nothing is confirmed except for apple car play but its highly likely we'll see an updated transmission. A shorter 1st gear would do wonders for the Tacoma and a 8 speed will definitely give them the flexibility to do that.