Official 5th Generation GS Thread: Returning with Hydrogen Power?

[internalaudit]

I will no longer be defending Lexus profitability after my terrible experience with my ES300h after just four months of ownership. If I were in USA I would be one of those owners who vote down their JD Power ratings.

Lexus heavily pushes its profits by aggressive cost cutting for ChDM where margins for luxury cars are much, much higher than in America. The likes of ES200 and NX200 are the reason why they are so successful. And they are playing a very dangerous game with their cost cutting (most infamously with use of subpar material in those '200' models) and immoral pricing. There will be a breaking point when people are no longer buying the 'made in Japan quality' argument and realize what they are actually buying.

Yes BBA are experts at doing shady stuff in China which is the reason I would buy zero product from them but they can afford to lose a lot of reputation compared to a 'second tier brand' like Lexus. I am terrified by whether they could maintain their reputation for quality while Genesis is improving at an incredible pace in every aspect except marketing. If you look at the JD Power reports their highest rated products are very very old and I am not sure if the same can be said for their newer products, especially when they are almost rushing out a full lineup in the next two or three years.

What issues have you encountered and what short cuts is Lexus employing for ChDM?

 

[mikeavelli]

Loving this conversation. It’s so good about to hop on my laptop instead of writing from the phone lol

 

[mikeavelli]

One thing I will add and I hope it doesn't come off as apologetic. Toyota/Lexus did move from Cali to Texas. That is monumental. It has caused a lot of movement, attrition and retirement. This clearly happened in the past decade and we continue to have aftershocks. So USA really is a different beast. I can only fathom how this affected product.

The second thing is, the USA is no longer the only game in town. Whereas resources and product were solely aimed for the USA, that is no longer the came from engines to products. Look at the Lexus LM and UX EV for example. Sales continue to climb globally and that is a different world compared to here. That makes it more difficult to decide where resources and products go.

Third, related to the second point, from my understanding Japan really is running things, not USA. Thus also the change to "lifestyle" with the LY and marketing efforts. I understand the reasoning, I attack the same way with many of my clients, but a core ingredient is product. Currently, a four door coupe or SUV is a lifestyle product. A Lexus RX is not no matter how you take photos in front the Taj Mahal.

Fourth with the talk about profitability, I haven't seen anything exact, just talk. The thing is for the USA where in the past people bought a Lexus, now they lease a Lexus. In the 1990's I don't even recall a lease program. Today all I see are lease programs. This is not exclusive to Lexus, this is industry wide. Thus companies are squeezed to turn a profit as consumers can nickel and dime dealers with all the data available on forums like this to websites like truecar. Whereas dealers easily made a profit, today not so much. This compounds the problem.

Thus fifth relates to four. You have dealers that want to make more profit and they see that through SUV's. We have heard they declined the RC convertible for the RX L. They want a Escalade sized SUV. Note we haven't heard dealers asking for F cars or more coupes. That is all driven from the manufacturer. So then when those cool products hit, they don't do as well.

Maybe I should apply for a job lol

 

[Levi]

I will no longer be defending Lexus profitability after my terrible experience with my ES300h after just four months of ownership. If I were in USA I would be one of those owners who vote down their JD Power ratings.

I am sorry for your negative experience. I hope the issue is sorted out and nothing else happens.

It is true I am worried about TMC's reliability, because if it is not there, there is then not much going for the brand. All other makers are improving hybrid tech and electrification and striving to improve reliabilty, at least under warranty/lease time. Nissan and Honda have fallen in reliability, Koreans are reaching top spots and Germans are improving.

 

[Gecko]

This is simply not true at all. Lexus has always brought dissapropriate amount of net income to TMC, this does not change when they have record sales just because they are cancelling car that was selling badly.

You are looking at it from enthusiast sense, which is fine... but at the end of the day, Lexus had a record sales year worldwide and Toyota as a whole had a record sales and profitability worldwide.

Lexus selling more cars and discontinuing slow selling ones, does not make them less profitable.

So this is probably the most annoying rumor of them all, something that truly irks me... "decade of mishaps and failures".

July 2019

Lexus Has Seen a Lot, Done a Lot in Its 30 Years

Toyota’s luxury brand entered the U.S. market as a mover and shaker, both with product and dealership customer service.

www.wardsauto.com

January 2020

Lexus retains crown as top franchise in NFDA survey

Lexus has emerged as the most highly rated franchise in the UK in the latest NFDA Dealer Attitude Survey Winter 2019. The survey, conducted in January 2020

www.motortrader.com

https://www.sslexus.com/blog/2019/j...global.toyota/en/newsroom/lexus/31171312.html

Toyota shares rise on $1.8bn buyback and record profits

Japanese group bucks headwinds that are slowing the global car industry

www.ft.com

- There are some more recent ones but hidden behind the Autonews paywall (New Toyota chief saying Lexus profitability is good but they need new models).

Because Toyota had a record profit year does not mean that Lexus is not losing money. Because Lexus dealers have historically been very profitable does not mean that Lexus as a company is profitable. Because Lexus has a good relationship with dealers does not mean they are filling their pockets with cash. These are all very different things as you are aware, and not necessarily related to Lexus' overall profitability as a business unit.

Of course you know that there are periods of extensive cash outlay for R&D followed by profit from those expenses when products are well received. You pay for expansion, new dealers, licensing and investing in new markets, and much more. I do not want to believe that Lexus is unprofitable because if that is true, it only spells trouble for the brand. I really mean that.

But what I also know is that where there is smoke, there is fire with Lexus and Toyota. Hearing from Johnny Lieberman is one thing. Hearing from employees that "Lexus is always an afterthought with strategic planning," and "Investment in dedicated Lexus models was/is cut because of poor overall performance," tells me there are real problems.

There is no sense in hashing out all of the company's mistakes over the last decade - and what their financial implications could be - it is well versed here. The bigger worry for me is what Lexus looks like in another 3-5 years with slow selling flagships and badge engineered Toyotas. I hear employees say that "around 2025" things will really start to be better... I am just not sure Lexus can wait that long and still bounce back.

 

[Gecko]

Rumor: Lexus GS Could Return with Hydrogen Electric Power​

A new rumor out of Australia suggests that the Lexus GS could return to the lineup sporting a next-generation hydrogen electric powertrain similar to the Toyota Mirai. Drive.com reports that a leaked – but now deleted – Lexus product roadmap showed the addition of a midsize sedan with a hydrogen powerplant.

As has been discussed at length on the Lexus Enthusiast forums, informed speculation suggests that the fifth-generation Lexus GS was killed late in its development as the market shifted to crossovers and the ES was elevated to take its place in the lineup. The development work that was done on the GS was then turned over to Toyota to use for the second-generation, hydrogen-powered Mirai. Could it be that the GS is back on again, using those Mirai roots?

We think there are a few things to consider with this rumor, though we would love to believe it. Most pressing is if it seems logical for the GS to return at all in a market that is rapidly abandoning passenger cars. Second, there has been much discussion about the excessive weight and packaging inefficiency of the Toyota/Lexus GA-N and GA-L platforms. Recent rumors suggest that Lexus is working on a revised rear-wheel drive architecture to succeed those two platforms because despite their stiffness and rigidity, their weight has proven to be problematic. If that’s true, it seems unlikely Lexus will develop the GA-N platform further. Third, with hydrogen still seen as a budding alternative fuel, the business case for such a vehicle would be quite small, and the second-generation Mirai moved significantly upmarket with rear-wheel drive, premium design and upscale features.

Even with all of that said, a fifth-generation GS returning to the lineup as a technological showcase for the brand is something we would certainly welcome if true.

https://lexusenthusiast.com/2021/07/06/rumor-lexus-gs-could-return-with-hydrogen-electric-power/

 

[maiaramdan]

So Lexus Mirai
I will love the idea and I will be from the first owners but unfortunately I live in Russia, Ukraine and Egypt where neither have any hydrogen station yet !

 

[b.ba]

Since the new Mirai is already coming to Australia, I'm not quite sure what Toyota has up its sleeve to differentiate the GS from the Mirai. As well all know, the Mirai already blurs the boundary between Toyota/Lexus...

 

[Alshamsi]

Do it, but please.. please do not name it the GS...

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Rumor: Lexus GS Could Return with Hydrogen Electric Power​

https://lexusenthusiast.com/2021/07/06/rumor-lexus-gs-could-return-with-hydrogen-electric-power/

🙄

 

[supra93]

How about they call it the HS, for Hydrogen Sedan 😛

 

[bogglo]

instead of just hydrogen maybe they should maket it the car that takes the fight to taycan/model S

 

[Tragic Bronson]

How about they call it the HS, for Hydrogen Sedan 😛

We all suddenly forgot about "Harmonious"

 

[Levi]

Don't know if it really is interesting. The new platform RWD platform has very inefficient space packaging, rear seat space is tiny for the size. The Mirai I was not a huge seller, I think Mirai II was just a "cheap" way of getting a second gen on the already developed gen GS. Maybe gen 5 was not canceled because of low sales exclusively, but because gen 5 was just not going to be good enough after seing how poorly LS gen 5 was doing. An extended facelift GS would not have added much, as it does for the IS which still is a cheaper car and Lexus' entry level.

A "performance" hydrogen "GS" would rather just be a development vehicle for sales. But a true sales product would be either a competitive HEV/PHEV or a BEV.

While I prefer RWD, the market is AWD. Rather than Lexus fooling around, I'd rather they make the ES a proper "GS" in quality with a good (p)/hybrid and turbo I4, and a proper BEV.

Again next gen IS will have a tough time if against a good ES too. If the rear seats will lack space, at that point a coupe is just as good (market says otherwise).

Don't know, Lexus clearly had strategy changes, but they look stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Will1991]

ES and GS have different segments... Even if size wise they're similar...

The ES is na amazing, comfortable, fuel efficient sedan… Making it perform in a similar way to the GS would bump its price considerably.

In my opinion, next gen IS is our best chance to get a new F sedan, with a PHV powertrain like what Mercedes is doing.

Another issue with FCEV’s, Lexus mentioned in 2016 they would have a production FCEV by 2020 (LF-FC CONCEPT HERALDS FUTURE LEXUS FUEL CELL FLAGSHIP SEDAN) saying things like:

- Adopting the Mobility Teammate Concept, which defines an overall approach to automated driving, it employs a similar system to the Highway Teammate Vehicle, which uses a stereo camera, five millimetre-wave radar and six LIDARs to monitor the vehicle surroundings in a 360 degree arc.

- T-shaped hydrogen tank running down the spine of the vehicle

- In profile, the slim glasshouse and sweeping roofline identify the LF-FC as a 4-door coupe

Image from here:


This sounds pretty much our Mirai II to be honest… Maybe they downscale some of the tech/power to make it a cheaper Toyota? Maybe this was indeed to be the 5GS but it was to be a FC since day one but due to the rear seat space (or something else) deemed non-Lexus?

Last time Lexus mentioned FCEV’s in a press release was more than one year ago, in the LF-30, in the LF-Z press release there is 0 information about FCV’s or hydrogen…

 

[Sulu]

How about they call it the HS, for Hydrogen Sedan 😛

You forgot that there already was a Lexus HS 250h, an unapologetically FWD-styled Hybrid Sedan that came before the ES 300h (and did not sell, which was why it was cancelled).

2010 Lexus HS 250h

I doubt that renaming the replacement for a successful RWD sports sedan by repurposing the name of a failed FWD hybrid sedan is seldom done by any automaker.

 

[Sulu]

ES and GS have different segments... Even if size wise they're similar...

The ES is na amazing, comfortable, fuel efficient sedan… Making it perform in a similar way to the GS would bump its price considerably.

The ES, despite being a mid-size sedan, has a larger interior than the GS, and the BMW 5-Series, Mercedes-Benz E-Class and Audi A6, which differentiates it against those sport sedans. The sports sedan GS did not sell against the Germans (and neither do other RWD luxury sports sedans) and transforming the ES to be more like the GS would probably kill the ES also.

In my opinion, next gen IS is our best chance to get a new F sedan, with a PHV powertrain like what Mercedes is doing.

I agree. Perhaps making the the IS a bit larger -- a tweener -- between the current compact IS and the mid-size GS, with a larger interior, but still small enough to be nimble and not seen as a direct competitor of the German mid-size sedans (nor the now-popular mid-size 2- and 3-row crossovers), is the solution.

 

[maiaramdan]

@Will1991 , LF-FC still for me the car that may changed the world map in TMC favor if it's turned to production as same way the LF-LC did to LC. It was spacious with no compromise, and the main issue for me is that Lexus take a lot of time to give us this failed current LS, that is longer than the previous from exterior and have less room interior than the previous N based GS, with not that great different in handling or noise cancelation from the 4 LS.

Lexus missed the opportunity by not giving us this LF-FC as the 5 LS!

 

[ssun30]

Again let's not get distracted from the fact that 184hp isn't 'ideal' for a GS or LS.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

This thread has been dead for over 2 years, but I found this commercial recommended to me on YouTube.

THIS is how Lexus was supposed to market their best driving car. In your face against the Germans, but so distinctly classy. The irony is that this commercial wasn't hyperbole in any way, the 4th generation GS was in fact better than all of them, and the only car that was on par or occasionally better than the GS was the Cadillac CTS. Even then, the one that everyone is lamenting the loss of isn't the CTS (partly because we have the smaller CT5), rather it's the GS.

If Lexus brings back the GS again, this is how they're supposed to market it, and they need to give it the constant love that other Lexus products receive.