maiaramdan

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I don't think so,

Whatever how much the top Accountant wants the money and stocks but I confess they never switch or play with the old names

If they want FF they won't put old FR name on it

If they want CUV/SUV they won't put old Sedan name on it and that obvious in Toyota than any other Automaker yes Nissan with Pathfinder, ford with Explorer and many other

Returning to the GS or the GS replacement I have a theory, if it will be GS, it will be like I said before, a mixed lineup from different eco tech and if it will be a total new replacement, it will be a 4 doors LC with only BEV & FCHV with no hybrid and no plug-in hybrid
 
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Just reading a lot of the news on the Net, especially concerning the health of Lexus and the other Japanese luxury brands, is the German brand cachet just too great to overcome nowadays given that the luxury car business is mostly lease (Goes for any brand, not just Lexus), where 'reliability' and JDPA quality awards don't mean as much as a subsidized lease. I understand that Lexus has made inroads in those other countries where they made gain like China, but the US market is just different.
 

mikeavelli

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Just reading a lot of the news on the Net, especially concerning the health of Lexus and the other Japanese luxury brands, is the German brand cachet just too great to overcome nowadays given that the luxury car business is mostly lease (Goes for any brand, not just Lexus), where 'reliability' and JDPA quality awards don't mean as much as a subsidized lease. I understand that Lexus has made inroads in those other countries where they made gain like China, but the US market is just different.
Yes I don't think you can really beat German panache. It also hurts Lexus when Acura/Infiniti are after thoughts at this point. Acura is really American. So Japanese luxury is basically Lexus. In comparison you have BMW, Benz, Audi, Porsche hell not to mention even companies like RUF, Novitec, ABT, who tune, build their own cars.

I still think Lexus has a sweet spot offering Japanese luxury as well as the best luxury hybrids still and something different with their F program. And they have done due diligence making sure Lexus staying in the top 1-3 or so with quality and reliability. It is one of the cores of the brand.

It's pretty obvious today that the Germans offering tiny 4 cylinder cars didn't really hurt prestige. They all did it. To their credit they balance it by offering a lot of products at the mid and top tier.
 

zeusus

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Did I "censor" his posts? Yes, there were multiple posts over a period of time that contained repeated expletives, threats of killing Lexus executives, and extremely personal attacks towards other members, namely @zeusus. This behavior is not tolerated. I, as well as other moderators, had discussions with F1 Silver Arrows over PM asking him to please tone down the rhetoric of these posts because that type of behavior is not allowed. This discussion did not sit well with him, and he decided to leave.
I'd like to make it clear that I don't mind people saying whatever they want, the mod edits have nothing to do with me. People who cannot control their tempers easily discredit themselves whether it be about harming Lexus execs or other members. We have to remember this is the internet, there will be opinions that don't mirror your own. No need to get violent.

As for @Carmaker1 and @F1 Silver Arrows , when I am talking to you, you will know it because I quote you directly, have in the past, and haven't planned on stopping. If you think you are the subject of my posts, perhaps that is a concern coming from inside your mind. As @Gecko knows, I'm not shy of quoting people directly and responding to them whether agree or disagree.

I think the forum is more fun and engaging when there are more discussions and active threads. After all, most of what is discussed about here are rumors and speculations anyway. One day something is true, the next day is fake, maybe 6 months later its true again. The immediate reaction to almost everything here is "Lexus sucks", I left CL to avoid that kind of Lexus hater culture and would be a shame if that became a full-time trend here. The clickbaity headlines don't help but I understand its needed to drive traffic.


Yes I don't think you can really beat German panache.

I still think Lexus has a sweet spot offering Japanese luxury as well as the best luxury hybrids still and something different with their F program. And they have done due diligence making sure Lexus staying in the top 1-3 or so with quality and reliability. It is one of the cores of the brand.
That point is often forgotten. I hope people keep it in mind when considering sales and how Lexus plans their lineup. Its definitely not your average Euro, one segment for every ice cream flavor. Its challenging to fulfill every enthusiast's wishes to be the most sporty, the most luxurious, the most spacious, and the high selling brand all at the same time. Even BMW and MB struggle juggling all that. The competitive environment is good for all car buyers though, there are some great products on the market.
 
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I'd like to make it clear that I don't mind people saying whatever they want, the mod edits have nothing to do with me. People who cannot control their tempers easily discredit themselves whether it be about harming Lexus execs or other members. We have to remember this is the internet, there will be opinions that don't mirror your own. No need to get violent.
And who said I can't control my tempers or I actually wanted to harm anyone? You also didn't even bother to read my latest responses have you? I said the reason I left wasn't necessarily because of you. I don't know what part of that you don't get. Some advice, whenever debating with someone, it's always good to fully read their responses before making a rebuttal. Just a tip.

I can control my tempers quite well. What I don't tolerate are people who call other people out in jest and expect no response from the person they call out. I gave a response, you didn't like it and you played the victim card. It wasn't me who tried to start being an edge lord, I just ended it. But looking at it in general, my responses have no sign that I am intolerant to other people's opinions nor does that mean I'm violent (like bruh it helps to read my responses because that's NOT what I meant at all). Plus, you're going down an argument that is absolutely irrelevant to the main issue at hand. My discussions with you, and me leaving the forums were mutually exclusive.

Plus, when you called me out that day, I wasn't even upset, angry, or used profane language like you or @Gecko have been insinuating I have been using previously. In fact, I was actually happy and celebrating that the mythical V8 that we have been talking about for years has finally surfaced. But what did you say in response? Unfortunately for you I have a sharp memory, and you said

This will only be shocking to knee-jerk reactionists which changes their mind about Lexus every time a new rumor comes out.
I think that's enough evidence to support my facts and shut this whole thing down once and for all.

Quit picking fights with people that you know you're going to lose.
 

mikeavelli

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I think the forum is more fun and engaging when there are more discussions and active threads. After all, most of what is discussed about here are rumors and speculations anyway. One day something is true, the next day is fake, maybe 6 months later its true again. The immediate reaction to almost everything here is "Lexus sucks", I left CL to avoid that kind of Lexus hater culture and would be a shame if that became a full-time trend here. The clickbaity headlines don't help but I understand its needed to drive traffic.
I think if you see it that way then you are looking for it that way. Ian has a new LS. Our household has a new LC and ES. There are others here with new products. I think that is important to keep the culture here going. It's not like other places where people drive old cars or trade to different brands than hang around to bash Lexus. That is utterly disrespectful and will destroy the culture. That is not to say having an older Lexus is bad. Not at all, but Lexus and any OEM is in it to sell new cars. And we do have many new owners here. I think that speaks volumes for the brand even with opportunities they have.

As maybe one of the most die-hard guys around, with a relationship with Lexus, I don't understand some moves they make. There are gaps I would like to see filled. But I am still a fan and most people here are still a fan. I'm still promoting the product and spreading the word because they are also very good people there. And we don't talk about it much but Lexus has proven to me personally they are safe vehicles.

I see it as rooting for your favorite sports team and hoping for some major trades, acquisitions, investment from the owners and a solid GM and Coaching staff. A lot of years might be tough but a fan is still a fan.

And the GS has long been my favorite player :)
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Oh my lord, but I saw this and didn't want to post it, but this points to end of production in less than 6 months. I don't know what to make of it.
It's sad, but I can't say I'm particularly surprised. I believe it. GS is currently built pretty much just for North America and Japan. The fact that it was moved out from the Tahara plant into Motomachi (which is set up for low-volume models like Lexus LFA and LC) speaks volumes about dwindling GS production and sales.

I think one way to square the circle would be to make the GS the premium trim level of the ES, like Buick's Avenir or Lincoln's Black Label. Give it a higher-quality interior than the top-spec current ES, AWD (mechanical with the LS's Torsen or E-Four) standard, and a sportier ECU setup (maybe even the V35A if it would fit?). It wouldn't be perfect, but Lexus is already not shy about special editions so this would seem to be a good fit.
We all have our pet peeves, sore spots and annoyances with Lexus product cadence and plans. And I certainly have a few. If I had to pick a single one that bothers me the most, it is how promises of 7ES being engineered and designed to be a worthy GS replacement as well will probably turn out to be B.S. It's certainly not impossible for a transverse-engined FWD platform to be engineered into a proper sports sedan via the application of an appropriately powerful engine for its size and weight and a performance-biased AWD system with torque vectoring and a limited-slip differential. Just ask Audi (S3, RS3, TT S, TT RS), Acura (TLX w/SH-AWD) and Mercedes (CLA 45 AMG). Instead we see AWD Toyota Camry and Avalon AWD available only with the relatively puny 4-cylinder engine because they built if off the 5th-gen RAV4 AWD system that can't fit a V6! And I'm now sadly convinced that the ES 250 trademark for North America is just reflecting the fact that the AWD ES will be similarly underpowered and not available with the 3.5-liter V6.

Frankly, the whole thing is either piss-poor planning on the part of Toyota/Lexus engineers, a reflection that the TNGA FWD architectures aren't as truly flexible as we were led to believe or just flat-out B.S. If TNGA-K can accommodate AWD with a V6 in the new non-hybrid Toyota Highlander and in the upcoming non-hybrid new Sienna, why can't it do so in at least the Lexus ES and Avalon, which are a bit larger than Camry and RAV4?
 

mikeavelli

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From about 2001, I recall that you were at the forefront of GS enthusiasm pre-F brand and during the peak generation II S160 era. You carried it over to L-finesse and were featured in a television show with your GS 450h (IIRC). One understands fully, very well written.

On a different note, I am very disappointed in Jaguar my former employer for failing to deliver on time and interrupting XJ production which had never been suspended during its first 51 years.

It will be redesigned, but now with interruptions. Wonder what happens with GS? I remember you mentioning in 2010 LC Coupe being in planning, then LF-LC surfaced, almost named SC, ultimately named LC.

By now it would have been great to have a sporty mid-level SC Coupe, on top of RC, and LC at the top. It never came to fruition because it grew into the LC only. That's okay.

If and when the GS or a replacement for it comes/comes back, one expects what exactly? A new focus, nameplate? Sports utility performance crossover?
Hey, thank you I appreciate that. I have dedicated half my life to being a Lexus Enthusiast and owner. At the time the GS was my dream car and I was fortuanate enough to have a 400/430 then pick up a 450h which I felt was ahead its time. My wife picked up a loaded GS F-SPort in 2013. Oddly I have never owned my first Lexus love, the first gen GS 300.

Funny you mention Jaguar. I feel the XJ never got its props for its solid powertrains, its digital dash and coupe like styline. Even the painted black C pillar was ahead its time. Crazy to think its gone for now. Before the Corona hit, I was actively looking at the XF Sportbrake certified as I feel they are a steal and I like it a ton (I really want a wagon to modify). I am still researching modifying it.

As to your last question, the ES and LS already look too similar and are closer in size than ever. The GS I think needs to move to a 5 door hatchback very coupe like style to really stand out. It needs to grow in size and luxury (standard pano roof etc). And yes maybe even a lifted GS-X which is all the rage. And it needs to be fast and efficient. I just think bringing the GS back as another 4 door would be tough. I think Audi with the A5/A7 etc has a nice standout with the hatch. Very useful with cargo room as well.
 

mikeavelli

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And I certainly have a few. If I had to pick a single one that bothers me the most, it is how promises of 7ES being engineered and designed to be a worthy GS replacement as well will probably turn out to be B.S.
Exactly. I can sum it up very easily. When we had the GS F-Sport, I would find any excuse to drive my wife's car. It was utterly SUPERB. It was a drivers car. Our ES F-Sport, while respectfully is the best driving ES, is absolutely nothing like the GS. It stays parked. I don't drive it. It also is missing some key things that make you scratch your head. Even my wife says she preferred driving the GS.

What is amazing about the ES is for most of the population, it is the perfect jack of all trades. It is crazy to think an ES is over 50 grand now. The interior is like a GS. There is way more room inside. It has better MPG.. Loaded the F-Sport is 52/53k vs 63/64k for a GS F-Sport (well before not sure how they are being packaged now). It handles good too and isn't nearly as boring or laggy as any previous ES. It also looks sensational.

This also entirely doesn't talk about the dealer issue. Salesman will push someone into a larger ES, that will lease less and say it has the same engine and is all new. They are not going to take the customer on a drive showing the GS is one hell of a driving car.

Thus my proposal it would need to be a 5 door and be completely distinct from the ES/LS to succeed in the future.
 

ssun30

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Just reading a lot of the news on the Net, especially concerning the health of Lexus and the other Japanese luxury brands, is the German brand cachet just too great to overcome nowadays given that the luxury car business is mostly lease (Goes for any brand, not just Lexus), where 'reliability' and JDPA quality awards don't mean as much as a subsidized lease. I understand that Lexus has made inroads in those other countries where they made gain like China, but the US market is just different.
That's because the economic environment in post-2008 United States is very unhealthy. People's spending behavior have been too irrational, taking unnecessary debt that heavily impact their financial security. It's just another debt bubble similar to 2008 all over again. Who benefit the most from this? Luxury car makers, especially those who don't care about long-term quality. And the result? Half of the population cannot afford a $400 surprise bill.

After the Coronavirus put world economy into another recession, people's spending behavior will become less irrational. No more 3 year leases (we all know that leases are objectively detrimental to one's financial situation), no more 84-month car loans, no more 70k pick-up trucks that people absolutely don't need. People will go back to buying more 'appliance-like' cars and keep them for longer periods. In hard times, you just want something to go to work with and care less about 'prestige' and 'gimmicks'.

I'm not basing this on our government's propaganda, economists in the West have long believed the debt-driven economic growth in the US is unsustainable.
 

mikeavelli

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That's because the economic environment in post-2008 United States is very unhealthy. People's spending behavior have been too irrational, taking unnecessary debt that heavily impact their financial security. It's just another debt bubble similar to 2008 all over again. Who benefit the most from this? Luxury car makers, especially those who don't care about long-term quality.

After the Coronavirus put world economy into another recession, people's spending behavior will become less irrational. No more 3 year leases (we all know that leases are objectively detrimental to one's financial situation), no more 84-month car loans, no more 70k pick-up trucks that people absolutely don't need. People will go back to buying more 'appliance-like' cars and keep them for longer periods. In hard times, you just want something to go to work with and care less about 'prestige' and 'gimmicks'.

I'm not basing this on our government's propaganda, economists in the West believe the debt-driven economic growth in the US has been unsustainable.
We already have companies here offering 84 months at 0% financing with 90 days for first payment. We just had ANOTHER bailout at the tune of 2 trillion dollars. We saw sales dip during the last worldwide recession but note how the big luxury brands kept most plans and moved forward and had huge years after. Note that Honda/Acura scaled back cause of that recession and are irrelevant today.

Also here in the USA, gas has dropped drastically. It was $1.55 for regular here in Atlanta. That means will will not drop SUV's or big trucks at all. Gas is too cheap and they will get them financed.

With technology changing constantly I don't see people keeping cars unless its a Tesla that you can update software. The current model everyone else has means people will want new cars as technology becomes obsolete in just a couple of years.

We also have ride-sharing which might continue to grow in popularity. Where people skip a car purchase and just use Uber etc....
 
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That's because the economic environment in post-2008 United States is very unhealthy. People's spending behavior have been too irrational, taking unnecessary debt that heavily impact their financial security. It's just another debt bubble similar to 2008 all over again. Who benefit the most from this? Luxury car makers, especially those who don't care about long-term quality. And the result? Half of the population cannot afford a $400 surprise bill.
Long term quality does not matter to American luxury car buyers, the majority of them who lease. Even most European cars do fine in 3 years time, so there are a very few surprise $888 repair bills, since there is a warranty during that time. These aren't usually people who are not financially challenged. There are much stricter guidelines to lease a car than purchase.
 

ssun30

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BTW recently I have got the honorable chance to try out one of the very rare (I heard it's single digit) GS-Fs in China. Those really dedicated enthusiasts import them for RMB 1.5M or $200k.

Best car I've driven in my life. I've never driven lots of performance cars but I'm comparing it to the likes of M4 C63 RS5 and Mustang V8. I see why so many enthusiasts on this site are so emotionally attached to it. It's just perfect.

If I live in U.S. I would by one without even thinking about it. Well, maybe pay a little more for the LC500.
 

Gecko

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Mod note: If there are any other personal discussions/disagreements from here forward, I will be locking this thread.
 
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The platform would be great, but need to change the sheet metal and body. Lexus needs to be radically different than Toyota.
 
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BTW recently I have got the honorable chance to try out one of the very rare (I heard it's single digit) GS-Fs in China. Those really dedicated enthusiasts import them for RMB 1.5M or $200k.

Best car I've driven in my life. I've never driven lots of performance cars but I'm comparing it to the likes of M4 C63 RS5 and Mustang V8. I see why so many enthusiasts on this site are so emotionally attached to it. It's just perfect.

If I live in U.S. I would by one without even thinking about it. Well, maybe pay a little more for the LC500.
I'd get that GSF first, since its days are counting down; the LC is so new at this point there will be more of them later to grab. If you can afford it, grab a newer ISF too, and a RCF as well. Buy all the F models.
 

mikeavelli

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BTW recently I have got the honorable chance to try out one of the very rare (I heard it's single digit) GS-Fs in China. Those really dedicated enthusiasts import them for RMB 1.5M or $200k.

Best car I've driven in my life. I've never driven lots of performance cars but I'm comparing it to the likes of M4 C63 RS5 and Mustang V8. I see why so many enthusiasts on this site are so emotionally attached to it. It's just perfect.

If I live in U.S. I would by one without even thinking about it. Well, maybe pay a little more for the LC500.
That is awesome. The GS F is one of the best driving cars at any price. It is absolutely fantastic.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I think if you see it that way then you are looking for it that way. Ian has a new LS. Our household has a new LC and ES. There are others here with new products. I think that is important to keep the culture here going. It's not like other places where people drive old cars or trade to different brands than hang around to bash Lexus. That is utterly disrespectful and will destroy the culture. That is not to say having an older Lexus is bad. Not at all, but Lexus and any OEM is in it to sell new cars. And we do have many new owners here. I think that speaks volumes for the brand even with opportunities they have.

As maybe one of the most die-hard guys around, with a relationship with Lexus, I don't understand some moves they make. There are gaps I would like to see filled. But I am still a fan and most people here are still a fan. I'm still promoting the product and spreading the word because they are also very good people there. And we don't talk about it much but Lexus has proven to me personally they are safe vehicles.

I see it as rooting for your favorite sports team and hoping for some major trades, acquisitions, investment from the owners and a solid GM and Coaching staff. A lot of years might be tough but a fan is still a fan.
I'm going to be honest - I've nearly quit the forum a few times recently because it's so relentlessly negative. I feel like I'm indirectly being called out for actually enjoying my LS some days. But I agree with everything you say - the sports analogy is especially apt for Vikings fans this off-season 😂
 
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