Will1991

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It's not my business but, I don't think this kinds of fights will takes us anywhere... Even more considering we're all here for the same exact reason, Lexus.

Yes we may look for all different kinds of things in Lexus cars but at the end of the day it's the same passion that brings us here regularly. I even bet @F1 Silver Arrows still keeps some hope alive regarding what's to come.

And I can speak against myself, because the way I think about Lexus also changes from time to time... I can't recall how many times I opened Tesla website and check the Model 3, a bit sad to honest for not being able afford a equivalent Lexus BEV... But, I'm still waiting since it only takes a small drive on my old Toyota to remember what's my passion, to remember what I want to achieve.

Nothing can be perfect to everyone, we all have different qualities to look up.

In my opinion, this is the best car forum. We're from all around the world, with all kind of different backgrounds and some of us with deep knowledge of what's to come. Our plurality of opinions brings a lot of good and rich of information arguments and I've already learn a lot from here.

I also don't have any doubt we all want Lexus to outperform, to keep improving over time and to thrive, it's the meaning of a enthusiast.
And at the end of the day, we're all a Lexus enthusiast (In a personal note, fueled by always remembering my parents having Toyota's).
 

Carmaker1

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All right, I'll bite too. There's a reason why I dropped off the face of the earth like @Carmaker1 and haven't posted here in ~4 months as well and I back him on his stance on Lexus' current condition as a organization.

Frankly speaking, I have lost complete and total interest into this godforsaken brand, and I genuinely mean it, there is not even a tiny shred of care left in me anymore for Lexus. Also remember how enthusiastic and positive of a person I was towards this brand, and when things were going poor, I was still one of the few who kept being optimistic. Not anymore though. Those days are over. I still stand by my point that Lexus' most interesting cars are the LC, LS, GS, IS and GS F.

There comes a point that when the company is totally out of touch with what the market and what enthusiasts (or regular customers?! Did Lexus just forget about their regular buyers who expect more?) want out of the brand and they're just pissing about doing their own thing, there is no wonder that people are running away from Lexus. No amount of good customer service and positive reputation will do any help if the product lineup is straight-up average. Hell, I think I may have overstated their lineup, it's worse than average. Another glaring point is that when you have a parent company who has their act together more than their flagship luxury brand, there is something seriously wrong with the organization.

When you have Toyota, Porsche and Mercedes-Benz for example, who answer to people and actually give a damn about their customer feedback and RESPONDS with a good and interesting product, sales go up, this is literal Business 101 (is it even 101? This should be common sense.). You guys want examples? Toyota with the Camry and Avalon TRD. Those things are selling so hot right now and many dealers are demanding for more to be built. Porsche with the re-introduction of the flat-six (albeit the new ones with the particulate filter sound nowhere near as good as the older flat-sixes) to slowly replace the garbage truck Subaru-sounding turbo flat-fours. Sales are going up again for Porsche (as if they weren't selling a lot already). What about Mercedes-Benz and their new 800 horsepower 73-Series AMG's?

Look at the sheer amount of technology and engineering excellence that goes into modern Mercedes-Benz vehicles for example, and you know what? The Germans are getting more and more reliable nowadays, and while Lexus is still obviously more reliable than the Germans, is it really worth it to get a Lexus over a Mercedes-Benz or a BMW at that point? Heck, Audi who lags 4th in sales have some interesting products with their A3, A4, A5, A6, Q8, TT, and R8 lineup. Lexus vehicles used to be really big challengers to the Germans, and now Genesis, a brand that I love to regularly sh*t on, now has built a GS competitor to the Germans and has done their RX competitor (GV80) the right way. AT LEAST they're doing way more than what Lexus is doing right now, and I'm going to give them credit for it.

When you are concerned for how a brand is doing as whole, and you see them shooting themselves in the foot by focusing on the wrong things, there comes a point where you just give the dumbasses the finger and give up on them. That's what I did, and I will stay this way until I actually see some life into this stupid brand that I foolishly fell for. Also, for the pillocks who believe this is Toyota's or Akio's fault, you're just allowing yourself to be insane and telling yourself lies that simply aren't true. Toyoda-san gave the guys at Lexus many chances and gave them so much attention only for the old fart Lexus executives to just piss on it and be petty. I would have kicked their asses to the curb, but eventually they will be gone. Also, y'all need to get outta here with those stupid "Toyoda-san being a playboy" bull like some people want to believe. When you have Lexus and their retarded dealers who whore the wrong cars to customers and are confused as all hell when there is actually an aspirational product in the showroom floor, there exists a fundamental problem at Lexus and NOBODY has tried to fix it either.

This next part goes out to @zeusus. People like you are what's wrong with this brand, and to a greater extent, this world. Last time around, you thought you had the balls (more like you thought you were edgy) to call me out and it fell flat on its face when I fired back. Well, you didn't have the balls to clap back because you damn well knew you were barking up the wrong tree. @Carmaker1 and I are people who were originally so damn passionate but even myself (I'll just single myself out here), as someone who is the most optimistic person ever and hopes that a brand can be competitive on the worlds stage doesn't see the brand that they love perform up to expectations time and time again, and I'll say this again, there comes a point where you just say "f*ck it, I'm outta here". You being complacent makes you a perfect candidate for a position as one of the brain-dead employees at Lexus because you're wanting to everything remaining as status-quo. In case you have a memory of a goldfish, Lexus did not operate like this to become the bestselling luxury brand out there, but now they are complacent (just like you are), so what gives?

@Carmaker1 mentioned this before. Toyota/Lexus represents the best out of Japan, so there is a natural expectation for them to perform. We aren't doom and gloom people either, rather we look at the facts and we base off our arguments based off of that. So please, go take your snide comments and your edginess and stick it up your rear end. If you can respond, go ahead, but at this point I muzzled you real good.

Hey @Gecko, I know I sound like a jerk right now, but despite us not commenting on here and being flat-out annoyed with this brand, we have been lurking and we have been seeing his comments. So I responded, because I have a right to defend myself.

Feel free to censor this one too.
Well written. One tries to be positive, but a time passes when some things can no longer be swallowed.

Just to let you know the person referring to some things Akio Toyoda playboy accusations might be me co-signing someone else's comments.😬

I think that the right person to lead this change and fix things is now there, but his efforts will take some time. Koji Sato has so much work to do and I hope his teams are willing to work with him to achieve the right vision.

This includes people at Toyota above him, because that right there has me puzzled, if they are the one vetoing potential possibilities or was it leaving Lexus to their own devices to do or die?

I will admit that I looked at the Infiniti situation where Nissan stifled the growth of the brand and I kind of mirrored the same concerns to Lexus presumptively.

Nissan made the decision to only invest in EV Infiniti products, however not as good as Tesla and a number of up-and-coming startups.

The Nissan brand is getting all the sole attention and I saw a serious concern in Toyota almost echoing the same thing with Lexus. I might be right or wrong, but something was definitely up.

It doesn't make sense that if some new Lexus products are online that a few people who are aware of what's coming are even dejected or not impressed. It just doesn't compute.

As for the communication situation here on this website. We are so used to the fact that when this was a blog, where we would generally comment through Disqus.

From time to time a few arguments would result, but they would be quickly sorted out.

As a forum starting in the mid-2010s, with the mystery of each new Spindle Grille fascia, advent of an incoming GSF and possibly new 6 cylinder incoming, possible IS-F and new 6 as well, resurgence of GX, possible LS-F and new lofty Next Generation LS, excitement over the latest RC coupe (& cabrio hopes) and new compact NX crossover, the LF-LC production guarantee, LF-FC signaling a segment disrupter, coming off of the high that was the LFA, and expected redesigns of RX and LX in 2015 & 2017, there was so much to hope for. And to top it off, misleading reports of a TX unibody crossover and credible reports of future modular architecture, there was again so much to be excited about.

When a lot of that dissipated and some of our aspirations and hopes for the brand not panning out, it was eventually going to come down like a stack of cards. Naturally happy-go-lucky members were going to get tired of being disappointed over and over.

And it really does not help when some of us very informed on some of these things come back with news or WTFs about what's coming.

The main core message and frustration with Lexus and a good amount of other brands is kicking things further down the pike.

Things are promised in a sense and then when the time comes, they do not arrive or leave one wanting for more. This is why I left Jaguar Land Rover when I did, because we started development of a new XJ sedan in 2010. When I noticed around 4 years ago where the program was going, I lost interest and left the company. I almost felt like I was getting Q45 vibes.

I also did not like where I knew the aspects of heavy handed cost cutting (see XE, F-Pace, etc) nor where the L663 program was going as a D90 owner at my UK estate. I have all but left Jaguar and Land Rover behind, despite my earning half of a million pounds in salary and benefits over a period of some years from that company and contributing to many products on the road.

I have never worked for Lexus themselves, but my older sister's love for the brand since youth and the greater respect for it amongst my family members and using Lexus big vehicles for chauffeuring or family hauling purposes, drew my attention from 1990s to present.

I was an Infiniti guy for a long time, until I got tired of them not delivering. Someone can see why I do take offense at anyone trying to imply I'm creating a hive mind and then tiptoeing around directly addressing my commentary, which insults my intelligence.

I am someone that has gone to school and earned three degrees, so I wasn't born yesterday and have a good grasp on this industry, even if I may not work for this company.

Lol...Interesting.

I let it go because for me its easy to not get emotionally involved in posting. I suggest we leave the past in the past but if you want me to respond, I'm capable but you probably won't like it, and would go into an emotional tailspin. Not a good look.

I will continue to speak my mind and voice competing views (often alone) to what seems like a (more than) plurality hive mind mentality here.

I wonder how much of a "Lexus Enthusiast" one really is, if the reason they refuse to participate in the forums is because their singular views are challenged. Life is challenging, cry me a river.... The diversity of opinions of people who are passionate about Lexus is what makes a forum. We don't need to be ideologically goose stepping as if some authoritarian military regime.

We have people who want more F, electric, sales, luxury, regional, etc... Everybody wants their piece of Lexus and I appreciate that. Despite being a minority opinion here on the forums, I stay on the playing field instead of taking my ball and stomping home.

That being said, I love the GS, drive the GS and very excited to see a new one, especially if it could be hydrogen powered. I question the reactionary responses and outcry because like some have mentioned, it appears to have made a lot of sense to have the GS since its technically already built. If Lexus executives can build a business case for the 5GS, great!
It would do very well for you to be directly addressing comments in response, than snidely tiptoeing around it so passive aggressively and condescendingly.

It is very discomforting (in this civil environment) and plainly insulting to be taken out of context and described as if I am a petulant teenager, with no iota of industry experience nor expertise.

What I have noticed is quite a number of times in your commentary, in which you essentially malign the composure and maturity of members on this site. That's not acceptable, I have never done that to anyone and neither should you. Such personal attacks are not really welcome here.

When other people disagree with my opinions, they do not go there the way a very, very small few have on here in such passive aggressive manners. I can only recall one other person that has described my viewpoints in the manner that you have.

I had been very shocked any of it was even coming from you in the first place considering that you have reached out to me in PM before in a polite manner.

Stuff like this is why I don't bother dealing with Club Lexus at all because of the negative atmosphere and insufferable circle jerk it has become of the same players over and over.

I already deal with enough chaos at work and working from home now, to be adding more to my plate. I hardly believe it is a hive mind here anyway, as very few people have challenged your commentary, in order to maintain a civil commenting atmosphere.

It is good to hear of your viewpoint on what you want for the GS, because I was hoping for this info to be new information that was credible. I am very disappointed over what it really is, in someone regurgitating Lexus Enthusiast's own info right back to them. This site works very hard to be very credible and I hate when anyone taints that, including myself and my own poor predictions.
 
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maiaramdan

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Honestly I was shocked but somehow @F1 Silver Arrows, said my concern about the brand then @Carmaker1 increases my worries

Koji Sato is enthusiastic more than the most among us, the real problem will always be on the economy guys not the engineers

Maybe Koji San is the twist we all looking for

And from my personal experience Lexus needs to change most of their current dealerships, they keep promoting the ES / RX very much with insulting ways and this is I faced especially in NA and EU market, which I experienced the total opposite in Russia and ME markets.

In both Russia & ME when you enter the dealership the first thing you will notice is the flagships and FR even in Egypt , even if they are selling the ES with the LS & LX but you will always see LX & / or LS, they gave you the ES option as if they are sad to give to you, I swear talking to someone inside one of the dealership in the Gulf area and he told me by word " Sir, please don't take ES or RX they are just luxed Toyota, you have the IS or GS or GX if you want the small to mid ".

In NA and I was lived in MA I went to the dealer and he insisted on the ES as if he want to say to me either ES or go to another dealer !!!.

The dealers in NA / EU are crazy insane about keep promoting only FF and you may see in their eyes the look of I am stupid if I choose IS / RC or GS
 
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Lol...Interesting.

I let it go because for me its easy to not get emotionally involved in posting. I suggest we leave the past in the past but if you want me to respond, I'm capable but you probably won't like it, and would go into an emotional tailspin. Not a good look.
LOL. Same for me, which is why I left these forums in the first place, but it wasn't because of you necessarily, but because of how a moderator (they know who they are) acted. And there have been people who reached back to me wondering where I've been.

I wonder how much of a "Lexus Enthusiast" one really is, if the reason they refuse to participate in the forums is because their singular views are challenged.
Who says I mind a spirited discussion? I live for people to tell me their point of views about important issues and we can start a discussion from there, even if it's opposing my views. Literally the reason why I left was because the moderator that I have been mentioning has been censoring my opinions. They did it time and time again and out of sheer annoyance I made the decision that it was better for me to leave the forums rather than being angry at the moderator in question. I took a different road.

I will continue to speak my mind and voice competing views (often alone) to what seems like a (more than) plurality hive mind mentality here.
Making snide and edgy comments IS NOT speaking your mind and voicing competing views and if you seriously think I am fragile enough to leave because of snide comments then you can't be any more incorrect.

I can take the flack and criticism, I don't break as easy as you think I do. I'm not someone who throws a fit or a tantrum because someone is telling me what they think or see something different than I do because I f*cking respect that, and I'm not intolerant to others. I'm literally the opposite of what you're describing. As I said, I go off of the facts and the fact is that Lexus is slagging real hard. Now you can strongly disagree to that and express deeply what you're feeling and how I am potentially damned incorrect, but when you continuously make snide comments even AFTER these people (me and @Carmaker1) left the forums, it seems like you still are sore about before.

I rest my case.
 
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Carmaker1

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Honestly I was shocked but somehow @F1 Silver Arrows, said my concern about the brand then @Carmaker1 increases my worries

Koji Sato is enthusiastic more than the most among us, the real problem will always be on the economy guys not the engineers

Maybe Koji San is the twist we all looking for

And from my personal experience Lexus needs to change most of their current dealerships, they keep promoting the ES / RX very much with insulting ways and this is I faced especially in NA and EU market, which I experienced the total opposite in Russia and ME markets.

In both Russia & ME when you enter the dealership the first thing you will notice is the flagships and FR even in Egypt , even if they are selling the ES with the LS & LX but you will always see LX & / or LS, they gave you the ES option as if they are sad to give to you, I swear talking to someone inside one of the dealership in the Gulf area and he told me by word " Sir, please don't take ES or RX they are just luxed Toyota, you have the IS or GS or GX if you want the small to mid ".

In NA and I was lived in MA I went to the dealer and he insisted on the ES as if he want to say to me either ES or go to another dealer !!!.

The dealers in NA / EU are crazy insane about keep promoting only FF and you may see in their eyes the look of I am stupid if I choose IS / RC or GS
And this seems to be the major problem. It has to be even-handed in sales approach and it's not across the model line. People I know who bought LS-models have lost interest and gone to other brands.

Another relatively wealthy aunt of mine leased a GS 450h to her business at the end of the lease she didn't like what she saw in 2016 and went with a Cayenne Turbo S. Why doesn't she want an RX or another GS? Didn't feel it was anything special and that the GS was not improved enough for her to get another one.

She wanted something different. Several longtime LS buyers ended up going for other brands or the LX.

I have a big issue with the Lexus dealer body in the United States the company's largest market in a sense.

These salesmen are just thinking about easy commission to get and nothing more. Why are they having such a hard time making the case for buying their OTHER models against their competition?

Why is it so hard to sell a GS to a customer, without involving the ES right off the bat? Why is the rear legroom in the IS so horrible and off-putting to so many people?

Is very clear about the Gulf and Northwest Asian/East European dealers know which products they are supposed to be marketing and not forgetting about them, unlike other regions which fail to understand the concept of down selling, after when nothing else will meet a customer's desires or price ceiling.

Mercedes-Benz has understood this and act accordingly. If an S-Class is too much for you, you try out E Class. If not that, how about a C-Class?

However I can imagine to the real story is that to the average driver, the ES is such a good sale. Spacious, affordable and stylish the last 2 generations. ES has always been a stylish design, save for haphazard faux Gen 1 and clunky & bulbous XV30 of 2001-04 fixed in 2004.

I just wish that Lexus dealers did not make it harder for other models to sell. If my aunt had listened to her dealer, she wouldn't have gotten a GS 450h. They often look at buyers like her and automatically assume it's what she needs. She wanted something a little bit more special and got a GS. What does Lexus want their brand to be?

autocorrect and voice attack (I said voice to text) seems to drive me nuts because of how my text is so misconstrued by it, as seen by example in italics.
 
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Carmaker1

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LOL. Same for me, which is why I left these forums in the first place, but it wasn't because of you necessarily, but because of how a moderator (they know who they are) acted. And there have been people who reached back to me wondering where I've been.



Who says I mind a spirited discussion? I live for people to tell me their point of views about important issues and we can start a discussion from there, even if it's opposing my views. Literally the reason why I left was because the moderator that I have been mentioning has been censoring my opinions. They did it time and time again and out of sheer annoyance I made the decision that it was better for me to leave the forums rather than being angry at the moderator in question. I took a different road.



Making snide and edgy comments IS NOT speaking your mind and voicing competing views and if you seriously think I am fragile enough to leave because of snide comments then you can't be any more incorrect.

I can take the flack and criticism, I don't break as easy as you think I do. I'm not someone who throws a fit or a tantrum because someone is telling me what they think or see something different than I do because I f*cking respect that, and I'm not intolerant to others. I'm literally the opposite of what you're describing. As I said, I go off of the facts and the fact is that Lexus is slagging real hard. Now you can strongly disagree to that and express deeply what you're feeling and how I am potentially damned incorrect, but when you continuously make snide comments even AFTER these people (me and @Carmaker1) left the forums, it seems like you still are sore about before.

I rest my case.
Precisely my idea is to avoid confrontation or further corrupting an information stream as much as I can, therefore I will stop posting on the forum in most cases to avoid that. If this was any other forum, I would've nipped that in the bud a long time ago. The environment here is extremely innocent and civil, most of us never want to ruin it or "take it there".

This has been a point of contention that I have not said anything about for a long time, so it's why I voiced it now, to end any strife once and for all and defend myself.

We are indeed frustrated with personnel (not each other) who "managed" (more like mismanaged) Lexus much of the 2010s. The new people just might turn things around or build on current strengths hopefully. I expect a 3-5 year lead time on Koji Sato influences. It's just the nature of the game.

-You have to begin planning a program at -5 or -4 years.

-Put designers and pre-program engineers to work for 1 or 2 years.

-Settle on package plan and final body design at -2 or -3 years

-Prototype and engineer starting at -2 years

-Sign off at ~-1 yrs to production

-Launch vehicles at 0 years to Job 1/cust. deliveries.

Koji can hardly affect anything entering the prototype phase, pointing towards MY 2023-24 being the earliest for him.

I ideally think it is good for them to not be further kicking things down the pike ever so often and then what was 2017 becomes 2020 or becomes 2022 or 2025. A huge amount of frustration here is coming from that at least for me.

One thing is for certain, Toyota needs to develop the Lexus brand to the point it is almost an independent company and not an appendage of Toyota. They don't seem to want to do that, because it does not fit their business case at the end of the day, even though they've pretended that's their intention.
 

Will1991

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@Carmaker1 , maybe he can't do a lot for upcoming models until 2023 (at best) from a early prototype phase but he surely can do a lot for current ones.

Some quickly come to mind:
-> ES AWD/e-AWD, this one should be ASAP
-> V8 for the LS, a facelift should be coming and it's the perfect time, even the 2UR-GSE would be nice
-> LC F, just launch it...

This should be inexpensive and quick implementations, even the LC F should be more than production ready by now.

As a side note, I'm sure building a car from scratch with tight budgets, some crazy timelines and mind-boggling decisions upstream brings some sleepless nights but it sure sounds like you've an amazing job!
 

Carmaker1

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@Carmaker1 , maybe he can't do a lot for upcoming models until 2023 (at best) from a early prototype phase but he surely can do a lot for current ones.

Some quickly come to mind:
-> ES AWD/e-AWD, this one should be ASAP
-> V8 for the LS, a facelift should be coming and it's the perfect time, even the 2UR-GSE would be nice
-> LC F, just launch it...

This should be inexpensive and quick implementations, even the LC F should be more than production ready by now.

As a side note, I'm sure building a car from scratch with tight budgets, some crazy timelines and mind-boggling decisions upstream brings some sleepless nights but it sure sounds like you've an amazing job!
Hi, I think that some of those listed might be a little too late for his overwhelming influence & direction, if due on the production line within under 18 months.

If there is an ES AWD planned, if wouldn't come later than MY 2022 or 2022.5. V8 LS, has to be sooner than later. Slightly more autonomous Lexus, can and would've decided, how long XF50 will run. Will it be a production run of December 2017 to 2023/24 or will they extend it to increase their ROI to an 8-9 year cycle?

LC-F and LC have to be extremely instrumental in Sato's promotion for certain. Heading an important vanity project like that has immense benefits long term. He definitely has a hand in that car already and is just in a higher position to finish it up.

In fact, did Akio Toyoda (and allies) actually promote him with the purpose of improving Lexus and also protecting LC-F from a more disenchanted Lexus head from sending it to the cutting room floor?

Right now the first prototypes (including advanced stage mules in previous gen bodies) being assembled now, would be 2023 model year Lexus vehicles. 2022 models would've got off ground several months ago and 2021 models sometime in 2018.

Coming in and ordering the fine tuning of some aspects of an upcoming program during prototyping is possible, but without delays? Mostly unlikely for major changes, but feasible for small ones depending on significance.

Changing powertrain and putting more into it, will almost always cause a delay. Asking to make a car drive a little better via suspension changes, could be accommodated right now for a 2022 MY as program development sign off hasn't occurred and is many months away.

For a 2023, there is a lot more leeway with decision making, since the majority are 30 months away, but he wouldn't have been there during the planning phase for most '23 Lexus vehicles.

2024 models have him being there before ful fledged vehicle engineering program starts and also maybe overseeing some aspects of pre-program planning, but definitely not all of it.

2025 MY cars are basically beginning planning, some one year into it already. Lots of influence over program direction from Sato perspective.

2026 MY Lexus vehicles, are 99% under his full control for the near future, with project leaders working under him.

2021MY Lexus models have little to no influence nor guidance from him. All too far along.

As for me, I'm fine lol. Thank you, but let's just say the Sequoia has some improved aluminum competition at the BO for 2022 and 3/4 tons are coming along fine too. ;)
 
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Gecko

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A few quick notes:

Regarding the GS, I have not commented because I know it's not coming and the "beefed up Mirai" spin was clickbait. Between Mirai, LS, ES and Crown, there is really no room for GS anywhere in the world. Toyota made this decision and it is final. Let's start hoping the next gen ES comes with a BEV powertrain, torque vectoring AWD and/or in-wheel electric motors. If that happens, nobody will care about the demise of the GS, myself included.

Second, @F1 Silver Arrows post on the last page was great, and I am glad to see his passion and perspective here. Since he has also gone out of his way in the last two pages to insinuate that he is being Big Brother'ed on Lexus Enthusiast, I would like to be very clear about something: Whether or not I agree or disagree with any of you, my role as an admin on this forum is to be sure that people here are treated with respect, the rules are followed, and we are not personally attacking each other.

Did I "censor" his posts? Yes, there were multiple posts over a period of time that contained repeated expletives, threats of killing Lexus executives, and extremely personal attacks towards other members, namely @zeusus. This behavior is not tolerated. I, as well as other moderators, had discussions with F1 Silver Arrows over PM asking him to please tone down the rhetoric of these posts because that type of behavior is not allowed. This discussion did not sit well with him, and he decided to leave.

While I generally agree with F1's POV about Lexus and disagree greatly with zeus, I (1) have a responsibility to make sure that everyone here conducts themselves in a way that fosters respect and community (2) disagree with zeus very often, but try to do it in a way that respects - but challenges - his POV without resorting to personal attacks. That is how disagreements on this forum are handled 99% of the time, thankfully. If members have a problem with this or do not act accordingly, they will be hearing from the moderator and admin staff.

So, F1 Silver Arrows, again, it is great to have you back. Looking forward to your passion, spirited debates and perspective while still respecting our other members.
 

internalaudit

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True. I would be willing to go for a slightly larger BEV ES with Lexus torque vectoring (the Toyota version on the 5th gen RAV4 is apparently weak sauce and very subtle) and front double wishbone suspension the IS/GS/LS? have even if the IS dimension is fine for my household.

I think with electric motor torque vectoring, any BEV (all seem quite heavy) will feel much more spirited and nimble. I probably wouldn't go for a BEV without one as long as my ICEV and HEVs are chugging along fine.
 

CRSKTN

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Just upsize the IS a bit, the 3 series has been doing their own version of it by building it out to be a higher end, but more compact offering (relative to 5 and 7 series). Take the price point up a little bit, start eating into the GS market. Let the UX and the Yaris-derived product coming to absorb entry level buyers. A half step "goal" vehicle for entry level buyers that isn't also a corporate car (the ES), might serve the lineup well.

I like the idea of small != cheap.
 

mikeavelli

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This so-called leaked doc is not credible information. It reads way too familiar to me and the information involved never said that. I wish that OTHER media would not just pick up on anything anyhow and play with people for clicks.

Even the powertrain of the next BRZ and 86 has yet to be confirmed and Motor1 tossed that in to sell their article.. Really frustrating to read and see what they are all doing. The only thing I can hope is that Toyota sees all this backlash and cares to at least keep the GS alive and plan. Highly unlikely I imagine, but one hopes.
Hey unfortunately it seems you might be right... the Toyota stuff seems accurate (there is a pic taken from the dealer meeting backing up the article) but this GS stuff seems like it was made up. In my excitement for a GS I posted quickly.

From what I'm hearing it seems the GS is on its last legs. It hurts, this is personal for me.
 

mikeavelli

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And guys can we all chill out a bit. I really don't feel like being a moderator and start moderating, we got bigger fish to fry currently as we all battle COVID-19 together. I understand some of us are super passionate and I also understand some of us are a bit disappointed in the current lineup but we can treat each other with respect and not take things personally.
 

mikeavelli

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The GS is personal for me. Super personal. I'll never forget falling in love with seeing an all black 1993. I'll never forget "Something Wicked This Way Comes" and seeing those quad lamps. I owned a GS 400 and 430. The GS 450h was ahead of its time and my third GS. My wife owned a loaded GS F-Sport when it debuted. I still toy with getting a GS F as a daily.

If it was not for the GS, I would not be here today. That car changed my life. It is near and dear to my heart. Seeing it dying like this hurts.

We have a loaded ES F-Sport and it cannot hold a candle to the way the GS drives. It is a night and day difference. Yes its roomier and IMO better looking but it will never make my heart flutter like a GS does.

It will be very hard for me to understand and accept that Toyota gets a RWD, Hydrogen, beautiful inside and out sport sedan and Lexus is left with the ES and no GS. And the media and car enthusiasts will have a field day with it.
 

Carmaker1

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Hey unfortunately it seems you might be right... the Toyota stuff seems accurate (there is a pic taken from the dealer meeting backing up the article) but this GS stuff seems like it was made up. In my excitement for a GS I posted quickly.

From what I'm hearing it seems the GS is on its last legs. It hurts, this is personal for me.
Oh my lord, but I saw this and didn't want to post it, but this points to end of production in less than 6 months. I don't know what to make of it.

 

Carmaker1

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The GS is personal for me. Super personal. I'll never forget falling in love with seeing an all black 1993. I'll never forget "Something Wicked This Way Comes" and seeing those quad lamps. I owned a GS 400 and 430. The GS 450h was ahead of its time and my third GS. My wife owned a loaded GS F-Sport when it debuted. I still toy with getting a GS F as a daily.

If it was not for the GS, I would not be here today. That car changed my life. It is near and dear to my heart. Seeing it dying like this hurts.

We have a loaded ES F-Sport and it cannot hold a candle to the way the GS drives. It is a night and day difference. Yes its roomier and IMO better looking but it will never make my heart flutter like a GS does.

It will be very hard for me to understand and accept that Toyota gets a RWD, Hydrogen, beautiful inside and out sport sedan and Lexus is left with the ES and no GS. And the media and car enthusiasts will have a field day with it.
From about 2001, I recall that you were at the forefront of GS enthusiasm pre-F brand and during the peak generation II S160 era. You carried it over to L-finesse and were featured in a television show with your GS 450h (IIRC). One understands fully, very well written.

On a different note, I am very disappointed in Jaguar my former employer for failing to deliver on time and interrupting XJ production which had never been suspended during its first 51 years.

It will be redesigned, but now with interruptions. Wonder what happens with GS? I remember you mentioning in 2010 LC Coupe being in planning, then LF-LC surfaced, almost named SC, ultimately named LC.

By now it would have been great to have a sporty mid-level SC Coupe, on top of RC, and LC at the top. It never came to fruition because it grew into the LC only. That's okay.

If and when the GS or a replacement for it comes/comes back, one expects what exactly? A new focus, nameplate? Sports utility performance crossover?
 

Ian Schmidt

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If and when the GS or a replacement for it comes/comes back, one expects what exactly? A new focus, nameplate? Sports utility performance crossover?
I think one way to square the circle would be to make the GS the premium trim level of the ES, like Buick's Avenir or Lincoln's Black Label. Give it a higher-quality interior than the top-spec current ES, AWD (mechanical with the LS's Torsen or E-Four) standard, and a sportier ECU setup (maybe even the V35A if it would fit?). It wouldn't be perfect, but Lexus is already not shy about special editions so this would seem to be a good fit.
 
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Second, @F1 Silver Arrows post on the last page was great, and I am glad to see his passion and perspective here. Since he has also gone out of his way in the last two pages to insinuate that he is being Big Brother'ed on Lexus Enthusiast, I would like to be very clear about something: Whether or not I agree or disagree with any of you, my role as an admin on this forum is to be sure that people here are treated with respect, the rules are followed, and we are not personally attacking each other.

Did I "censor" his posts? Yes, there were multiple posts over a period of time that contained repeated expletives, threats of killing Lexus executives, and extremely personal attacks towards other members, namely @zeusus. This behavior is not tolerated. I, as well as other moderators, had discussions with F1 Silver Arrows over PM asking him to please tone down the rhetoric of these posts because that type of behavior is not allowed. This discussion did not sit well with him, and he decided to leave.

While I generally agree with F1's POV about Lexus and disagree greatly with zeus, I (1) have a responsibility to make sure that everyone here conducts themselves in a way that fosters respect and community (2) disagree with zeus very often, but try to do it in a way that respects - but challenges - his POV without resorting to personal attacks. That is how disagreements on this forum are handled 99% of the time, thankfully. If members have a problem with this or do not act accordingly, they will be hearing from the moderator and admin staff.

So, F1 Silver Arrows, again, it is great to have you back. Looking forward to your passion, spirited debates and perspective while still respecting our other members.
Okay first of all, I didn't actually mean for someone to die. My anger at them is a "what the hell are they doing" kind of anger and like "you're damn useless and are braindead". When I said "shot and or killed" for some of the idiot executives at Lexus I mean they need a serious a**-whooping. It's actually a popular saying in the business world where people use that phrase when someone makes an unbelievably stupid decision that you would never think that they would make and leaves you still. More importantly, I've only used that term once and it wasn't something that came out frequently.

One of my favorite car reviewers, Jason Cammisa, used this exact phrase in this manner. To preface what I am about to quote, he was pissed off how BMW's manual transmission in the M2 does not have the ability to shut off rev-matching. "Someone needs to be shot and or killed for this... To shut off rev-matching, you'd have to shut off the STABILITY CONTROL which is the most important invention since the seatbelt. So if I want to shift a manual transmission, the way a manual transmission is designed to be, I have to risk dying". Mind you, Jason isn't a psychopath (he may be a little cray) to ACTUALLY wish death upon somebody. I used "shot and or killed" to those dumbass Lexus executives in the same manner because they are literally sabotaging a brand just because they're petulant jerks, I don't actually mean killing them rather if I was the CEO, I'd just kick them to the curb for not complying.

As for the swearing, I've toned that down because as I left these forums and I'm not as pissed off anymore from seeing the lack of progress with this godforsaken brand.

By the way, I'll have you know that I never started these personal attacks out of my own volition, they were always in response to people attacking me. I'm not as trigger-happy as you think I am, but if someone thinks they can start sh*t and run away with it, I wasn't going to let it slide.

Also since now we're coming clean, when I fired back at @zeusus I never said anything vile to them. I just said "you need to watch it" and you immediately censored it. There was no swearing, no threats, no nothing, just me dishing a clap back.

I had the right to be pissed off.
 
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