Levi

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i propose it has million hp, if 650 is not enough.
You find it funny, but that is just a marketing fact. Good luck changing game and reverse manipulating the brains. Unless going forward something changes, Lexus will be further away from the Germans in the coming years. That is not to say Lexus will end like Acura or Infiniti, they may very well be succsessful as we see, but the target group that is interested in performance might not be very interested in Lexus, rather those interested in Lexus will choose a little more performance, of which the GS is a good example, it is little more performance enough for Lexus buyer or others for whom it is sufficient, but not enough for those looking at German performance levels.

I am saying that, especially with regards to the European market, where there too are car youtubers. Young adults/adolescents wathc the supercars and performance cars of these 'nouveau-riche' and they are fed with RS, AMG, M, Porsche. That is what they feel is the car to have, and they'll get it soon even if it is a 318i or A4 20 FSI. Nowhere to they hear of Lexus F.

Yes it is basic, old technique, but it works every time. VAG is a huge company that has expanded in every niche, TMC does well, they have a different expanssion, but they did not expand as much as they could. Lotus was a lost opportunity IMO, so as Aston Martin (yet I can forgive that, culturally it looks difficult to make business with the Brits and BMW got two very easy to market brands, that is smart).

If Lexus want to take their route, they can, but will then never be compared to the German, which is fine, but then they have to continue pursuing their strategy a find a way not to be compared to them, because people still do compare and arrive to the conclusion that Lexus is inferior, except for reliabilty, in which case the Germans have improved and are acceptable, yet they (the customers) do not care because they lease.

Lexus (and Acura and Infiniti) had to aggressively market their performance brands in the NA market, only there it could take off and than at a later date be exported worldwide. They didn't and they failed. The NA is alot more open to different brands than any other market, if the product is right, Tesla could have been as successful even if it was not American, though that did contribute to their success. Yet how to explain that the EU market that that not like American cars, has such an ardent Tesla fanbase?

Lexus F can make competive products, it is the marketing strategy at which they fail.

The RC F got a new F engine, they car is heavier than it would have been but alright, Lexus needs an F car. Then comes the LC 500, it have everything of the F but is not an F car.

Well what is coming is quite clear. New IS, so no more F, the whole GR (except hybrid) retires, so as UR, not more F, no more V8 trucks. LC 500 get TT V6. Lexus needs a flagship F car to sell F Sport, so they bring TT V8 LC F (RC F flagship equivanlent). Then comes the LF1, TT V8 but not an F car, a Lexus flagship (as the LC 500), because in today's market LS is not enough for bling flagship model.

Lexus is a far more powerful brand than Infiniti, but Lexus is pulling an Infinit FX50 here. Infiniti came late with their 3.0l TT V6, the FX with its exclusive 5.0l NA V8 came when competitors were going TT V8 (FX45 was very successful and competitive in the markets where it was sold, despite Nissan interior). By the time LF1 is out, rivals will be on TTV8 hybrids. Let us hope that say s*ck. I read the V8 hybrids are fast in straight line but just way way too heavy, let us hope the journalists bash X8 M weight as they bashed the RC F.
 

spwolf

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Lots of information from best car:
 

CRSKTN

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Lots of information from best car:
Initial impression was sad, but in reality all it says is hey it might be 2022 if testing takes longer due to covid.

Obviously this isnt official, but the specs at the bottom means that thing thing will be as long and as wide as a full on Range Rover, but as tall as an evoque.

That's an extremely aggressive shape for an SUV.
 

spwolf

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Initial impression was sad, but in reality all it says is hey it might be 2022 if testing takes longer due to covid.

Obviously this isnt official, but the specs at the bottom means that thing thing will be as long and as wide as a full on Range Rover, but as tall as an evoque.

That's an extremely aggressive shape for an SUV.
- pretty wide and low
- v6 tt hybrid with over 450hp
- v8tt with over 580hp
- something that will have better performance than 680hp Urus (F model?)
 

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So new LX in about 12 months, LF-1 is delayed and might be released in 2022.

Turbo V6 hybrid and V8 in development.

Pretty much as we all expected, right?
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Here's a link to the Google Translation of the Best Car article:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&u=https://bestcarweb.jp/news/scoop/155868

Lexus currently seems to have something of a Porsche fixation for some of their flagship models (I don't mind...). The latest LS's "hunchback fastback" styling seems inspired by the original Porsche Panamera, and that Best Car article is emphatic on how much the production Lexus LF-1 is aimed at the Porsche Cayenne.

It states the production LF-1's tentative dimensions:
Wheelbase: 2990mm (117.7")
Length: 5005mm (197")
Width: 1980mm (78")
Height: 1595mm (62.8")

That makes the LF-1 2.8" (71mm) longer, 3.2" (81mm) lower and the same width as the new Porsche Cayenne Coupe, on a 3" (76mm) longer wheelbase.

The Dynamic Force 4-liter twin turbo V8 would be presumably shared with the LC F. The Best Car article suggests, however, that the "regular" V8 LC would use this engine as a replacement for the current 2UR-GSE 5-liter V8 and that it would also "be the heart of the next IS F" (!) Perhaps, as @spwolf implied above, the 4-liter twin turbo V8 could come in milder "600" and hotter "F" tunes for both LC and LF-1 model lines.

The rumored Dynamic Force 3-liter twin turbo V6 hybrid would, of course, be Lexus' first-ever turbocharged hybrid engine. It would presumably be a V30A little brother to the 5LS's V35A-FTS unit. But whether the turbo hybrid uses an FTS suffix (for its turbocharging) or FXS (for hybrid) or a new suffix reflecting both (say, FTX) is an open question.
 

LexsCTJill

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So new LX in about 12 months, LF-1 is delayed and might be released in 2022.

Turbo V6 hybrid and V8 in development.

Pretty much as we all expected, right?
Makes no difference now. With the economy having a very long path to recovery, Lexus is far better off delaying new expensive models.
 

krew

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According to the latest report from Japanese magazine Best Car, the production model Lexus LF-1 Limitless will debut in 2022 squarely aimed at the Porsche Cayenne.
The article outlines the LF-1’s tentative dimensions:

Wheelbase: 2990mm (117.7”)
Length: 5005mm (197”)
Width: 1980mm (78”)
Height: 1595mm (62.8”)

This aligns closely with the new Porsche Cayenne Coupe, with the LF-1 2.8” (71mm) longer, 3.2” (81mm) lower, and a 3” (76mm) increase in wheelbase.
Best Car also outlines the potential powertrains, starting with a Dynamic Force 4L twin turbo V8 that will replace the current 2UR-GSE 5L V8 used in the LC 500. Considering this engine is also expected to power a high-performance LC F model, it’s possible we may see a range of horsepower options.
There’s also mention of a...
Continue reading...
 

zeusus

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Very good news, can't wait for it. If the design is anything close to the concept as the LC was, it surely won't disappoint.

I'd like to remind @Gecko that we need to remove our biases against Lexus and just step back to see a bigger perspective of whats going on. I know its frustrating to not have the things you want at the time you want it but the intent is there, the information is there. For context

LF-1 is nowhere in sight

The LC concept premiered NAIAS 2012 and they premiered the production model 4 years later at Detroit 2016. The LF-1 Limitless premiered at Detroit 2018. "Nowhere in sight?" yes, in 2014 the LC500 was also nowhere in sight. The doom and gloom bias is getting ahead of what was supposed to be reason and logic. An April 2020 recent rumor by C&D put the next release in 2022, its just a rumor though it is in line with the LC's timeline. I'm not a genius but I can at least gather that in car speak, 2 years is not a long time and certainly within sight.
 

Gecko

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Very good news, can't wait for it. If the design is anything close to the concept as the LC was, it surely won't disappoint.

I'd like to remind @Gecko that we need to remove our biases against Lexus and just step back to see a bigger perspective of whats going on. I know its frustrating to not have the things you want at the time you want it but the intent is there, the information is there. For context
The longest part of the LC's transition from concept to production was the development of the platform it rode on, which didn’t previously exist. As we have all seen and celebrated, the design didn't change much from 2012 to 2018 -- that process didn't take six years. But GA-L is now three years old. Why is it taking four and a half years from the show table (Jan 2018) to the dealership (2022?) for a vehicle to be produced when the hardware to build it already exists? The LC didn't have that luxury.

I will be very happy if/when the LF-1 happens, but I’m also worried it’s going to show up too late and lack key competitive strengths as a result, like the 5LS did when it debuted. Even if Lexus is planning to launch it with a new hybrid system and new V8s, they have identified the V35A-FTS as their flagship engine, so I think an "LF-1 500" should have been a fairly easy lift that buys time for new power plants in future model years, much like we all speculate about the LS 500 and LC 500.

While I know Best Car tends to be reliable, I want to believe that Lexus sees the tremendous upside this model could have and that it would be spared from any product or development freezes. LF-1 is critical for Lexus right now, and I want to think they know that, and that it might come sooner than 2022.

One thing I am quite sure of: Lexus will need a new AWD system that works with a GA-L SUV application. The current AWD option on the LS 500 is their same full time AWD system with a torsion limited-slip diff. I assume they are going to need some variety of torque vectoring + performance modes + off road capability for the LF-1, so I suppose I should factor in another year or two of development for that 😉
 

James

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Not the best at remembering what Carmaker1 says but if we are say 18 months from a 2022 release date shouldn't the LF1 be done with development and planning stage already?
 

spwolf

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But GA-L is now three years old. Why is it taking four and a half years from the show table (Jan 2018) to the dealership (2022?) for a vehicle to be produced when the hardware to build it already exists? The LC didn't have that luxury.
does not work that way at all... I know you think they copy and paste from different vehicles but again, it does not work that way. Using same platform does not mean that it takes them less to develop a vehicle.

And of course, both new engines actually do not exist at all right now... and vehicle was supposed to be released in 2021, and still might be (which is what Best Car states).
 

Gecko

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does not work that way at all... I know you think they copy and paste from different vehicles but again, it does not work that way. Using same platform does not mean that it takes them less to develop a vehicle.
Lol, that is exactly how platform engineering works and that is the whole purpose of TNGA. You realize that, right?

Would a GA-L based CUV be the exact same as the LS or LC? No, but the baseline chassis already exists, and that is the most significant share of the engineering and development work. No doubt there will be some additional work for a CUV - new suspension, beefing up certain driveline components, a new AWD system, then the entire interior and exterior design process - but this is literally how flexible, scaleable architectures work. Toyota knows it better than anyone else - over 2.5 years, we got the Camry, Avalon, ES, RAV4, Venza, Highlander and Sienna all on GA-K. It can be done.

Powertrains are another obviously important point. If Lexus is choosing to wait until the new turbo V6 hybrid and V8 families are ready, then so be it. If LF-1 debuts in 2022 (as 2023MY?) with a brand new turbocharged hybrid powertrain (coming in the Tundra next year), a "base" 4L TT V8 and a higher performance TT V8 F model, then I don't think many people will complain, myself included. But Lexus hasn't done a great job recently of delivering on their promises after substantial delays... thus the worry and "what's taking so long?" sentiments.

This reads like I think the LF-1 has to be an "all or nothing" product to succeed which I do not think is true. It would have been logical to me to see them launch an "LF-1 500" next year, then follow up with an "LF-1 600h" and "LF-1 F" in 2022 to keep the momentum going. If we are about to see a strategy shift where new Lexus products are launched as a full product line from the beginning ("500", "600h", "F" at the same time) then this is certainly a strategy shift I welcome. It just hasn't been how we've seen Lexus operate, well, ever.
 

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If I was at Lexus, I would have to figure out a way to get these products faster to market without sacrificing quality. The fact is this vehicle is so late its not funny. The BMW X6 is in its THIRD generation. Look I am not at all a fan of coupe SUV's but from a business standpoint this is where the market has gone. Lexus should have a NX/RX coupe and a LF-1 by now. Again what perplexes me is these vehicles are not all new from the ground up. They are mix matches of existing parts. The Q8 is a Cayenne/Urus blend for example.

As an advocate for Lexus they have to move faster. The only way to come late to the party is if you come to really **** the party up and get everyones attention. In other words a 700hp SUV that has EV capability with an interior from a Castle. Otherwise its like coming late to the party dressed in black coming in the back door and people don't even realize you are there except your friends.

For us personally if my wife doesn't jump to Porsche/Maserati this could be something she is interested in. It could keep a loyal person happy. She would love something like a LC but in SUV form. If it has 7 seats as rumored that is a huge huge huge plus as well. Even if it fits only two mice lol.
 

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Well, as it happens my lease for RX450h F ends in 2022. If lexus LF-1 is available for sale, this will be my choice. If not, sorry Lexus, but will have to go with Porsche Cayenne Coupe. And this can be the beginning of a end of my 15yr relationship with Lex.
 

Sulu

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does not work that way at all... I know you think they copy and paste from different vehicles but again, it does not work that way. Using same platform does not mean that it takes them less to develop a vehicle.

And of course, both new engines actually do not exist at all right now... and vehicle was supposed to be released in 2021, and still might be (which is what Best Car states).
It takes about 5 years (give or take) to develop a new model; this is regardless of whether the underlying platform is a new one or a refresh of an existing one. So, 4 years from autoshow concept to production is about right.

This is assuming that the "concept" is truly a concept -- an idea of a vehicle that may be built in the future, assuming that there is public demand and approval from senior management. Perhaps we are confusing Toyota/Lexus concepts, which tend to be an initial visualization of a designer's idea that is not production-ready, with Honda/Acura concepts, which tend to be the production-ready car with a few fancy tidbits added for the show value. That is why Honda/Acura can bring their "concepts" to production and sale so quickly (mere months), yet it takes Lexus 4 or 5 years to bring their concepts to production and sale.

When we are truly into EVs built on a one-size-fits-all skateboard, then bringing a new model from concept to production and sale may be about 2 years (give or take) -- about the time it takes to produce a facelift. But we are not there yet.

If I was at Lexus, I would have to figure out a way to get these products faster to market without sacrificing quality. The fact is this vehicle is so late its not funny. The BMW X6 is in its THIRD generation. Look I am not at all a fan of coupe SUV's but from a business standpoint this is where the market has gone. Lexus should have a NX/RX coupe and a LF-1 by now. Again what perplexes me is these vehicles are not all new from the ground up. They are mix matches of existing parts. The Q8 is a Cayenne/Urus blend for example.

As an advocate for Lexus they have to move faster. The only way to come late to the party is if you come to really **** the party up and get everyones attention. In other words a 700hp SUV that has EV capability with an interior from a Castle. Otherwise its like coming late to the party dressed in black coming in the back door and people don't even realize you are there except your friends.

For us personally if my wife doesn't jump to Porsche/Maserati this could be something she is interested in. It could keep a loyal person happy. She would love something like a LC but in SUV form. If it has 7 seats as rumored that is a huge huge huge plus as well. Even if it fits only two mice lol.
I don't think that the lack of product is a problem with the length of time it engineers a new vehicle; it takes about 5 years to engineer and bring a new vehicle from initial planning to production and sale. Rushing the engineering of new vehicles is probably only going to shorten the process by a few months to a year.

I believe that the problem was due to a lack of vision 5 to 10 years ago; too little planning was done for one or two generations into the future. Either that or there was a change of minds in senior management about 5 years ago and plans that had been made were suddenly cancelled, forcing new plans to be made (which would delay those models that were cancelled by 5 years or more).
 

zeusus

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Well, as it happens my lease for RX450h F ends in 2022. If lexus LF-1 is available for sale, this will be my choice. If not, sorry Lexus, but will have to go with Porsche Cayenne Coupe. And this can be the beginning of a end of my 15yr relationship with Lex.
If what you really wanted was the LF-1, the obvious answer would be to ask dealer for lease extension.

The BMW X6 is in its THIRD generation. Look I am not at all a fan of coupe SUV's but from a business standpoint this is where the market has gone. Lexus should have a NX/RX coupe and a LF-1 by now. Again what perplexes me is these vehicles are not all new from the ground up. They are mix matches of existing parts. The Q8 is a Cayenne/Urus blend for example.
From a sales perspective, Lexus doesn't need to match BMW in the number/variety of SUVs. Yes the LF1 is needed but the in-betweener strategy is a model that Lexus can skip with confidence.
 
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spwolf

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Well, as it happens my lease for RX450h F ends in 2022. If lexus LF-1 is available for sale, this will be my choice. If not, sorry Lexus, but will have to go with Porsche Cayenne Coupe. And this can be the beginning of a end of my 15yr relationship with Lex.
it is always the best to vote with your wallet.
 

spwolf

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While I know Best Car tends to be reliable, I want to believe that Lexus sees the tremendous upside this model could have and that it would be spared from any product or development freezes. LF-1 is critical for Lexus right now, and I want to think they know that, and that it might come sooner than 2022.

One thing I am quite sure of: Lexus will need a new AWD system that works with a GA-L SUV application. The current AWD option on the LS 500 is their same full time AWD system with a torsion limited-slip diff. I assume they are going to need some variety of torque vectoring + performance modes + off road capability for the LF-1, so I suppose I should factor in another year or two of development for that 😉
- Best Car said that it could be delayed if they dont have time for testing due to the covid-19, not that it was delayed. In any case, it was planned for 2021.
- And Yaris got crazy sports torque vectoring before any of the Lexus models! :p
- Roughly around 4-5 years and cool $1 billion to develop a new model such as LF-1
 

spwolf

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p.s. Best Car is not that reliable... more reliable than some but they claimed things like IS will be released in February 2020, or Toyota TJ Cruiser being released in Q1 2020 and then later had a scoop that it wont be released (not cancelled, just not developed).

But yes, some things there are reliable, so I trust them with V8tt info and with V6tt hybrid info (which is extremely cool).
 
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