New Fifth-Generation Lexus LS 500 to Start at $75,000 in USA

[bogglo]

I agree. But I just have a feeling Lexus deliberately priced the LS the way they did to leave room for another LS variant. Maybe the LSF, or a replacement for the LS600h. Considering the fact that Toyota said there would be two types of hybrid in their line ups now a regular one and another focused more on performance. What's am looking forward to though is how the GS and ES would be priced.

 

[spwolf]

I agree. But I just have a feeling Lexus deliberately priced the LS the way they did to leave room for another LS variant. Maybe the LSF, or a replacement for the LS600h. Considering the fact that Toyota said there would be two types of hybrid in their line ups now a regular one and another focused more on performance. What's am looking forward to though is how the GS and ES would be priced.

its definitely LSF, but lets not kid ourselves, people will complain when they see $130k price for it (loaded).

 

[Levi]

i doubt their FCV is going anywhere, which does not mean that they are not pushing EVs for the future too. They just dont need to lose money on them just yet.

In starting with the Prius (Hybrid), Toyota always saw electric car as the future, but as far future and they considered HFCEV as a stepping stone. It turns out the industry will not use that 'stepping stone' and hope over it directly to BEVs. Of course Gasoline/Diesel will remain for heavy-duty vehicles, but more likely as generators.

 

[spwolf]

In starting with the Prius (Hybrid), Toyota always saw electric car as the future, but as far future and they considered HFCEV as a stepping stone. It turns out the industry will not use that 'stepping stone' and hope over it directly to BEVs. Of course Gasoline/Diesel will remain for heavy-duty vehicles, but more likely as generators.

well they see fcev as those generators, not dirty diesels... i am not sure what industry will do, so far with all the hype, people are not buying cheapo EVs without huge incentives that most governments are not eager to provide.

just as cost of batteries goes down, so will cost of fcevs.

 

[ssun30]

In starting with the Prius (Hybrid), Toyota always saw electric car as the future, but as far future and they considered HFCEV as a stepping stone. It turns out the industry will not use that 'stepping stone' and hope over it directly to BEVs.

There's no place in this forum for me to have a separate post on this whole Hydrogen Economy stuff because it will involve a lot of political discussion.

But in short FCVs are not meant to be a stepping stone to BEVs. They are meant to coexist with pure BEVs in the 2040s since ultimately, human being cannot build 100% of their automobile to be BEVs. The price of lithium will spiral out of control. Of course you can argue there will be alternative materials, but lithium is the most superior material no matter what type of electrochemistry you use.

Japan and Korea were the two countries that pushed the Hydrogen Economy idea the most for lots of reasons. That's why Toyota/Honda/Hyundai got huge subsidies from their government to do FCVs. It is linked to their energy policy. Everything went well until two things happened: 1) Fracking, it not only allowed the U.S. to have complete control of oil price for the next two decades, but also meant that Japan/Korea will no longer be competitive when it comes to hydrogen extraction 2) Tesla, it is revolutionary not because it looks cool, drives by itself, or whatever people get hyped about. It changed the landscape of alternative energy vehicles by proving a profitable BEV program is possible, right now, ten years before the industry has previously estimated.

As a result, those three companies realized what an unfortunate gamble they've made and rushed to have their own BEV programs. Luckily for them, they have easy access to the most advanced battery technology from the get-go. TMC has a partnership with Panasonic, who also supplies batteries for Tesla while Hyundai works with LG, who is second after Panasonic in battery tech.

 

[spwolf]

There's no place in this forum for me to have a separate post on this whole Hydrogen Economy stuff because it will involve a lot of political discussion.

But in short FCVs are not meant to be a stepping stone to BEVs. They are meant to coexist with pure BEVs in the 2040s since ultimately, human being cannot build 100% of their automobile to be BEVs. The price of lithium will spiral out of control. Of course you can argue there will be alternative materials, but lithium is the most superior material no matter what type of electrochemistry you use.

Japan and Korea were the two countries that pushed the Hydrogen Economy idea the most for lots of reasons. That's why Toyota/Honda/Hyundai got huge subsidies from their government to do FCVs. It is linked to their energy policy. Everything went well until two things happened: 1) Fracking, it not only allowed the U.S. to have complete control of oil price for the next two decades, but also meant that Japan/Korea will no longer be competitive when it comes to hydrogen extraction 2) Tesla, it is revolutionary not because it looks cool, drives by itself, or whatever people get hyped about. It changed the landscape of alternative energy vehicles by proving a profitable BEV program is possible, right now, ten years before the industry has previously estimated.

As a result, those three companies realized what an unfortunate gamble they've made and rushed to have their own BEV programs. Luckily for them, they have easy access to the most advanced battery technology from the get-go. TMC has a partnership with Panasonic, who also supplies batteries for Tesla while Hyundai works with LG, who is second after Panasonic in battery tech.

You forgot about MB that has had FCV program as long as Japanese had, so did GM but they folded theirs while MB did not and just introduced new FCV vehicle.

I think you always take too simplistic view on things . For instance, Toyota probably has largest research team on next generation batteries, and they have had it at least since 2008.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080612/153224/
http://www.toyota.com.cn/innovation...logy/next_generation_secondary_batteries.html

Toyota owned companies started buying lithium ore supply since 2010:
http://www.toyota-tsusho.com/english/csr/business/case09.html

So it is not anything new. Their big investment into research of solid batteries started in 2010 and collaborates with big 4 japanese universities that have published the largest amount of academic papers into lithium batteries in the world. It is not something that started yesterday.

After all they sell 1.5m hybrids on yearly basis, only big manufacturer that actually has "electrified" big portion of their fleet and found it profitable. So it is nothing new. "Problem" is that like every other manufacturer, they do not want to lose money on building EVs now. Same as others dont really build hybrids but build PR pieces and throw numbers out to appease investors and yet they end up selling diesels. It is all about being profitable.

As to the Japan - Japan does not have enough electricity to power their homes and factories - it is a big problem for them. It is completely understandable why they are looking for a storage medium for power, such as FC stack. Germany, USA also invested a lot of money into R&D of FC, as well as batteries. US likely spent more money, just like they spent more money on battery R&D and yet no battery manufacturers survived.

So nothing is simple black and white.

 

[mmcartalk]

So nothing is simple black and white.

Hmmm..........

 

[bogglo]

Hmmm..........

hahaha

 

[CIF]

Japan and Korea were the two countries that pushed the Hydrogen Economy idea the most for lots of reasons. That's why Toyota/Honda/Hyundai got huge subsidies from their government to do FCVs. It is linked to their energy policy. Everything went well until two things happened: 1) Fracking, it not only allowed the U.S. to have complete control of oil price for the next two decades, but also meant that Japan/Korea will no longer be competitive when it comes to hydrogen extraction 2) Tesla, it is revolutionary not because it looks cool, drives by itself, or whatever people get hyped about. It changed the landscape of alternative energy vehicles by proving a profitable BEV program is possible, right now, ten years before the industry has previously estimated.

I know this is off-topic, but I must point out you are greatly misinformed about Tesla. Tesla over the years has received massive subsidies from the US government. Billions and billions of dollars worth. Elon Musk is a brilliant man...but he is no god. Many observers, including yourself judging by your comments, all consider what Tesla has done in the industry to be revolutionary. However there is a really big problem with this perspective. Without US government subsidies, Tesla would not be where it is today. Furthermore, it has already been proven that in various international markets, Tesla sales have been mostly fueled by government consumer subsidies. When those subsidies ended in certain international markets, Tesla sales imploded.

So on the surface of it, Tesla's achievements seem revolutionary, almost too good to be true...because in reality, they are. For a brand new automobile company to come out of nowhere, and suddenly compete with the best automakers in the world. It seemed too good to be true. When you dig into the details, it certainly is. This is not a company competing naturally and organically in the free market, by free market rules. This is a company fueled massively by direct government assistance and subsidies, not to mention sales fueled by subsidies in various international markets. Hypothetically, if there was such government backing and huge levels of subsidies for hydrogen vehicles worldwide, then I'm sure some automaker with hydrogen cars would be seen as quite successful right now too.

Also you are incorrect about Tesla being profitable. While Tesla is worth a huge amount of money in stock and on paper, the company actually keeps losing money. http://fortune.com/2017/05/04/tesla-motors-stock-earnings/

Tesla for the most part is unprofitable. Very much like a popular tech start-up company in fact. Massive revenues, massive valuation, yet no real profits but lots of losses. Tesla has a lot of hype and stock valuation simply on the belief that it will become profitable in the future, and that it is a "company of the future", not because the company is profitable right now.

Just wanted to point these things out. I'm sure we should all be getting back on topic now.

 

[Black Dynamite]

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice

The LF-FC was a bold design move, exactly what Lexus needed to compete, head-to-head, with the S-Class. Something happened on the way to the production line, but the LF-FC was done away with, and so was a V8 engine in the LS. It may reappear in an LSC trim, but that, again, would fail compete directly with the now Mercedes S560.

This new design is no better than what it replaced, IMO. It is different, but not better. I preferred the squared-off front bumper and tall rear quarters of the last-gen car. This has more glitz, the previous had more road presence.

To Lexus' credit, at least they aren't trying to pass this off as a direct competitor to the S-Class, as their price indicates. It shows that Lexus is still afraid to step up and take on the Germans, directly.

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

Loud and clear.
BD

 

[Levi]

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice....
BD

What you wrote, applies the same way to BMW with the 7 Series and Audi with the A8 (not meant to excuse Lexus). I wonder what the next S Class will be like, but quite certainly better without the dropping line.

 

[ssun30]

You forgot about MB that has had FCV program as long as Japanese had, so did GM but they folded theirs while MB did not and just introduced new FCV vehicle.

I think you always take too simplistic view on things . For instance, Toyota probably has largest research team on next generation batteries, and they have had it at least since 2008.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080612/153224/
http://www.toyota.com.cn/innovation...logy/next_generation_secondary_batteries.html

Toyota owned companies started buying lithium ore supply since 2010:
http://www.toyota-tsusho.com/english/csr/business/case09.html

So it is not anything new. Their big investment into research of solid batteries started in 2010 and collaborates with big 4 japanese universities that have published the largest amount of academic papers into lithium batteries in the world. It is not something that started yesterday.

After all they sell 1.5m hybrids on yearly basis, only big manufacturer that actually has "electrified" big portion of their fleet and found it profitable. So it is nothing new. "Problem" is that like every other manufacturer, they do not want to lose money on building EVs now. Same as others dont really build hybrids but build PR pieces and throw numbers out to appease investors and yet they end up selling diesels. It is all about being profitable.

As to the Japan - Japan does not have enough electricity to power their homes and factories - it is a big problem for them. It is completely understandable why they are looking for a storage medium for power, such as FC stack. Germany, USA also invested a lot of money into R&D of FC, as well as batteries. US likely spent more money, just like they spent more money on battery R&D and yet no battery manufacturers survived.

So nothing is simple black and white.

Now that this thread has gone terribly off-topic, I'm not going to argue with you about this, maybe another time when there's actually a proper discussion on Lexus EVs.

As you've said, nothing is simply black and white, and Japan's Hydrogen Economy is not simply because of the reason you've stated. We are both oversimplifying things in each other's eyes. We do this to not have to write essays that are too long to read.

 

[bogglo]

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice

The LF-FC was a bold design move, exactly what Lexus needed to compete, head-to-head, with the S-Class. Something happened on the way to the production line, but the LF-FC was done away with, and so was a V8 engine in the LS. It may reappear in an LSC trim, but that, again, would fail compete directly with the now Mercedes S560.

This new design is no better than what it replaced, IMO. It is different, but not better. I preferred the squared-off front bumper and tall rear quarters of the last-gen car. This has more glitz, the previous had more road presence.

To Lexus' credit, at least they aren't trying to pass this off as a direct competitor to the S-Class, as their price indicates. It shows that Lexus is still afraid to step up and take on the Germans, directly.

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

Loud and clear.
BD

Everything you mentioned can be said for even the S -class I have not seen a major redesign for the S-class in a while only if the minor headlights and tail lights count.

What I don't understand is why people want Lexus to price the LS has an S-class knowing fully well the same people would be the first to complain about the pricing.

Lexus is not afraid of anything that's why they built the LC the way they did and still price it lesser than its competitors. Because the LC made it to production unchanged doesn't mean all Lexus/Toyota prototypes would make it to production untouched. Plus i think it has been said a few times on this site that the LF-FC was made after the design of the LS has been finalized.

Lexus know that even if they put all the technology in the S-class + the ones in the 5LS combined and price that car at S-class level there would still be some of us that would complain about how the S-class have a 22inch rims and the LS has 21.5inch.

Personally I think that car is worth more than Lexus is selling it for.

Let us know when you pick up your LS because after you test drive it you might realize that the remaining 40 something thousand dollars on the S-class is just for the badge and the unnecessary toys thrown in the car to drive the 50+ dad crazy.

 

[krew]

gotta say, your fb live video made it look really really good, despite low quality... there is only so much you can see on pictures and video gave it completely different dimension. It looked sophisticated, smart and expensive.

Cell signal was really tough to get outside of San Francisco, and it screwed up the quality a bit. Thanks for watching!

 

[krew]

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

What a negative way of looking at things!

As @bogglo mentions, the LF-FC was designed when the production LS design was already finalized. Not only that, it was HUGE -- it was easily the size of a RR Phantom, and that gave it a lot of room for bold sweeping lines and elaborate styling.

Flagships sedans are a shrinking market, and I don't think it's just because people now prefer SUVs. Anyone buying an LS or S-Class likely has a SUV already in their driveway. I think it's value vs. expense -- the S-Class price is so inflated it's ridiculous.

I think you're mistaking value with cheap -- there's nothing half-assed about the LS. Nothing. I honestly thought they would charge at least $10k more, but they didn't. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[mikeavelli]

I know this is off-topic, but I must point out you are greatly misinformed about Tesla. Tesla over the years has received massive subsidies from the US government. Billions and billions of dollars worth. Elon Musk is a brilliant man...but he is no god. Many observers, including yourself judging by your comments, all consider what Tesla has done in the industry to be revolutionary. However there is a really big problem with this perspective. Without US government subsidies, Tesla would not be where it is today. Furthermore, it has already been proven that in various international markets, Tesla sales have been mostly fueled by government consumer subsidies. When those subsidies ended in certain international markets, Tesla sales imploded.

So on the surface of it, Tesla's achievements seem revolutionary, almost too good to be true...because in reality, they are. For a brand new automobile company to come out of nowhere, and suddenly compete with the best automakers in the world. It seemed too good to be true. When you dig into the details, it certainly is. This is not a company competing naturally and organically in the free market, by free market rules. This is a company fueled massively by direct government assistance and subsidies, not to mention sales fueled by subsidies in various international markets. Hypothetically, if there was such government backing and huge levels of subsidies for hydrogen vehicles worldwide, then I'm sure some automaker with hydrogen cars would be seen as quite successful right now too.

Also you are incorrect about Tesla being profitable. While Tesla is worth a huge amount of money in stock and on paper, the company actually keeps losing money. http://fortune.com/2017/05/04/tesla-motors-stock-earnings/

Tesla for the most part is unprofitable. Very much like a popular tech start-up company in fact. Massive revenues, massive valuation, yet no real profits but lots of losses. Tesla has a lot of hype and stock valuation simply on the belief that it will become profitable in the future, and that it is a "company of the future", not because the company is profitable right now.

Just wanted to point these things out. I'm sure we should all be getting back on topic now.

This is such a good point even if its more aggressive than I would post. While I can appreciate Tesla as a whole, I do believe they have one or two profitable quarters their entire existence. How is that going to work out long term? Their value and their results are so far apart its scary.

I think what Tesla did get right which people tend to ignore is they simply made a great looking car in the Model S and the Model X is a dream cool car simply for the doors. And then they realized people love fast cars thus the 90D, 100D etc.

To me its just crazy you can charge your Electric car up at random places for free because its electric. Imagine going to the mall and getting free gas. I don't get it.

 

[mikeavelli]

What this indicates to me is exactly what I didn't want from Lexus with this redesign: Cowardice

The LF-FC was a bold design move, exactly what Lexus needed to compete, head-to-head, with the S-Class. Something happened on the way to the production line, but the LF-FC was done away with, and so was a V8 engine in the LS. It may reappear in an LSC trim, but that, again, would fail compete directly with the now Mercedes S560.

This new design is no better than what it replaced, IMO. It is different, but not better. I preferred the squared-off front bumper and tall rear quarters of the last-gen car. This has more glitz, the previous had more road presence.

To Lexus' credit, at least they aren't trying to pass this off as a direct competitor to the S-Class, as their price indicates. It shows that Lexus is still afraid to step up and take on the Germans, directly.

Playing the value game was great, almost 30 years ago, as a young upstart. Now, Hyundai's Genesis brand is doing that to Lexus. They aren't bold enough to go dollar-for-dollar, and they know their place, just as Lexus knows its place, which is below the S-Class. They seem to have no problem continuing this position indefinitely. When I see this new LS, it represents the weakness of Lexus. It embodies it. And that argument is legitimate.

My point is why not be better than that? What is Lexus afraid of? After almost 30 years, and after a near perfect concept was scuttled, that question is the 800-lb gorilla in the room. That question should be addressed.

Is it wrong for me to want, and expect, more from Lexus, this time around? I don't think so. My question is why can't I get more than a second-fiddle mentality from this brand? If they think of themselves that way, why shouldn't I?

I'm reading between Lexus' lines, judging them based on their actions, not their words, and I don't like the message they're sending, but I am getting the message

Loud and clear.
BD

BD I haven't seen the new A8 yet but the new LS really blows anything away in class in regards to style save the Panamera which uses the usual Porsche design cues. I might not be totally in love with it but they sure took a bold chance with the LS.

Sorry but Genesis is not even an also-ran, its not better than the competition, its cheaper. When Lexus debuted it was better and cheaper arguably.

I think with this new LS, Lexus once again can hold that argument and that is something the LS couldn't really say past 2009/2010.

 

[carnut]

Lexus Canada website has configuration details on the 2018 LS.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Lexus Canada website has configuration details on the 2018 LS.

I kind of hope the US has more options than just F-Sport (US$85k), Luxury (US$90k), or Executive (US$100k). Also, F-Sport is so lean on options it's practically a penalty box.

 

[supra93]

2018 Lexus LS 500 Pricing Remains Competitive

Now in its fifth generation, the 2018 Lexus LS 500 aims to give customers more for their money.

Despite offering more powerful, comfort, and safety than ever before, the new Lexus LS 500 has a base price that is $3,820 less than its current long-wheelbase predecessor. Starting from $75,995 including destination, the LS 500 can also be had with all-wheel drive for $3,220 additional (on all models). The Lexus LS 500h hybrid variant starts from $78,515 while the LS 500 F Sport has a price tag of $81,995.

In addition to announcing the sedan’s pricing, Lexus confirmed it will air a new commercial during the 2018 Super Bowl starring the 2018 Lexus LS.
“The 2018 LS is one of the most important launches in our brand’s history, so it makes sense for us to use a stage like the Super Bowl to showcase it to our customers. The LS not only offers unsurpassed performance, style and luxury, its competitive pricing makes it a great value as well,” said Lexus Group Vice President and Division General Manager, Jeff Bracken.

Powering the 2018 Lexus LS 500 is an all-new 3.5-liter twin-turbo V6 with 416 horsepower and 442 pound-feet of torque, which is a noticeable increase over the outgoing 386 hp and 367 lb-ft of torque values. The LS 500h features a 3.5-liter V6 gasoline engine complemented by two electric motors to deliver 354 hp.

Several packages for the 2018 Lexus LS 500 were also announced. The Interior Upgrade Package adds quilted-stitch, perforated semi-aniline leather-trimmed interior, 28-way power driver’s seat with multifunction massage, power front seatbelt buckles, heated rear seats, and more for $3,730. The Interior Upgrade Package is not available on the F Sport model.

There’s also the Luxury Package, which is priced differently depending on the model. On the standard LS 500 RWD, it’s $12,290 while AWD owners pay $20 less. The LS 500h’s Luxury Package costs $12,270 on the RWD model and $12,250 on the AWD model. It adds 28-way power passenger seat with multifunction massage, passenger-seat power cushion extender, 18-way heated and ventilated power-reclining rear seats with memory, remote adjustment for passenger seat, and four-zone climate concierge.

Available only on the standard LS 500 is the Executive Package, which adds butterfly power-retractable front headrests, 22-way power rear seats with butterfly headrests, as well as memory and multifunction massage with heat for $17,100 on the RWD model and $17,080 on the AWD model.
It appears if hybrid owners want the Executive Package, they have to opt for the Executive Package with Kiriko Glass. Along with what’s found on the standard Executive Package, the Kiriko Glass version adds Kiriko glass interior door trim, and hand-pleated interior door trim. It is $23,100 on the LS 500 RWD and $23,080 on the LS 500 AWD, while on the LS 500h it costs $23,080 on the RWD model and $23,060 on the AWD version.

Lastly, there’s an F Sport Performance Package for the LS 500 F Sport, priced at $9,700 and only available for the RWD model. It adds dynamic rear steering, variable gear-ratio steering, and active stabilizers.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2018/01/2018-lexus-ls-500-pricing-remains-competitive.html