Mazda developing new Skyactiv-X / Skyactiv-D inline 6

[Levi]

And what is with the Mazda I6 engines? I was actually surprised with the LS 500 getting a new stand alone V6 instead of a modular I6 as most are starting to do now. But then I am again surprised that Lexus is coming with a new FI V8 so late in the game.

BMW was said to be developping an N63/S63 replacement, but with doubt of the future it looks (if those rumors were true) they might have dropped it, and could replace it with high performance (P)HEV I6.

6 cylinders will be the 8/12 cylinders of tomorrow.

 

[Will1991]

Well, BMW/Mercedes and other does have to withdraw V8's to comply with emissions regulations... Lexus/Toyota does not

Lexus/Toyota might get a lot of new buyers with this move... Imagine a C63 buyer used to get bigger turbos and stuff buying a 4 cylinder PHEV? In USA? I'm not seeing it happening....

 

[Carmaker1]

I am just a human my friend

Following Toyota for past 18 years and working for them for quite few of those, I dont see those deep integrations that we would sometimes think normal or expected, and they really do not move fast.

Understandable from your perspective indeed, because yes sometimes we do get ahead of ourselves.

But when it comes logistics like this and tangible evidence, isn't reasonable to always write off such possibilities.

I can believe it's very possible (not guaranteed yet) that's the reason such rumors have been coming about regarding Toyota and Mazda since 2017, collaborating on a RWD platform.

Is this platform going to be from scratch and only utilized on Lexus models below a certain threshold? Sometimes where there is smoke, there is fire.

Some things about Jaguar when I worked there, would leak out to the press and one could tell that some of them were tidbits, that were no longer going to come to fruition or had no business being spilled out in the first place so soon.

Is it possible that actual discussions between BMW and Toyota did happen regarding sharing on IS and someone decided to make a little money off of telling the media things that were only being studied?

A lot of people said they would never make a car with BMW by the name of the Supra and look what happened.

Back to Mazda, I tried not to think much of it, but the timing fits very well.

Mazda has delayed their RWD plans by 2Q into 2022 from 2021. By now they would've been forced to make commitments to firm product plans in model program, in 2 years away from launch.

If Lexus updates IS on New N in Q4, a minimum of 36-48 months is required for ROI. That all points to 2023-24 EOP. The first RWD Mazda vehicles are in 2022(excl MX-5).

 

[Carmaker1]

Well, BMW/Mercedes and other does have to withdraw V8's to comply with emissions regulations... Lexus/Toyota does not

Lexus/Toyota might get a lot of new buyers with this move... Imagine a C63 buyer used to get bigger turbos and stuff buying a 4 cylinder PHEV? In USA? I'm not seeing it happening....

MB have lost their minds...I could say.

BUT it goes back to their roots in terms of high performance I4 based compact RWD halo variant vs big engine vehicle.

The 1980s to early '90s 190E (W201) 16 valve Evolution comes to mind:



But they did have that AMG tuned 190E 3.2 AMG Inline 6 in the early 90s. Now that was sex!

3.2L I6 AMG 190 E (1992-93)


As MB dabbled into official AMG variants, the first 1994 1/2 C36 AMG design had quietly been approved in parallel during 1990 and patented 12/19/1990, 1 year after the overall W202 C-Class body had been set in 1989 (launched summer 1993). AMG wasn't a division of Mercedes-Benz until 1991.

W202 "190" Clay on February 27, 1989


3.6L V6 C36 AMG (1994-97)




C43 AMG V8 existed from 1997's C-Class facelift, but upon redesign again reverted to a V6 in 2001 with the C32 AMG (W203).

4.3L V8 C43 AMG (1997-00)

3.2L V6 C32 AMG (2001-04)

It wasn't until the facelift in 2004, a V8 returned as C55 AMG, powered by a 5.5L was nestled into the W203 generation and then bumped to C63 badging in 2007 upon W204 redesign.

5.5L V8 C55 AMG (2004-06)

6.2L V8 C63 AMG (2007-10, pre-facelift)

It's going back to basics essentially. Current W205's already downsized 4.0L TTV8 signaled things to come. A chapter finally ends with the compact V8 muscle sedan.

 

[Levi]

^ The same will be valid for BMW. M3 E30 was I4 and M5 E28 was I6.

 

[Carmaker1]

^ The same will be valid for BMW. M3 E30 was I4 and M5 E28 was I6.

Yes, I can imagine so. Back to basics.

 

[Levi]

Yes, I can imagine so. Back to basics.

Not really basics, they'll be turbocharged and electrically assisted, quite more complex than NA ICE.

 

[ssun30]

I too don't buy the 'Mazda has been taken over by Toyota' theory because of the truth @spwolf pointed out: it took them two decades to 'take over' Daihatsu yet that company still operates with relative autonomy even today.

The right way to phrase this is that Mazda and Subaru are so deep in Toyota's sphere of influence that these companies could no longer stay independent without Toyota's investment and technology-sharing agreements.

Six years ago there was an internal Mazda presentation that states they don't believe in hybrids because they were comparing the efficiency of Skyactiv-X and a 2008 Prius. They were also an even bigger opponent to BEV. They came at the weird conclusion that a Skyactiv-X based ICEV would have the lowest carbon footprint than any electrified vehicle. Fast forward a bit and they realized they would not survive without HV and BEV technology and thus joining one of the big three is inevitable, and Toyota had the biggest technology pool to share with.

 

[Sulu]

I was under the impression that Mazda and other small Japanese automakers, including Subaru and Suzuki, wanted to remain independent, and Toyota would act as a "big brother" to ensure that they would remain independent and not bought out (or at least not fall under the control) by foreign interests. Toyota and the smaller automakers would trade stock and share technology that the smaller automakers would not be able to develop due to their limited resources.

 

[Motorsnwheels]

Here’s my guess as to what the partnership means. Cost savings for both companies by using the same manufacturers and suppliers for their vehicles and probably some electrification. Mazda has announced publicly that it will build its own engine. The venture will be parts and pieces but by no means will the vehicles be close to the same.

 

[spwolf]

I was under the impression that Mazda and other small Japanese automakers, including Subaru and Suzuki, wanted to remain independent, and Toyota would act as a "big brother" to ensure that they would remain independent and not bought out (or at least not fall under the control) by foreign interests. Toyota and the smaller automakers would trade stock and share technology that the smaller automakers would not be able to develop due to their limited resources.

Yes. But keep in mind that Toyota is way deeper in Subaru than into Mazda or Suzuki.

And that it could evolve when it makes sense.

 

[spwolf]

Is it possible that actual discussions between BMW and Toyota did happen regarding sharing on IS and someone decided to make a little money off of telling the media things that were only being studied?

A lot of people said they would never make a car with BMW by the name of the Supra and look what happened.

Back to Mazda, I tried not to think much of it, but the timing fits very well.

Mazda has delayed their RWD plans by 2Q into 2022 from 2021. By now they would've been forced to make commitments to firm product plans in model program, in 2 years away from launch.

If Lexus updates IS on New N in Q4, a minimum of 36-48 months is required for ROI. That all points to 2023-24 EOP. The first RWD Mazda vehicles are in 2022(excl MX-5).

So what do you think is happening with RWD platform? Are they going to be using GA-?
Recently on MX30 introduction, Mazda Chief (engineer?) mentioned that RWD platform is delayed due to inclusion of EV capabilities. That does not make sense to me if they are cooperating on it for a long time and are going to be using Mazda developed platform?

 

[Levi]

Its official:

Mazda reveals inline six engines and mild hybrid four-cylinder engines destined for 2022 Mazda 6 | CarAdvice

Mazda has used its second quarter financial update (based on the Japanese financial year) to confirm further details of its new inline six-cylinder engine family, offering an image of the new engine ...

www.caradvice.com.au

But not being turbocharged, it won't be faster than IS 350.

 

[ssun30]

Its official:

Mazda reveals inline six engines and mild hybrid four-cylinder engines destined for 2022 Mazda 6 | CarAdvice

Mazda has used its second quarter financial update (based on the Japanese financial year) to confirm further details of its new inline six-cylinder engine family, offering an image of the new engine ...

www.caradvice.com.au

But not being turbocharged, it won't be faster than IS 350.

It's not turbocharged but supercharged. But in this case forced induction is used for air enrichment to make an ultra-lean mixture to avoid the NOx emissions issue with typical lean burning. What's counterintuitive is that when the car is in high output mode, the engine goes to naturally aspirated mode to make the mixture more fuel rich.

That's why I arrived at ~270PS/330N.m figure for the Skyactiv-X Inline-6 (because it's essentially a naturally aspirated engine in max output mode). Turns out my predictions are almost correct. Skyactiv-X has very poor performance per price due to its complexity.

But knowing Mazda is actually competent at powertrain tuning (or should I say Lexus is increasingly bad at extracting performance out of the same output), I won't be surprised if the Mazda 6 Skyactiv-X can outperform the IS350, especially with 48V hybrid assist. The power-to-weight ratio of IS350 has barely changed, but for some baffling reason it just keeps getting slower with each model year. They essentially made a 315PS car perform as a 260PS car.

Mazda will not have a powertrain that's nearly as powerful as the V35A-FTS V6 let alone hybridized versions of it. The shame is that Mazda will employ Skyactiv-X on a less efficient P2 layout. The very high thermal efficiency of Skyactiv-X makes it a wonderful pair with Toyota's PS hybrid, even though they have full access to THS as an affiliate of TMC.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

It's not turbocharged but supercharged. But in this case forced induction is used for air enrichment to make an ultra-lean mixture to avoid the NOx emissions issue with typical lean burning. What's counterintuitive is that when the car is in high output mode, the engine goes to naturally aspirated mode to make the mixture more fuel rich.

That's why I arrived at ~270PS/330N.m figure for the Skyactiv-X Inline-6 (because it's essentially a naturally aspirated engine in max output mode). Turns out my predictions are almost correct. Skyactiv-X has very poor performance per price due to its complexity.

But knowing Mazda is actually competent at powertrain tuning (or should I say Lexus is increasingly bad at extracting performance out of the same output), I won't be surprised if the Mazda 6 Skyactiv-X can outperform the IS350, especially with 48V hybrid assist. The power-to-weight ratio of IS350 has barely changed, but for some baffling reason it just keeps getting slower with each model year. They essentially made a 315PS car perform as a 260PS car.

Mazda will not have a powertrain that's nearly as powerful as the V35A-FTS V6 let alone hybridized versions of it. The shame is that Mazda will employ Skyactiv-X on a less efficient P2 layout. The very high thermal efficiency of Skyactiv-X makes it a wonderful pair with Toyota's PS hybrid, even though they have full access to THS as an affiliate of TMC.

And yet people thought this will be in the A100 Supra LMAO. BMW (or themselves) is the way to go.

 

[Levi]

And yet people thought this will be in the A100 Supra LMAO. BMW (or themselves) is the way to go.

Toyota can modify the engine as they did with Subaru.

 

[ssun30]

Toyota can modify the engine as they did with Subaru.

Skyactiv-X is tuned for absolute efficiency and runs with very strict parameters to maintain stable compression ignition. The compression ratio is too high and AFR is too lean to extract any more power, maybe 10hp max.

 

[Will1991]

Skyactiv-X is tuned for absolute efficiency and runs with very strict parameters to maintain stable compression ignition. The compression ratio is too high and AFR is too lean to extract any more power, maybe 10hp max.

Even more than the A25A-FXS 41% thermal efficiency? I know they've two different power outputs, just want to compare from a engineering point of view as Toyota managed this with "pretty normal" (next to SkyActic-X) technology.

 

[Levi]

For me the good news is RWD platform as a BMW/Mercedes alternative and more than 4 cylinders.

 

[Gecko]

For me the good news is RWD platform as a BMW/Mercedes alternative and more than 4 cylinders.

No mention of RWD in that article - seems to be AWD only. Sort of shocking based on rumors.

“Powertrain: I6 engine (Gasoline/Diesel/X)/ AWD” While it was expected that a petrol and diesel engine would be spun from the new inline six engine range, some speculation remained as to the role SkyActiv-X spark-controlled compression ignition would play, we now know both regular petrol and SPCCI versions will be made available. At no point does Mazda reference rear-wheel drive, suggesting the new Large range may be all-wheel drive only.

So much for Mazda using Toyota's GA-N or GA-L. But packaging an I6 into what will likely be a modified, modular FWD chassis with added AWD will be very interesting.