Mazda developing new Skyactiv-X / Skyactiv-D inline 6

ssun30

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The problem is what you said , they are two world different strategies,

The Germans doing that because of there own sporty history, so if they start doing somewhat dull engines, there own heritage and there own market recognition allowing them for that which is totally different for the Japanese whom keep making dull cars from the end of 90s except few examples here and there, so now the Japanese need to do performance to shake there own market recognition towards the luxury and sporty line
It has nothing to do with sportiness. It's just about the approach to hybridization and reducing emissions.

Having a higher specific output doesn't suddenly make the engine sportier. By your logic the 2UR-GSE is a dull engine because it 'only' makes 94hp/L. Yes 400hp from 2.0L sounds impressive but it is no more capable (If not less capable) than a 3.0L with 400hp.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Let's please try to keep discussion here to the potential Mazda inline 6 and RWD architecture. Posts on the Mazda e-TPV EV with rotary range extender have been moved to a separate Garage thread discussing the latter.
 

Carmaker1

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The next generation of RWD Mazda cars have been designed and the first are delayed until CY 2022 launch.

For the past decade, Mazda has been studying a return to RWD cars. The Toyota connection might not be such a rumor, as the first car will be likely a four door Mazda MX-6 to replace the Mazda6.

The next CX-5 and CX-9 are expected to ride on this architecture. Not sure how viable that is in terms of a business case, as Mazda's issue is US car dealers. Not really subpar product.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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The next generation of RWD Mazda cars have been designed and the first are delayed until CY 2022 launch.

For the past decade, Mazda has been studying a return to RWD cars. The Toyota connection might not be such a rumor, as the first car will be likely a four door Mazda MX-6 to replace the Mazda6.

The next CX-5 and CX-9 are expected to ride on this architecture. Not sure how viable that is in terms of a business case, as Mazda's issue is US car dealers. Not really subpar product.
@Carmaker1 : Something I've been wondering since I first heard of the Mazda RWD architecture: How much or how little commonality does it have with TNGA-N or GA-L? Could they be one and the same in an attempt to build economies of scale for the new Toyota/Lexus RWD architectures?
 

Carmaker1

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@Carmaker1 : Something I've been wondering since I first heard of the Mazda RWD architecture: How much or how little commonality does it have with TNGA-N or GA-L? Could they be one and the same in an attempt to build economies of scale for the new Toyota/Lexus RWD architectures?
I honestly wonder. I don't trust Toyota to want to compete with Mazda using their own premium architecture, so IDK at times. A delayed NEXT generation IS fits into this though.
 

CRSKTN

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I honestly wonder. I don't trust Toyota to want to compete with Mazda using their own premium architecture, so IDK at times. A delayed NEXT generation IS fits into this though.
If they delay a proper successor to the IS, in order to facilitate Mazda trying to cut costs, I can't see how my next car isn't a porsche or something else. Delayed models + shared componentry with brands like Mazda = Congrats, you went from cutting out your own bold niche to putting yourself on trajectory to be Audi a decade ago.

Looks like Toyota is Akio's focus. Everyone else are second class citizens, or vehicles for vanity projects so he can lounge around with Yacht and Private Jet owners.

/slightly exaggerated take
 

Levi

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If they delay a proper successor to the IS, in order to facilitate Mazda trying to cut costs, I can't see how my next car isn't a porsche or something else. Delayed models + shared componentry with brands like Mazda = Congrats, you went from cutting out your own bold niche to putting yourself on trajectory to be Audi a decade ago.

Looks like Toyota is Akio's focus. Everyone else are second class citizens, or vehicles for vanity projects so he can lounge around with Yacht and Private Jet owners.

/slightly exaggerated take

At least it stays in the country, and unlike Acura and Infiniti, Mazda seems to understand the importance of RWD. But Porsche so much Porsche, it really is the VAG group and they are all related in terms of components. Worse is Mercedes buying Chinese engines (from a German engineering perspective).
 

Carmaker1

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At least it stays in the country, and unlike Acura and Infiniti, Mazda seems to understand the importance of RWD. But Porsche so much Porsche, it really is the VAG group and they are all related in terms of components. Worse is Mercedes buying Chinese engines (from a German engineering perspective).
So happy to be seeing you again on GCF, balancing things out! I hate partisanship.

Aside from that, Acura has some good plans for 2021-23 models, but is it too late honestly? They are not developing a BEV, just TTV6 ICE + AWD.

Nissan brand is getting all the immediate attention for the near future, because it was Carlos Ghosn who set that into motion, after firing Johan de Nysschen in 2014 (for dumping Ghosn's FWD Infiniti EVs in favor of high overhead, high end RWD ICEs).

I have wondered if Toyoda has taken the same outlook at times towards RWD 4 doors, as Ralph Speth and Ratan Tata as my bosses, love the Range, but were immensely pessimistic about the XJ and XF. By domino effect, Tata is responsible for the dour interior and cheap materials on XE & XF.

They rebooted the whole new XJ model program and canned the X360 code for the BEV focused sedan X391. All of my work over 1-2 years, in the trash.

Akio Toyoda is not an entity onto himself, but as CRSKTN said: He values his last name so personally, that the attention Toyota brand gets says so much.

Regarding Lexus, he knows that he cannot use his family name to sell an LC (it offended Eji Toyoda in 1986 to separately create Lexus) or a prestigious image, so therefore LC stays the course.

The GS is a money loser and IS to maybe a lesser degree, so he doesn't bother with them for now. The ES is profitable, but I doubt the profit per unit is comparable to an E-Class or 5-Series. Infiniti dumped the Q70, GS is still here, but a walking corpse.

LS was something they just couldn't get rid of and is the only Japanese car in its segment. It is the flag bearer no matter how you slice it, but it doesn't do enough to provide a special take on Japanese luxury alongside enough tech rivaling its competitors. They are no longer ahead of the curve.

Mazda only abandoned RWD sedans because Ford forced them to shutter Amati in 1992 (internal competition for Lincoln and Jag) and of course the bubble burst. They fought hard to keep to MX-5 in spite of that, but now I wonder if there is truth to the IS/Mark X/Mazda 6 rumors.

Mazda6 or MX-6 is positioned as near luxury, while Lexus sits well above it? Would Mazda and Mark X be like, GT86 and BRZ?

As for VAG, it is funny how the impressive Urus has FWD roots in MLBevo, but masks it with a longitudinal setup and standard AWD. Ditto for Bentayga and Cayenne, plus Q7, Touraeg and Macan.

A lot of folks assume the utilities have a RWD basis like Panamera, 911, and traditional Bentley and Lamborghinis, but nope. Porsche is going to be the one carrying the future of many of these brands with MSB modular RWD (GA-L equivalent), while longitudinal A4 might go transverse on FWD MQB replacement or reuse MLBevo, but well above a refresh like 2021 IS.
 
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Gecko

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I have heard that for all intents and purposes, Toyota has informally "taken over" Mazda, at Mazda's own request. While it would piss me off to see things like GS and IS delayed and deleted, cost sharing with Mazda would probably yield a very attractive portfolio of RWD vehicles across 3 brands in the next 5-10 years.
 

Levi

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I have heard that for all intents and purposes, Toyota has informally "taken over" Mazda, at Mazda's own request. While it would piss me off to see things like GS and IS delayed and deleted, cost sharing with Mazda would probably yield a very attractive portfolio of RWD vehicles across 3 brands in the next 5-10 years.

What we need are Japanses RWD sedans and crossovers. Hopefully by then.
 

spwolf

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I have heard that for all intents and purposes, Toyota has informally "taken over" Mazda, at Mazda's own request.
It doesn't work that way.

As to Mazda, I don't understand what would they do with vehicle in ga-l platform? It would have to be new Mazda 6 but who is the target market? Europe?
 

Gecko

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It doesn't work that way.

As to Mazda, I don't understand what would they do with vehicle in ga-l platform? It would have to be new Mazda 6 but who is the target market? Europe?
Tell me how it works, then? I guess my sources at Toyota are all wrong when they tell me about things like supplier/tech orders, corporate financing, logistics, etc
 

Carmaker1

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It doesn't work that way.

As to Mazda, I don't understand what would they do with vehicle in ga-l platform? It would have to be new Mazda 6 but who is the target market? Europe?
Respectfully, I strongly support Gecko on this. I respect you spwolf, but there are times you've expressed similar skepticism and turned out to be inaccurate,

Many years ago I correctly predicted that Toyota was testing NX in the yet to be revealed 2013 RAV4 in the summer of 2012, in the US desert.

You told me it was just the RAV4 and I looked very foolish, until proven correct down the road.

That vehicle showed itself have a Lexus steering wheel many months later, before any actual prototypes were even seen.


I was able to tell the difference between a cobbled-together mule versus actual RAV4 prototypes, while both were running parallel. ('13 RAV4 was early 2013 release)

Then you claimed that Toyota was testing a Prius V CUV to counteract my claim of a 2017 Nurburgring GA-C CUV mule, being the UX in disguise 2 years ago.

I found out later on, that was the UX wearing a Prius fascia and plastered on NX taillights. I felt stupid and/or gaslighted, plus a few other instances.

Like you in the industry, Gecko has vast professional experience and isn't just a casual observer. None of us can be 100% correct with anything, but a well informed individual often knows what they are talking about and more (do you think he spills everything?).

This is someone that Toyota execs in Torrance called up back in 2003-04 during HS days, for discussing product plans they felt he had no business knowing about regarding 2006-07 models.

Please give him credit here. The idea of playing devil's advocate often and counteracting statements made by some of us that look into the future, can prove very annoying later on if we were very on track.
 

Carmaker1

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I have heard that for all intents and purposes, Toyota has informally "taken over" Mazda, at Mazda's own request. While it would piss me off to see things like GS and IS delayed and deleted, cost sharing with Mazda would probably yield a very attractive portfolio of RWD vehicles across 3 brands in the next 5-10 years.
In 2017 what I noticed is that Mazda had made announcement to a number of low key sources at the end of that year, that they were moving forward with a rear wheel drive platform and it would involve Toyota. It would replace the Mazda6.

At the time in September 2017, no one was sure what was happening for the 2018MY Mazda6. People thought it would be redesigned. A few low key sources and insiders reported that it would be facelifted for 2018 (was already refreshed early 2015 as a 2016), but other sources stated an all-new model would come much later and be shown at Tokyo.

I had to piece both together.

Mazda revealed the Vision Concept sedan that October in Tokyo and then it was mentioned by an Australian news source, that the new Mazda6 was a RWD vehicle echoing many aspects of the Vision.

Considering the amount of time that elapsed between that statement in 2017 to 2020 something tells me that this is likely when some of these decisions were made back then between the companies. Whatever plans they had for the IS would have shifted in 2017 because the level of changes coming definitely need 3 years to execute.

Plans to axe Mark X date back to 2016, which spurned rumors of shift to GA-K in 2017. After 2017, those rumors died down and in 2019, Mazda came up.

I really didn't want to point that out because it does highlight a discrepancy with my own reporting in 2017-18.

I always had a 2020 SOP date from both Lexus China sources (Mandarin), but I moved to 2021 on the basis nothing was happening as of last year with a TNGA vehicle and Japanese rumors of CY2021 (which I didn't really read closely myself).

I got my information from Lexus China sources listing a number of production dates in 2020 and 2021. I looked at Japanese sources, UK and USA. I came up with a few more things, which highlighted processes which concerned timeline goals for individual responsibilities, related to the development program.

One of the stages listed related to design cubing, which was to achieve completion in spring 2018. I identified that as design freeze. The China info was from 2016 and listed only dates and model codes.

I got the NX Canada information from an industry-only database, from 2016. As I did Highlander, Tacoma EOP, and Tundra production dates. And verifying it from other people in entry-mid level employment at Toyota globally.

From this info, I'll be honest and say, 2020 was concrete for me pulling all this info together for IS. CY 2021 for 2022 was purely guesstimate out of insecurity. Only the 2NX changed dates, but it was very hard to go off of, when nothing in some databases was changing with the start of production dates for IS. Yet no test vehicles in 2018-19.

I pretty much stopped trusting those databases as having consistently up-to-date information, but it looks like they were right anyway, but wrong with platform. NX date changed, but IS date never changed from July 2020.

Any of you can tell why I was so pessimistic discussing anything IS, when I suspected it shifted to model year 2022. It meant that contradicted my previous dates, but now little to no proof of 2021 release, other than lack of physical testers running around, no trademarks, and Japanese rumors.

After 2019 closed, I could tell something seriously off was going on regarding IS and chose to just shut up. LE just uncovered it all.

The updated IS definitely had a 2018 design freeze, but the source of this info never explicitly confirmed it was GA-L or GA-N.

The turbo engine is likely going be named IS 300 or there is a new trademark lurking somewhere.

Toyota doesn't care how trademarks are applied anymore. 3.5tt vs LS500 3.5 vs LS350. 2.4t vs IS 300. LS600h vs 4.6L They are taking creative license I imagine.
 

spwolf

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Tell me how it works, then? I guess my sources at Toyota are all wrong when they tell me about things like supplier/tech orders, corporate financing, logistics, etc
Your sources at Toyota HQ Japan?

Took them 20 years to integrate Daihatsu of which they were the minority owner, not sure what do you think they are doing with 5% of Mazda? I dont know of a single thing they actually share so far when it comes to cars, their partnership with Subaru for instance is deeper and they own 16.5% of it and yet there is relly no big Toyota influence there at all aside from 86. Right now for their main technologies, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru and Suzuki are all developing everything separately and I dont see anything shared. Heck even Daihatsu is run still as separate company for now.

Their financial dealings in the US are mostly because Mazda is such a small player there and TFS is trying to diversify and offer their services to 3rd party dealers, etc.

Now I am sure they will share the car or two, but it is really nothing what we would imagine.
 

spwolf

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Respectfully, I strongly support Gecko on this. I respect you spwolf, but there are times you've expressed similar skepticism and turned out to be inaccurate,

Many years ago I correctly predicted that Toyota was testing NX in the yet to be revealed 2013 RAV4 in the summer of 2012, in the US desert.

You told me it was just the RAV4 and I looked very foolish, until proven correct down the road.

....

I was able to tell the difference between a cobbled-together mule versus actual RAV4 prototypes, while both were running parallel. ('13 RAV4 was early 2013 release)

....

Please give him credit here. The idea of playing devil's advocate often and counteracting statements made by some of us that look into the future, can prove very annoying later on if we were very on track.
I am just a human my friend :)

Following Toyota for past 18 years and working for them for quite few of those, I dont see those deep integrations that we would sometimes think normal or expected, and they really do not move fast.

Toyota has informally "taken over" Mazda, at Mazda's own request.
This is very non japanese way of thinking, I am sure Mazda did no such thing.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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i don't pretend to have Gecko, Spwolf or Carmaker1's depth of insider knowledge, but is it possible that Mazda's request for help from Toyota was primarily focused on Mazda's desire for a RWD "Large Architecture" and, maybe, repurposing TNGA-N or GA-L (and perhaps purchasing hybrid components) as opposed to taking over the company as a whole?
 

spwolf

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i don't pretend to have Gecko, Spwolf or Carmaker1's depth of insider knowledge, but is it possible that Mazda's request for help from Toyota was primarily focused on Mazda's desire for a RWD "Large Architecture" and, maybe, repurposing TNGA-N or GA-L (and perhaps purchasing hybrid components) as opposed to taking over the company as a whole?
don't be shy, you are one of the experts here.

when it comes to Mazda, i remember one of their chief engineers said year ago that they do not look at BMW to compare their cars anymore but TNGA vehicles. So not surprising that things are happening there.

Lets not forget that Toyota and Mazda are building a factory together in Alabama that will start producing cars soon - Corolla and unknown Mazda CUV, that will then be TNGA based?

I am also sure they did not ask for help, but that Toyota came with idea to share costs of platform/production, like they did with BMW, Subaru and many other projects. Mazda is great manufacturer that for some reason cant crack US or Chinese market (btw, another proof how similar they are), but they do well worldwide and in Europe they have outsold Honda for quite a while now.
 

Levi

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This could be good thing. I like Mazda, MX-5, RX-7, RX-8, Cosmos (Eunos, Mazda luxury brand, very similar to Lexus SC gen. 1).

This could also be the reason why RX-9 rumors have come back, it could be related to next gen RC if they decide to make one more.
 

Gecko

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From what I have seen, the collaboration between Mazda and Toyota has become much closer privately and we will see it continue to grow closer on a public level with next generation products from both brands. Mazda will remain an independent company, but is looking to Toyota for support and to pool their buying power and manufacturing efficiencies with things like batteries, flexible platforms, supplier and tech selection, and even rolling up some of their shared services under Toyota.

Example here: https://www.autonews.com/finance-insurance/mazda-switch-toyota-financial-services-loans-leases. Then we have the joint plant in Alabama, though Toyota has done similar with BMW, Subaru and others. Plenty of other announcements to google over the last year, anyone can do that.

Mazda has realized that as the industry becomes increasingly expensive with R&D and costs related to alternative powertrains, they cannot do it alone as a small brand. It's very logical to me, to partner with Toyota. Plus a switch to RWD is a big change for their product line and is going to be even more expensive, at a time when they also need to be investing in hybrids, batteries and more. Toyota is in the driver's seat for a lot of their next gen platforms, tech and infrastructure.
 
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