Gecko

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I am not sure how you justify that Lexus needs to be more like the Germans, yet can argue that having 3 car-based crossovers is enough. Crossovers are selling much, much better than sedans, and the German luxury brands (especially Mercedes-Benz and BMW) seemingly have a CUV to meet every niche (both real and imagined) in the market.

Lexus has the subcompact UX, the compact NX and the mid-size RX. MB has those categories covered (GLB, GLC, GLE) plus it has an even smaller model (GLA) and full-size model (GLS), not to mention the crossover coupe models. I have lost track of how many crossovers that BMW offers (my son tried to convince me the other day that there is a BMW X9 model (I don't know -- is there?). If BMW filled every imagined X model niche, it could theoretically have 9 crossover models (assuming my son is correct).

Maybe Lexus does not need to have as many crossovers as the German brands do, but could Lexus be losing customers to the German brands because it is missing a key model in a key market category?
I don't disagree with you, but BBA also don't have GX or LX, so those fill unique niches for Lexus. I think when you look at UX-NX-RX, the one I do see needed above that, as mentioned, is the LF-1. Depending on design, it could serve as a flagship product, 2/3 row crossover, and also compete with the likes of X6, GLE Coupe, Cayenne, etc.
 

Carmaker1

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Having seen some unfairly critical commentary in this thread and a few others, towards those of us voicing credible concerns, I opted not to bother commenting at all again and move on.

I will now say something soon, but due to length it will take some time to review, edit and submit.

My first reaction was to totally agree with you, but then I double-checked my constantly-updated tally of @Carmaker1 future Lexus and Toyota predictions. As of now, the 4th-gen Lexus IS is seemingly scheduled to enter production on July 2020 for the 2021 model year. If this hasn't changed, we could see 4IS make its world debut at Geneva 2019, following on the 2IS world premiere there in 2005.


I totally agree. I think that CT will be a one-generation wonder just like HS was. Let me put it another way: I'd be royally pissed if resources and manpower sorely needed for updating all of Lexus' SUV and crossover lineup bar UX, doing something about IS and updating the flagship cars (all higher priorities) were instead diverted towards developing a hardly-necessary 2CT.


While 3IS was introduced at the 2013 Detroit Auto Show, IS-related launches have happened all over the world (2IS in Geneva, 3IS refresh in Beijing).


Sadly, this seems to be one of the delayed Lexus SUVs and crossovers. Per @Carmaker1 , 2NX was originally on roughly the same timetable as 4IS I cited in my first reply above, but has now been pushed back a year, until the 2021 calendar year / 2022 model year. Possible delays in setting up Canadian NX production (once predicted for September 2019 but, in fact, officially confirmed for early 2022) may be a factor.
I had stated months ago that the next generation IS is a 2022 model (but...😳😳😳🤬).

I imagine that got lost in one of my very long posts (but wow!)
 
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Ian Schmidt

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Hybrids, plugins and alternative fuels are the other part.

At this point, nobody can write off Tesla as a joke or failed experiment anymore. People want electric, and Lexus has nothing to offer.
Writing off Tesla is not the same as writing off plugins, hybrids, or BEVs. Tesla was widely rumored to be in danger of missing payroll until they rushed the Cybertruck reveal ahead and started taking in deposits. Elon is the new Wimpy: he'll ship you something in 2025 for a deposit today.

And if you hate what Lexus is doing, Tesla has concentrated their software efforts on jokey pranks and expanded entertainment options (you can drive while watching Netflix!) while refusing to offer Apple CarPlay or Android Auto. Or to fix Autopilot attempting to forcibly mate the cars with emergency vehicles.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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I had stated months ago that the next generation IS is a 2022 model (but...😳😳😳🤬).

I imagine that got lost in one of my very long posts (but wow!)
Sorry, I did totally miss that. Let me edit my long-running list of TNGA future unveilings.
 

Carmaker1

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Sorry, I did totally miss that. Let me edit my long-running list of TNGA future unveilings.
No, no. Please don't do that. You'll be shocked at what's actually (possibly) happening. I don't want to give it away, I'll let our messenger do that in IS thread.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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No, no. Please don't do that. You'll be shocked at what's actually (possibly) happening. I don't want to give it away, I'll let our messenger do that in IS thread.
I already read the IS thread. I won't go into it here (keep the discussion in the IS thread) but let's just say that I'm flabbergasted. I certainly didn't expect that one...
 

mikeavelli

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NX came out in 2014, so pushing to 2021 as a 2022MY makes it a 7 year product cycle... RX came out in 2015, and seems to be on schedule for 2022 reveal as 2023 model year (7 years). If Lexus was wise, they would have launched NX this year as 2021, which gives breathing room between a 2021 NX and 2023 RX. Highlander, Rav4 and TNGA-K are all out now, so the foundation and most of the R&D for these vehicles has been available for some time - not sure why this all seems to be taking so long. Lexus used to work on 5 year product cycles but they've been getting longer and longer - while the competition is moving faster. There is little excuse for this.

I cannot speak to sales of other electric CUVs. Here, Audi eTron is selling very well but last I heard, EQC was delayed. Hard to speak for Genesis when their lineup has no CUVs, and their first one is still a year away. I think the brand has the viability and investment to be a key player, but their product planning has also been shortsighted with only sedans in a CUV market.

Who is asking for ES Prime? Is that a serious question? ES is Lexus' highest volume sedan - do you not think a plugin 300hp version with 40 miles of range would fly off shelves? People still are unsure of battery tech and yet Lexus has the highest perceived reliability by many. Lexus + plug-in/BEV would be a combination that could rival Tesla, mostly because the tech is seen as unproven but there is high trust for Lexus. It seems that Audi and others have enough of a jump start that their technology will likely be perfected and reliable by the time Lexus gets something viable to market.

ES "Prime" with AWD could be a truly game changing vehicle for Lexus, and kill two birds with one stone: plugin/high efficiency, and sporty with great acceleration.
ES sales dropped last year. Not a big drop but still it’s only a year old. So that car needs something.Offer a hybrid F-Sport. A plug in.
I like the ES Prime idea.
 

Sulu

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ES sales dropped last year. Not a big drop but still it’s only a year old. So that car needs something.Offer a hybrid F-Sport. A plug in.
I like the ES Prime idea.
The ES sales drop may not be because it is a bad car or a bad design; it may have dropped because of the ever increasing interest and demand for CUVs and SUVs, and decreasing demand for sedans. What I am saying is that offering more variations of the ES may not help its sales.
 

spwolf

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ES sales dropped last year. Not a big drop but still it’s only a year old. So that car needs something.Offer a hybrid F-Sport. A plug in.
I like the ES Prime idea.
ES sales actually went up last year, not down from 48.4k to 51.3k.

Not bad in CUV world... they are going to work on ES in the US since it is being built in local factory and they have to keep it utilize capacity.

In general, this will end up likely being the best selling ES in history since it has expanded to all markets globally so sedan demise in USA wont affect it as much.
 

spwolf

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I don't disagree with you, but BBA also don't have GX or LX, so those fill unique niches for Lexus. I think when you look at UX-NX-RX, the one I do see needed above that, as mentioned, is the LF-1. Depending on design, it could serve as a flagship product, 2/3 row crossover, and also compete with the likes of X6, GLE Coupe, Cayenne, etc.
if you want Lexus to follow the Germans, they are missing at least 3 SUVs. Cant cop-out now :)

LF-1 being a flagship product, it will sell in numbers larger than LS but nowhere close of RX... they need also large 3 row CUV because no, LF-1 can not compete with X6 and at the same time have large 3 rows (??), they also need something smaller than UX and one that transcends categories - like NX that is more rugged.

LX will never be for US market and it will never be significantly different vehicle - they sell too many middle east, russia, etc.
 

Gecko

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if you want Lexus to follow the Germans, they are missing at least 3 SUVs. Cant cop-out now :)

LF-1 being a flagship product, it will sell in numbers larger than LS but nowhere close of RX... they need also large 3 row CUV because no, LF-1 can not compete with X6 and at the same time have large 3 rows (??), they also need something smaller than UX and one that transcends categories - like NX that is more rugged.

LX will never be for US market and it will never be significantly different vehicle - they sell too many middle east, russia, etc.
You are making a lot of assumptions and adding a lot of your own information to my posts lately 😉

As I recently stated, I do not see any reason for Lexus to chase the Germans downmarket to cars like 1 series, CLA, A Class, or anything under UX. In an interview about the LF-1 some time ago, one of the designers or engineers mentioned that most people want 3 rows in CUVs, even if they don't use them, so they were considering doing a small shotgun style third row, so TBD. So to your point, no, it would not be three large rows. I think that with TNGA-K, they can squeeze more room out of the RX L next time around, if they choose to go that route with a three row CUV.

Agreed re: LX.
 

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Now I am ready to say something about what I read in this thread and quite a few others that seemed unfairly critical of people expressing VALID concerns about the future of this brand and what seems to be much more attention being given to the Toyota brand side of things.

It is very easy to accuse a number of us of being blindly negative and using "sales" and etc as an excuse to "bash" the brand when that is not the intention of any of us. There is something called constructive feedback.

I extremely resent the condescending tone being espoused towards those of us who happen to be gearheads, in the respect that we love traditional, petrol-powered ICE vehicles and would've liked for Lexus during the past decade, to have gone where their competition was going and offer more choices and configurations in their product line.

We are the enthusiasts, who are people that will buy a credible top notch effort, if it meets the right targets. When some of the general public sees these halo vehicles in person or an social mediq, does that not help get them into the dealer showroom? As in someone who just might settle for a lower spec version of what nameplate we have or cheaper model, because that F car is unattainable, but maybe a IS300 F-Sport or ES 350 will do?

I also really do not appreciate it when those of us who happen to be enthusiasts are written off in the manner of people who would be like the average contrarian hipster on Jalopnik or The Truth About Cars, that pines and whines after the least popular configuration of vehicle, for the sake of being seen as a "different" so that they can feel special. Some stupidly convoluted cult of Automotive Darwinism.

At the prices people pay for these Lexus vehicles, there is NO reason for them to continue settling for old technology and not have the right to complain about wanting something better and more current, without being criticized for daring to question who is running things.

Or have a limited choice in having luxury features in a sporty trim (look at an M-Sport 750i or S63 AMG that can have all the luxury within it too). Is there a reason F-Sport should mean "compromised" in so many cases? Look at the choices offered IS, GS, and LS F-Sport cars in terms having to make sacrifices, thanks to poorly thought out packages designed to cut costs above everything.

Also, if they are not intent on keeping some of their product up-to-date or competitive, then be prepared to start lowering MSRPs or throwing in the incentives, as your vehicles are further outmatched by your market competition.

Until this past week, I almost didn't log into LE ever again upon reading some things that could've easily been directed at me, as if I was an immature pubescent, who didn't know any better about how the very industry I work in operates.

Lexus is easily where it is because of a difficult executive board at Toyota, a CEO who doesn't want be in a position of fighting with difficult colleagues all the time & makes compromises for shareholder interest, and an ineffective brand president who has since been replaced, but not soon enough to make an immediate effect.

We once had something to be immensely positive about in the early days of LE, because we expected Lexus to deliver on near everything coming off the high of the the amazingly innovative 4th gen LS, the off the walls LFA, the LF-LC Concept, Spindle Grille reinvention, grand promises were made for the future 5th generation LS, new IS sized coupe, new compact CUVs, GS-F, and timely redesigns expected in shift to a new modular platform across different model lines.

People were patient and hoped with the LC500 and new LS coming, the new modular architectures would bring new powertrains (competitive & fuel efficient), massive improvements, new class leading interfaces, and all kinds of things would gradually migrate across the lineup, to make up for what couldn't be done in the early-mid 2010s and was respectfully understood by the majority.

Well, a lot of that just didn't happen, did it? And we people are supposed to swallow that again, after a decade of hopes & promises? No freaking thank you, so please don't insult us nor our intelligence, if we bring up valid points. Lexus personnel already do that to a degree officially, by condescendingly brushing off any possible concerns as molehill.

I have said enough honestly, because I've lost patience in taking an interest in a brand, that doesn't want to stay on their toes and be their absolute best.

A pet project in the LC-F is not going to fix that nor did the one-off LFA. A consistently flowing volume line up of excellent product does that. From CT to LX. Top to bottom. I know they can do it.

I had MANY shares in Nissan, in which my family and I each cut loose last year, in sensing a significant collapse in value (which did happen eventually). Infiniti was a deciding factor 15 years ago when my father originally invested in Nissan.

Infiniti is a shadow of what it was in 2005 and we got tired of seeing or hearing about so many future products, that never hit the dealer floor. Infiniti is a revolving door of employees because of this. Everything there has taken a Nissan brand focus and scarily Toyota is almost echoing that.

I can only hope the appointment of the brilliant LC chief engineer, Koji Sato, can make a turnaround over the next 3-5 years and do things that his 2 predecessors couldn't for Lexus.

But I am not going to wait and see. I have a life and I don't like getting invested in things, which produce little to no results.

I left Jaguar because I didn't want to work at Land Rover branch solely instead and I felt all the work I did was going nowhere.

I give Lexus until end of 2021 to meet all my targets (on new & future product on deck at that very time) or will just move on altogether and not look back as I did with Jaguar and Infiniti.
 
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Let's not jump the gun just yet. I agree that Lexus is slow to produce change in their vehicle lineups, but the RX and ES still outperform their competitors. Perhaps the thinking from the top was too focused on "sporty", rather than luxury with a sporty driving experience. When I look at the Genesis, that is what I see, a strong focus on luxury but with a sporty driving experience. The build quality of Lexus is second to none, they still produce the most reliable cars for sure, but cutting corners by using plastics and not getting on board by supporting Android was a mistake and buyers simply went to the other car makers to get those features. Lexus allowed the Genesis G80 sport to be what the GS should be. The GS is still a solid vehicle, but when compared to the G80 it comes up a little short on the luxury end. Having said that I would still buy a GS over the G80 because I know I would have a worry free, reliable vehicle for years to come, I can't say the same for the G80 and furthermore Lexus vehicles hold their value over the competition. Other car makers load up their vehicles with a whole lot of new techie stuff in a rush to market and reliability goes down the tube. Lexus still has the winning recipe they just need step it up some. The 2019-20 ES is moving in right direction, the IS needs a good-make over, but Lexus should never mimic other cars, because it's already established it's on identity and it's solid.
 
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bogglo

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There was a time when on this forum there was always something to talk about. Now not so much just hopes and dreams. I think Toyota is becoming Jack of all trade master of none. They are investing in too much stuff that what made them who they are is starting to suffer.

I still cant see my self in any other car manufacturer vehicles because of piece of mind. But, Lexus needs to wake their ass up. Exciting news from Toyota use to mean something better is coming to Lexus. Nowadays not so much. All we keep hearing is Toyota is adding this while Lexus is killing that.

No matter how sporty the ES become, it will never be a GS/IS. How can the executives approve the Mirai and think is sensible to cancel the GS. It makes no damn sense. Lexus need to leave their line up alone. None of the cars need to be axed, what lexus need to do right now is put the same effort and more like they did in 07 and 08 (GS450h, GS/IS350, LS460, GS460/IS F etc).
 
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It's the same reason some brands try to get exposure to young kids through media and other vectors. You think Porsche, BMW, or others don't want young kids growing up, choosing those cars in whatever racing game they're playing, and growing up having those cars etched in their minds as desirable?

Why does Juul advertise to kids? Why does anyone? "Get them hooked young".
Look at Star Wars. Look at how many adults continue to pour money into their offerings, even when subpar, because of nostalgia.

Lexus was on a good roll when they started becoming more stylish and sportier, but if they don't give people something to be excited about, why would anyone hold Lexus in higher regard than other brands which have done a better job of capturing imaginations?

Just because a weak lineup doesn't hurt Lexus now, doesn't mean it can't hurt it in the future.
I think I fit into this category quite well...

As someone who is going to graduate college soon in and is a prospective Toyota/Lexus buyer, I was attracted to this forum as a means to plan out my purchase. My heart became set on eventually owning a Lexus after the release of the LFA (with its gorgeous exhaust note) and it is still my dream car today. I was only starting middle school back then and my heart was captivated! Later, I desired the pre-facelift iterations of the 3rd-gen IS and 4th-gen GS when they started shifting towards the spindle grille. (Additionally, I am not new to Toyota at all; my family has owned a multitude of Camrys (they live up to their dependable/reliable reputation)).

With the introduction of the stunning LC and the (late) redesign of the LS, Lexus provided some renewed hope that it was still going in the right direction. After the gut-wrenching release of the second generation Mirai, I was stunned and taken aback. I agree with many of the sentiments that have already been expressed by others in this forum (especially @Carmaker1 ). Now, my dwindle of hope has waned (but I still hold on). For the first time in my enthusiasm for Lexus, I have actually started looking back rather than daydreaming about what the future holds as I have searched out low-mileage pre-facelift 3rd-gen IS and 4th-gen GS as potential purchases (instead of waiting out and saving up for well-executed redesigns). I still hold some hope for the next generation IS (as the GS seems to have breathed its final breath), but if Lexus doesn't nail this...I am not quite sure what I'll do. I would love to own the halo vehicles of Lexus, but I simply will not earn that type of money any time soon.

I know this echoes a lot of what many others have said, but I just wanted to write this out in hopes of proving that the current decisions Lexus makes does have a major impact on the company's future.

EDIT: I apologize for straying from the original article, but I thought it would be fitting to post here.
 

mediumhot

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I had a brief run in automotive industry as interior bits and pieces designer (trimmings to be precise) and let me tell you that it has nothing to do with expressing your creativity. If you are a designer who thrives on rhythm flow to get into the zone and make killer delivery, automotive design industry is not for you. Besides many technical constraints you are presented in order to solve something there is always that unpredictive factor - management higher up guys. You would think they are the ones with most common sense due to experience in the industry but the truth is they are just scared, they are what they are because they have sucked up into "company culture" so bad they simply can't deliver outside the box/culture. It's a false comfort zone they perceive as something that has brought the success to the company so they better not fiddle with it cause it could go bad. And then it all goes to ruins. Yes I was in Mitsubishi long before it went to ruins but I wasn't surprised. When I was there Mitsubishi has already dropped the ball on automotive design compared to what they did in '90s so I give them a pass on that but I've seen driving technologies being developed and dropped that no premium manufacturer offers even today. They didn't even try to license it to big boys or anyone else, they just dropped it.
 

mediumhot

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@mediumhot , could you elaborate a bit more on driving technologies?
Yeah, one thing I've witnessed were advancements in Active Yaw Control or torque vectoring. What you saw in Evo was maybe a one third of capability or even less, I don't know if that technology ended up in Dakar or somewhere but it was tested on a road car and many were stoked about it. It was visceral. Other thing that I've only heard about as rumors were electric turbos and twin scroll turbos, that was 15 years ago btw. Also quite an interesting story about Twin Clutch SST, it was manufactured and codevelopd by Getrag but the in-house team that worked on the firmware has worked around the clock for years to make it right, those guys were absolute freaks and winners. I heard they all got laid off and were picked up by few different companies, that's also what happened to most of the rally and sport crew as well. They were the big part why Mitsubishi was a world leader in AWD technologies as well as turbochargers and I'm quite confident they could have taken that title for dual clutch transmissions as well if the whole company didn't crumble.

Back in the day I really fantasied about Toyota somehow approaching Mitsu to reskin Evo X for some Lexus entry sports coupe with Toyota engine, I even have witnesses to my fantasies :) But back then press would simply devour Toyota/Lexus for doing so. Today decade and a half later no one gives a crap about that. Weird times.
 

spwolf

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I give Lexus until end of 2021 to meet all my targets (on new & future product on deck at that very time) or will just move on altogether and not look back as I did with Jaguar and Infiniti.
I wonder if LF-1 will tickle your fancy.

I moved on to Audi A7 since I could not find appropriate Lexus in my market, and I cant say I am too happy with the move right now.
 

yiantony

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Their sales figures have nothing to do with GS, F, or LED turn signals. They don't have enough crossovers and are caught unprepared as competitors fill every size segment of crossover possible.
It doesn't have a direct impact but it's a sign of the company saving cost at everywhere possible. All kinds of things like these slowly turn away potential buyers. They don't invest in new models, don't invest in building/upgrading better infotainment system, don't even invest in Led turn signals. This might not be a good example but people are not going to buy a flip phone after using iPhone or Android, no matter how good this flip phone looks or works.
 
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