Lexus Racing Megathread

[DarkSpace6383]

It becomes Lexus RX RR Morizo, like the LBX RR Morizo.

After all there was a rumour from BestCar the high performance variant of the next-gen RX is in development currently and will be called RX RR Morizo

Yup. F probably becomes Morizo RR or something. Still better than GR, but I am indifferent to it.

I am not defending anything but the data is there, People don’t buy a performance Lexus. Caddy has this issue, infiniti and acura did volvo etc. Lexus and Caddy might have tried and succeeded the most but still pale in comparison to Germans I am well aware the investment wasn’t there as my LC has the same old engine lol.

That said, do you are sales doubling with new engines and cars? We know how people buy badges and Germans will dominate seemingly no matter what. So i assume after tons of data the decision was made to launch a new Sports brand and that will get investment. Lexus USA tried very hard to show what we had. I was a part of that. Some of my greatest accomplishments are now ending in maybe my greatest failure. I personally feel I didn’t do enough.

Look no one wants to bash their head into a wall or throw themselves in front a bus more than me. I’ve dedicated a very significant portion of my life and money into being a Lexus Performance Enthusiast and Ambassador. It is not easy for me to suddenly pivot or be all smiles. I know it’s business and over time hopefully it all makes sense. I am at happy we are getting GR instead of nothing.

July this year is 30 years of ownership and for the first time I don’t have a new Lexus to move up to. So trust me I’m also processing things as you all are. It is tough and that should be expected

It never felt like a marketing exercise. The fact is Lexus's F cars always lacked speed and agility relative to the germans. It wasn't a big muscular boat with a million hp like the Americans, and they weren't as light, agile, fast, or powerful like the Germans. As a result, they struggled to gain traction. What they needed from there was an ability to iterate and make the product better. Cadillac's performance brand is starting to gain traction. Why? Because they STUCK WITH IT and they MADE IMPROVEMENTS. I think we will see with Genesis that they will be able to get closer to the big 3 compared to what lexus has been able to do. I don't think you should beat yourself up. Marketing and awareness exercises can only go so far when the fundamental product is old and uncompetitive. I have massive amounts of respect for your efforts to try and save the dying brand. I agree that GR is better than nothing, but there is absolutely no reason for it to be that way given that TMC is arguably the largest and most powerful automotive company in the world. I think with new cars sales will see an improvement. The fact is the brand, for the most part, needs a fundamental rethink. Their Toyota+ philosophy will allow them to survive for now, but as other companies start to also invest more heavily in hybrids, Lexus could begin to struggle. Companies will start taking customers way because their products are simply better.

This was fought for for years internally. Lexus Racing USA was showcasing our best racing and our fans and enthusiasts. Japan decided GR is the wave. Again I understand the disappointment from a Lexus enthusiast perspective. We had a great run. Business strategies change and obviously this is a major one with not just GR but Century coming. I believe GR will get the investment many of you are saying F didn’t get.

Who knows maybe a change in direction comes back. For now F is dead and GR is what’s up

I think investment is one thing (and it will obviously be larger since it's also usurping the Toyota stuff. The fact is, I think GR will do okay in Toyota products, and decently in the proper GR products. However, I think the Lexus stuff will fall on it's face, because while GR's brand name can rival the corvette name pretty well, it is unable to rival the Porsche, BMW M, and Mercedes AMG. Lexus F, if given the right investment, had the potential to challenge this. GR is simply too diluted a brand to be able to do so. The idea of having your 80k "GR Lexus" share it's badge with a 30k "Toyota Corolla Cross GR Sport" a hard sell imo. GR will do well on the lower end, and also maybe with GR GT it will also be good (given the fact that a 350k mustang and 250k chevy exist), and believe me, I am happy it exists as a way to launch the GR Brand. It competes well in the supercar killer category, but under no circumstances is it a successor to a full fledged high-end car like the LFA. That, unfortunately, will be the BEV replacement. If they want to fight the germans on the top-end seriously, it needs to be badged as a Lexus F, or a Lexus something else. It CANNOT share its badging with a Toyota.

 

[mikeavelli]

Yup. F probably becomes Morizo RR or something. Still better than GR, but I am indifferent to it.

It never felt like a marketing exercise. The fact is Lexus's F cars always lacked speed and agility relative to the germans. It wasn't a big muscular boat with a million hp like the Americans, and they weren't as light, agile, fast, or powerful like the Germans. As a result, they struggled to gain traction. What they needed from there was an ability to iterate and make the product better. Cadillac's performance brand is starting to gain traction. Why? Because they STUCK WITH IT and they MADE IMPROVEMENTS. I think we will see with Genesis that they will be able to get closer to the big 3 compared to what lexus has been able to do. I don't think you should beat yourself up. Marketing and awareness exercises can only go so far when the fundamental product is old and uncompetitive. I have massive amounts of respect for your efforts to try and save the dying brand. I agree that GR is better than nothing, but there is absolutely no reason for it to be that way given that TMC is arguably the largest and most powerful automotive company in the world. I think with new cars sales will see an improvement. The fact is the brand, for the most part, needs a fundamental rethink. Their Toyota+ philosophy will allow them to survive for now, but as other companies start to also invest more heavily in hybrids, Lexus could begin to struggle. Companies will start taking customers way because their products are simply better.

I think investment is one thing (and it will obviously be larger since it's also usurping the Toyota stuff. The fact is, I think GR will do okay in Toyota products, and decently in the proper GR products. However, I think the Lexus stuff will fall on it's face, because while GR's brand name can rival the corvette name pretty well, it is unable to rival the Porsche, BMW M, and Mercedes AMG. Lexus F, if given the right investment, had the potential to challenge this. GR is simply too diluted a brand to be able to do so. The idea of having your 80k "GR Lexus" share it's badge with a 30k "Toyota Corolla Cross GR Sport" a hard sell imo. GR will do well on the lower end, and also maybe with GR GT it will also be good (given the fact that a 350k mustang and 250k chevy exist), and believe me, I am happy it exists as a way to launch the GR Brand. It competes well in the supercar killer category, but under no circumstances is it a successor to a full fledged high-end car like the LFA. That, unfortunately, will be the BEV replacement. If they want to fight the germans on the top-end seriously, it needs to be badged as a Lexus F, or a Lexus something else. It CANNOT share its badging with a Toyota.

Rome was not built in a day. M started with one car. AMG wasn’t an official arm of Benz till the late 90s i believe. RS also had one car. They took over 40 years to get to this point.

It sounds like GR will be a focused sports vehicle effort. I’m excited for it.

 

[Kelvin2020]

In the future, will GR sales be counted as part of Lexus sales figures, or will they still be recorded under Toyota? If they’re not included in Lexus sales, how exactly does Lexus benefit from selling GR products through its dealership network?

 

[DarkSpace6383]

In the future, will GR sales be counted as part of Lexus sales figures, or will they still be recorded under Toyota? If they’re not included in Lexus sales, how exactly does Lexus benefit from selling GR products through its dealership network?

its like porsche and audi sharing a dealership i think. they will be counted as GR sales.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

Rome was not built in a day. M started with one car. AMG wasn’t an official arm of Benz till the late 90s i believe. RS also had one car. They took over 40 years to get to this point.

It sounds like GR will be a focused sports vehicle effort. I’m excited for it.

They should've had this mentality with F. I think GR will succeed on the lower end, but it will flunk on the higher end. Not because it isn't recognizable, but because it lacks a fundamental degree of prestige and "upper class". My issue is the breadth upon which the brand exists. There is a reason why most luxury products from non-luxury companies fail. Same story here.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

It is being reported that GR products will exclusively be sold as Lexus dealers. Thank god it's not some Toyota/Lexus split situation.

 

[Falcon]

They told us this from day 1. GR is an independent brand that is positioned above Toyota and below Lexus.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

It is being reported that GR products will exclusively be sold as Lexus dealers. Thank god it's not some Toyota/Lexus split situation.

Or better yet, the Scion disaster as I remember from the early-2000s.

I bought a brand new shiny 2ZZ-GE Corolla XRS with 180 HP in 2004 (2005 model year) and was supposed to be the car for the youth. A great all around car and then Toyota launches the Scion brand in the same year. Suddenly, the Scion TC with a Camry 2.4 Liter engine was competing for the same sales. Everyone was saying 'Toyota is for old people and Scion is for the young generation seeking sporty cars'. Scion was supposed to be the entry level brand that got youth interested in owning a Toyota later in life when they could afford a more expensive car, but the perception was that Scion was the youth brand and Toyota was for old people. The TC was vastly inferior to the Corolla XRS in every measurable way, but the perception through branding ate away the sales. Everyone would ask me 'hey why did not go for the much cheaper Scion TC model that is supposed to be the sporty brand'.

Funny how Corolla XRS now is highly appreciated and sought after. There were only 6000 made. Used, good examples are going for 3x or 4x times the price of what a Corolla CE, LE or S of the same year is selling for. Mine got hail damaged unfortunately, but I absolutely loved that car. One of the best Toyotas ever made.

 

[Gor134]

The first gen Scion tC has to be one of the most underwhelming compact cars I've ever driven.

I don't even want to call it a sport compact because there was nothing sporty feeling about it at all

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

The first gen Scion tC has to be one of the most underwhelming compact cars I've ever driven.

I don't even want to call it a sport compact because there was nothing sporty feeling about it at all

Yeah, exactly. It was effectively a shorter wheelbase and 2 door Toyota Avensis mid-sized sedan with a Camry engine in it. However, it confused the heck out of the consumers because they were marketing it as a sporty compact car to compete in the Civic SI, Sentra SE-R Spec V space when the Corolla XRS was truly the one competing in that space. The marketing made it look like Scion was the high performance brand while Toyota was the old, boring and dull brand. In reality, Scion was merely created to get the gen Y young crowd at affordable price with lots of flashy customization options. It failed pretty badly, but in the process ended up hurting Toyota's image as well.

What the point I was trying to make was, Lexus has something to learn from the failure of Scion. Whenever a spin-off brand is not marketed properly and has a proper distinction from the parent brand, it can end up confusing both the marketing teams as well as the target demographics.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

Yeah, exactly. It was effectively a shorter wheelbase and 2 door Toyota Avensis mid-sized sedan with a Camry engine in it. However, it confused the heck out of the consumers because they were marketing it as a sporty compact car to compete in the Civic SI, Sentra SE-R Spec V space when the Corolla XRS was truly the one competing in that space. The marketing made it look like Scion was the high performance brand while Toyota was the old, boring and dull brand. In reality, Scion was merely created to get the gen Y young crowd at affordable price with lots of flashy customization options. It failed pretty badly, but in the process ended up hurting Toyota's image as well.

What the point I was trying to make was, Lexus has something to learn from the failure of Scion. Whenever a spin-off brand is not marketed properly and has a proper distinction from the parent brand, it can end up confusing both the marketing teams as well as the target demographics.

THIS. Absolutely. That's why Lexus GR trims will suffer. You are giving cars that aren't proper GRs the GR branding (Rav4, probably future Lexus cars, etc.) It confuses consumers in the AMG, BMW M, Audi Sport, and Porsche Segment.


In the latter half of this video, Kirk Kreifels covers the news regarding ALL GR products being sold at Lexus dealers. The SVP of TMC North America states that the GR GT is not designed to rival the european supercars but instead is more of a premium-enough performance car that prioritizes rawness and driver engagement. GR GT mainly guns for things like the Corvette Z06/ZR1, and upcoming Genesis V8 supercar.

This reveals the purpose of the GR brand in general (premium rather than luxurious, and very raw + engaging). Consequentially, it also reveals the fact that there is still a massive hole for a car, or even a whole sub-brand, that DOES cater to the European performance-luxury consumer. That is where a hybrid LFA and a complete revival of the F-brand should've come in. Not as a value proposition, but as a genuine BMW M and MERCEDES AMG Killer, with the LFA in particular targetting the upcoming GT2RS.

 

[Gor134]

That's why Lexus GR trims will suffer. You are giving cars that aren't proper GRs the GR branding (Rav4, probably future Lexus cars, etc.)

Eh?

Lexus isn't getting GR trims.

GR Sport is nothing different from M Sport, AMG Line, S-Linem etc.

GR Products will be sold at Lexus dealerships until they have an established line of models to start to separate the dealers, similar to how half of Genesis stores are still inside Hyundai but now starting to separate.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

Eh?

Lexus isn't getting GR trims.

GR Sport is nothing different from M Sport, AMG Line, S-Linem etc.

GR Products will be sold at Lexus dealerships until they have an established line of models to start to separate the dealers, similar to how half of Genesis stores are still inside Hyundai but now starting to separate.

Lexus is getting GR Trims. Mike Avelli just confirmed it. Lexus F is dead.

GR Sport is different because it is being badged on a Toyota in addition to being badged on a Lexus. It basically devalues the whole brand.

 

[Gor134]

Where did Mike confirm Lexus getting GR trims

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

Where did Mike confirm Lexus getting GR trims

I think he/she means the GR brand is diluted by offering GR line products in the Toyota utilitarian products like RAV4 etc. It is going to trickle up to Lexus as GR brand is supposed to be a sub-brand of Lexus supposedly.

 

[Gor134]

But those GR Line of products have been offered longer than GR-exclusive cars have been, there's no dilution if this has always been a thing.

Toyota Launches New "GR" Sports Car Series in Japanese Market | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) announces the launch of the new "GR" sports car series. The "G Sports (G's)" sports conversion car series has until now served as a key component in initiatives to fuel excitement around sports car culture in Japan. Now, TMC has revolutionized the G's series by...

global.toyota

 

[DarkSpace6383]

But those GR Line of products have been offered longer than GR-exclusive cars have been, there's no dilution if this has always been a thing.
View attachment 11014

Toyota Launches New "GR" Sports Car Series in Japanese Market | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) announces the launch of the new "GR" sports car series. The "G Sports (G's)" sports conversion car series has until now served as a key component in initiatives to fuel excitement around sports car culture in Japan. Now, TMC has revolutionized the G's series by...

global.toyota

im saying the upper gr stuff gets diluted if they start badging lexus stuff as gr.

 

[bogglo]

IMO, anything less powerful than the current RCF should stay in Toyota showroom and that's including the Supra.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

IMO, anything less powerful than the current RCF should stay in Toyota showroom and that's including the Supra.

No that makes it worse. It just confuses the idea of Toyotas performance stuff even more.

 

[mediumhot]

They just cant catch a break. Lexus was on its way to podium and then it hit Ferrari hypercar.