spwolf

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It would make sense for 300hp 2.4l turbo to show up in some markets for LS, as well as 3.5tt hybrid being a new LS600h.

Sensors are lidar, as expected and they mention it works be level 2 and upgradable to level 3, and they need new lidar sensors for that.

Engineers need to overcome their distaste for special market vehicles, so for instance anyone wants to imagine what would be journalist response to LS700h+ with 500hp+ and 30 mile range that would give it some crazy 80mpg?

Nobody will care that you need to plug it every 50 miles to get this performance, and nobody will bother with calculating mpg after those 30 miles.
 

Sulu

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I am not convinced that a turbocharged engine is a good fit for a series-parallel -- power-split device (PSD) -- hybrid vehicle, as all Toyota and Lexus hybrids are.

I can understand using a turbocharged engine in a strictly parallel hybrid system (as the German automakers use), where the electric drive is used to accelerate the vehicle from stop and then assist the (downsized) engine while accelerating, but the engine then runs without electric assist at higher speeds. In this single electric motor parallel hybrid system, there is a more direct relationship between throttle position and engine rpm.

But you do not need a turbocharged engine in a series hybrid system, where an electric motor drives the vehicle and the engine is just used, running at a low, constant rpm, to recharge the battery; in a series hybrid vehicle, the aim is to minimize fuel consumption. PSD hybrids incorporate this drive mode.

PSD hybrids are not like the single electric motor hybrids, in which the electric motor assists the internal combustion engine; in single motor hybrids, the ICE is the primary power source and the electric motor assists. It can be argued that in dual electric motor PSD hybrids, in which the electric motor is constantly running (and always maintaining vehicle speed), the ICE assists the electric motor; in dual motor PSD hybrids (as all Toyota and Lexus hybrids are), the electric motor is the primary power source and the ICE assists.

PSD hybrids remove the direct relationship between throttle position and engine rpm, even in parallel hybrid mode; PSD hybrids have the engine running at constant rpm, balancing the power that is available to assist the electric drive motor by sharing any unneeded power with the generator -- the more ICE assist power needed, the less power is shared with the generator. The aim with PSD hybrids, that run the engine at a constant rpm, is to minimize fuel consumption.

But the aim of a turbocharged engine is to allow a smaller engine to run harder, to burn more fuel, to produce more power. Producing more power is nice, but at the cost of greater engine pressures, causing greater fuel consumption and greater engine wear? Was it not the aim -- even if it was not the primary aim -- of a PSD hybrid, to share the power load between internal combustion engine and electric drive, thereby lessening pressures on the engine, reducing engine wear and lessening fuel consumption?

Could there be other methods for increasing the effective power of the hybrid powertrain?

What about increasing the power of the electric drive motor (that may involve increasing battery capacity to ensure that there is enough electrical power available to drive the more powerful motor, which may mean that a plug-in hybrid, with its larger capacity battery, is the way to go, so give us LS 700h+)? Or coupling the PSD with a multi-speed transmission (as has already been done) to allow for torque multiplication (and faster off-the-line acceleration) in low gear and an overdrive gear for greater efficiency at high speeds?
 

internalaudit

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Don't know about the eCVT/PSD, but how about supercharging it?


So why can't you just slap an electric blower on your conventional car? It turns out, incorporating an e-supercharger requires extremely complex engine management. And building up no-lag boost with an e-blower requires plenty of electric power—far more than your conventional car's 12-volt system can provide.
 

maiaramdan

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It would make sense for 300hp 2.4l turbo to show up in some markets for LS, as well as 3.5tt hybrid being a new LS600h.

Sensors are lidar, as expected and they mention it works be level 2 and upgradable to level 3, and they need new lidar sensors for that.

Engineers need to overcome their distaste for special market vehicles, so for instance anyone wants to imagine what would be journalist response to LS700h+ with 500hp+ and 30 mile range that would give it some crazy 80mpg?

Nobody will care that you need to plug it every 50 miles to get this performance, and nobody will bother with calculating mpg after those 30 miles.
Exactly, I came to say that same words

The new LS600h is just the rumoured 3.5TT hybrid with maybe high power electric motor
 

spwolf

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he aim with PSD hybrids, that run the engine at a constant rpm, is to minimize fuel consumption.

But the aim of a turbocharged engine is to allow a smaller engine to run harder, to burn more fuel, to produce more power. Producing more power is nice, but at the cost of greater engine pressures, causing greater fuel consumption and greater engine wear? Was it not the aim -- even if it was not the primary aim -- of a PSD hybrid, to share the power load between internal combustion engine and electric drive, thereby lessening pressures on the engine, reducing engine wear and lessening fuel consumption?

Could there be other methods for increasing the effective power of the hybrid powertrain?

What about increasing the power of the electric drive motor (that may involve increasing battery capacity to ensure that there is enough electrical power available to drive the more powerful motor, which may mean that a plug-in hybrid, with its larger capacity battery, is the way to go, so give us LS 700h+)? Or coupling the PSD with a multi-speed transmission (as has already been done) to allow for torque multiplication (and faster off-the-line acceleration) in low gear and an overdrive gear for greater efficiency at high speeds?
this is all true and this is how traditional Toyota engineer thinks.
Highlander Hybrid has higher output battery but that is about the limit of what you can actually regenerate.

It works for cheaper cars but not for Lexus or very heavy vehicles like Land Cruiser, where you still have to have that performance.

Also, having a lot more torque at 1800 rpm, would end up with engine running a lot more at 1800 rpm, as supposed to going to 4000-6000 rpm, depending on how strong did you press pedal.

Additionally, multi-speed transmission is also very complicated and expensive.
 

ssun30

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@Sulu You are right turbocharged engines are not ideal for power split when utmost efficiency is considered. But they are required for high power density applications such as performance and utility vehicles. You can't just increase battery size to get more power for a truck: the battery will eventually run out, and after that the truck needs that turbo engine to pull weight up a hill since 100% of the energy comes from the ICE. The PSD could not maintain the engine at its optimal load point in this case, since the power demand overwhelms supply (which was compensated by electric assist when SOC is above threshold).
 

Berto3818

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@Sebass I think all that will be done. I think they could possibly fix the headroom issue as well. I think it will get the TTV6 Hybrid that will give it a much needed performance boost and add the hybrid motors your looking at close to 500hp and lots or torque. which would be enough. I think they will do way with the cvt and put the 10 speed in it also. this will fix lots of issues.
 

Berto3818

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@Airplane - i think the NA V6 is going to be gone and we will see dramatic gains with the new power train and hybrid. its going to solve a lot of the performance issues the the hybrid has been having. I was going to get the gas model but if they do this I will get the hybrid.
 

Sulu

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this is all true and this is how traditional Toyota engineer thinks.
Highlander Hybrid has higher output battery but that is about the limit of what you can actually regenerate.

It works for cheaper cars but not for Lexus or very heavy vehicles like Land Cruiser, where you still have to have that performance.

Also, having a lot more torque at 1800 rpm, would end up with engine running a lot more at 1800 rpm, as supposed to going to 4000-6000 rpm, depending on how strong did you press pedal.

Additionally, multi-speed transmission is also very complicated and expensive.
@Sulu You are right turbocharged engines are not ideal for power split when utmost efficiency is considered. But they are required for high power density applications such as performance and utility vehicles. You can't just increase battery size to get more power for a truck: the battery will eventually run out, and after that the truck needs that turbo engine to pull weight up a hill since 100% of the energy comes from the ICE. The PSD could not maintain the engine at its optimal load point in this case, since the power demand overwhelms supply (which was compensated by electric assist when SOC is above threshold).
So @spwolf, @ssun30, you are both saying that a turbocharged hybrid would be for truck use. I can understand that. But it would seem that the simpler P2 parallel hybrid (that the Germans use and that Ford is now also using) would a better fit for this type of use.

Ford and Toyota were cooperating on designing a hybrid system for heavy truck use but stopped the joint venture before a product was shown. Ford went with the simpler P2 parallel hybrid and Toyota -- as I understand it -- developed the complex Multi-Stage Hybrid for truck use but introduced it on the LS and LC Hybrids before using it on Toyota and Lexus trucks.

I think that if Toyota introduces a turbocharged hybrid, it really needs the multi-speed gearbox (i.e. the Multi-Stage Hybrid, knowing that Toyota will stick with PSD hybrids) for the fine-tuning required to maintain high fuel efficiency with the turbocharged ICE power source.
 

ssun30

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So @spwolf, @ssun30, you are both saying that a turbocharged hybrid would be for truck use. I can understand that. But it would seem that the simpler P2 parallel hybrid (that the Germans use and that Ford is now also using) would a better fit for this type of use.
That's my opinion as well. I mentioned somewhere else on this forum that P2 is superior for power density and continuous output. This is why I still can't say with certainty what hybrid layout they will use for the upcoming hybrid trucks. After all they developed a P2 system for their Hino trucks.
 

Carmaker1

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As usual, where are the American and European media on this tidbit? Nowhere to be found or copying Mag X/Lexus Enthusiast. My people this is what I mean. Trust the Japanese media and don't look back. You own a Japanese car, in most instances they'll know more in being closer to the center of power.

This is exactly what happened 4LS updates to the XF40 III in 2012. You got spy shots in March 2012, which NO ONE knew about and saw nada until May 2012. Ditto for more Lexus vehicles. They are always first, whether or not they publish them.

Anyway, I am off by a few months it seems. Not really good that launch was in January-Feb 2018 and a facelift is already here in less than 3 years, but it's definitely needed and welcome. The quickest Lexus refresh ever lol or does anyone remember a quicker facelift than this? (don't mention 1996 1GS lol)
 

maiaramdan

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Honestly guys

And I am owner of the GS-F

But

I test driven the latest LS F sport AWD and I feel it has the same nimble steering and nearly taking the corners same as the normal GS

So I feel it is more GS than LS

Maybe just Maybe

If they will sell this as GS-L and sell the Century as LS with the Crown being the normal GS it will work perfectly

Because honestly that's exactly what I am looking how things are done right now
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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A thought that crossed my mind this morning: Might the 4-cylinder powertrain for 5LS be a longitudinal application of the RAV4 Prime / upcoming Lexus NX 450h+ power plant? In other words, a plug-in hybrid version of the A25A-FXS 2.5-liter 4-cylinder naturally aspirated engine that (in the RAV4 Prime) produces 302 hp? Thus, an LS 450h+?
 

Airplane

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A thought that crossed my mind this morning: Might the 4-cylinder powertrain for 5LS be a longitudinal application of the RAV4 Prime / upcoming Lexus NX 450h+ power plant? In other words, a plug-in hybrid version of the A25A-FXS 2.5-liter 4-cylinder naturally aspirated engine that (in the RAV4 Prime) produces 302 hp? Thus, an LS 450h+?
NA 2.5l 4 cylinder PHEV with 300hp called LS450h+? Whattt? That’s a 200 name jump from what it would normally be called “LS250” a flagship with the exact same setup as a RAV4 is weird to say the least.

I don’t think they’ll have a 4 cylinder LS at all. a setup like that is most reasonable for China’s market, but it might as well be a pure BEV.
 

mediumhot

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Doesn’t the LS350 already makes 310hp with its 3.5NAV6?

The current LS500h already uses 3.5l NAV6 hybrid, and it uses an outdated V6 that isn’t worth the name when the LS500 makes more power. So a new TTV6 hybrid will most likely still be called LS500h, while the non hybrid LS500 gets removed or gets downgraded to LS400, and the LS350 gets 2.4l turbo and downgraded to LS300.

Or LS500h and LS600h both get the same TTV6 hybrid but with different tuning, with 400hp and 500hp respectively.

If they do make a 500+hp LS, might as well use the 600 hp+ TTV8 4.0l PHEV that would be extremely powerful yet efficient, and call it LSF instead of LS700h which sounds weird as hell and isn’t justified when it’s barely more powerful than the LS500.
I think it’s time to make a real flagship performance sedan that also give Lexus an opportunity to show off their hybrid tech.
I'm not sure Lexus has anymore leeway to play with the badges once more. They learned their lesson with 200t to 300 and if they are reasonable people they will not repeat the same mistake again and for sure they will not downsize the badges. 500h will remain what it is today and 600h will be more expensive, more powerful option. If it ends up being V6TT Hybrid (most likely) I'm not sure how they are going to differentiate it from the version that will go into Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser or similar. Who knows maybe 600h will be V8TT hybrid after all.
 

spwolf

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A thought that crossed my mind this morning: Might the 4-cylinder powertrain for 5LS be a longitudinal application of the RAV4 Prime / upcoming Lexus NX 450h+ power plant? In other words, a plug-in hybrid version of the A25A-FXS 2.5-liter 4-cylinder naturally aspirated engine that (in the RAV4 Prime) produces 302 hp? Thus, an LS 450h+?
you have to remember that it will eventually (and fairly quickly) run out of that stored energy, so you are then left with maybe 240hp total... like a Highlander?

And that is not good enough for LS. It would be slower car than Camry Hybrid, when out of EV range.

Now 300hp turbo as a base engine and then 60-120hp from hybrid/+ version, that is something else of course, and that would work very well.
 
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